The 2023 Draft - Hindsight Picks

[Skinsinparadise]

Keaton Mitchell, Merriweather were too of my favs as late rounders-UDFA types.  Ivan Pace obviously too but I thought he'd go in the mid rounds.

 

I liked Tucker too but if I recall @KDawg especially did? 

 

This all is coming to head on an obvious point.  We should petition Josh Harris to allow the draft thread paticipants to select their UDFAs.  Just give us a pool of money Josh and watch us go to work.  SB, within 2 years. 😎

 

 

 

 

20 hours ago, Going Commando said:

Harrison will have to be clearly better than Forbes to make me wish we had picked him instead.  Forbes has Probowl upside at corner, that is game changing value for a defense.  But even if they both become Pro-Bowlers, put a Probowler in at RT and that's not transforming the offense.

 

The position value doesn't really match up, and on top of that, I think Forbes is going to be a better player without considering position value.  Gotta go BPA even if it seems like a luxury pick.  Today's luxury picks are tomorrow's foundation players you build your whole roster around.  Today's need picks are the picks you're trying to upgrade before their rookie contracts are up.

 

As you know Harrison has the length to play LT.  That's what he played in college last year so that's where I think he ends up in the end in his career.

 

I don't think Ron can afford to swap apples to apples another big time defender (if it translates that way) over a big time O lineman (if it translates that way).  There is so many we thought Jamin Davis would help the team over Darrisaw moves he can make and surivive it if the O line derails their seasons.  But will see.  

Edited September 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

39 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keaton Mitchell, Merriweather were too of my favs as late rounders-UDFA types.  Ivan Pace obviously too but I thought he'd go in the mid rounds.

 

I liked Tucker too but if I recall @KDawg especially did? 

 

This all is coming to head on an obvious point.  We should petition Josh Harris to allow the draft thread paticipants to select their UDFAs.  Just give us a pool of money Josh and watch us go to work.  SB, within 2 years. 😎

 

 

 

 

 

As you know Harrison has the length to play LT.  That's what he played in college last year so that's where I think he ends up in the end in his career.

 

I don't think Ron can afford to swap apples to apples another big time defender (if it translates that way) over a big time O lineman (if it translates that way).  There is so many we thought Jamin Davis would help the team over Darrisaw moves he can make and surivive it if the O line derails their seasons.  But will see.  

Agreed on Anton at LT, there also would have been other players because I don't see the team taking him unless there were to be a trade down. Anton should be a hell of a LT moving forward. While not on the same level as Forbes of course, the draft was loaded with other CB talent. IMO, Harrison and lets say Brents (and a later round player lets say S. Dennis) > Forbes.  And yes of course the Darrisaw decision which was a poor move. Now if Jamin turns out to be a perennial pro-bower, maybe I will eat my words but that was a decisive reach for need pick which we all have grown to hate around here. 

 

Regarding the undrafted list, there's no denying our boards draftniks nailed a lot of them of course leading the way was Pace and Riks.

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Agreed on Anton at LT, there also would have been other players because I don't see the team taking him unless there were to be a trade down. Anton should be a hell of a LT moving forward. While not on the same level as Forbes of course, the draft was loaded with other CB talent. IMO, Harrison and lets say Brents (and a later round player lets say S. Dennis) > Forbes.  And yes of course the Darrisaw decision which was a poor move. Now if Jamin turns out to be a perennial pro-bower, maybe I will eat my words but that was a decisive reach for need pick which we all have grown to hate around here. 

 

Regarding the undrafted list, there's no denying our boards draftniks nailed a lot of them of course leading the way was Pace and Riks.

 

With both time will tell.  I know Forbes got plenty of hype early in camp, I noticed it tapered off some and even optimistic Logan Paulsen said recently temper your breaks on Forbes, he likes him but want to see how it plays out with the real bullets flying.

 

I am sure it will be ditto with Anton Harrison.  

 

Chase over Andrew Thomas.  I get it.  I agreed with that too at the time.  But alas Thomas right now is clearly the better player.

Jamin Davis over Darrisaw.  That one is another clear loss at the moment.  Darrisaw is the better player.

Forbes over Harrison.  TBD

 

Trent you want a big contract, out of here.  Morgam Moses see ya.  Scherff bye. And I am ok with all of that if its reinvested back.  But nope.  That capital won't be reinvested in the O line - not money, not high draft capital.

 

For Ron is defense takes priority by a mile over the O line.  Maybe this time he will be vindicated for it.  But I suspect it will be his coaching epitaph -- if only he had more balance about the two spots.   For any other team Forbes over Harrison or Quan Martin over Mauch is fine.  But when its Ron it fits a pathology that i believe will rightfully cost him his job in 2024.

 

I love having a great defense.  but you are building a full roster not just one unit.  Balance! 😎

]]

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

9 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

With both time will tell.  I know Forbes got plenty of hype early in camp, I noticed it tapered off some and even optimistic Logan Paulsen said recently temper your breaks on Forbes, he likes him but want to see how it plays out with the real bullets flying.

 

I am sure it will be ditto with Anton Harrison.  

 

Chase over Andrew Thomas.  I get it.  I agreed with that too at the time.  But alas Thomas right now is clearly the better player.

Jamin Davis over Darrisaw.  That one is another clear loss at the moment.  Darrisaw is the better player.

Forbes over Harrison.  TBD

 

Trent you want a big contract, out of here.  Morgam Moses see ya.  Scherff bye. And I am ok with all of that if its reinvested back.  But nope.  That capital won't be reinvested in the O line - not money, not high draft capital.

 

For Ron is defense takes priority by a mile over the O line.  Maybe this time he will be vindicated for it.  But I suspect it will be his coaching epitaph -- if only he had more balance about the two spots.   For any other team Forbes over Harrison or Quan Martin over Mauch is fine.  But when its Ron it fits a pathology that i believe will rightfully cost him his job in 2024.

 

I love having a great defense.  but you are building a full roster not just one unit.  Balance! 😎

]]

 

I agree with time will tell. I feel the first two were far greater gaffs than the Forbes/Harrison decision.

 

To me they were like no brainers even though most don't agree when it comes to Chase. Our needs far exceeded Chase, with no means to satisfy them properly unless a trade down occurred. I would have bee thrilled if of they had ended out with Wirfs at RT with all the other players they would have reaped fro the trade. The other two draft decisions would have been so much easier because our wants would have outweighed any needs for a change. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, DWinzit said:

I agree with time will tell. I feel the first two were far greater gaffs than the Forbes/Harrison decision.

 

To me they were like no brainers even though most don't agree when it comes to Chase. Our needs far exceeded Chase, with no means to satisfy them properly unless a trade down occurred. I would have bee thrilled if of they had ended out with Wirfs at RT with all the other players they would have reaped fro the trade. The other two draft decisions would have been so much easier because our wants would have outweighed any needs for a change. 

 

I agree.  And look I got no idea if Forbes ends up better or worse than Harrison.

 

But I've seen enough of a narrative that I don't trust Ron's judgement when it comes to making decisions relating to the O line.

 

I can let go seeing an unhealthy person eat a donut or two but if its donut after donut over the years and they had a heart attack -- while they explain afterwards they are justfied to eat another donut yet, again.  I am skeptical.

[KDawg]

I don’t mind Forbes when we picked. Elite ballhawk vs. a 4th-5th ranked tackle.

 

Tough to be upset.

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t mind Forbes when we picked. Elite ballhawk vs. a 4th-5th ranked tackle.

 

Tough to be upset.

 

I recall you weren't a big Anton guy but you didn't dislike him.  i am not fixated at all by any specific pick.  But instead by the pattern of forgoing o line early for years.   

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I recall you weren't a big Anton guy but you didn't dislike him.  i am not fixated at all by any specific pick.  But instead by the pattern of forgoing o line early for years.   

 

I'm fairly fixated on our second round choice. And it has nothing to do with WHO we took. I like Quan. I think he's going to struggle a bit but I think he has the skillset to develop.

 

It's who we didn't pick.

Edited September 4, 2023 by KDawg

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

I'm fairly fixated on our second round choice. And it has nothing to do with WHO we took. I like Quan. I think he's going to struggle a bit but I think he has the skillset to develop.

 

It's who we didn't pick.

 

Am with you on that.  And I am high on Quan.  But to me Ron not favoring O line is a pattern.  This season and prior seasons, too.

[Going Commando]

14 hours ago, DWinzit said:

Now if Jamin turns out to be a perennial pro-bower, maybe I will eat my words but that was a decisive reach for need pick which we all have grown to hate around here. 

 

Do we all hate reaching for needs around here?  I don't think so.  Often times I find myself going against the consensus on our picks when I call them reaches, or defend BPA picks against claims that they were wasteful luxuries.  That's exactly what is happening in this thread, and every single year I have to relitigate the value and wisdom of BPA drafting in the draft thread, while 3/4 of the posts there are discussions about what positions we need that year.

 

Jamin was definitely a reach and a bad draft pick.  And I absolutely remember going against the consensus in criticizing that pick from the moment it happened.  It was to the point where there was an absurd defense that reaches couldn't exist.  I'm not interested in defending that pick, nor am I interested in seeing some of the people who defended it at the time use it as a cudgel against Rivera's FO now.  The exact problem with the Jamin pick was he was a reach to fill an immediate need, and he is exactly what I mean when I say today's reaches are tomorrow's players you're trying to upgrade before their rookie deals are even done.  That is why I can not agree that they should have reached to fill needs on the OL this year, and most of the alternative draft plans for going OL in the first two rounds involve those kind of reaches IMO.  But as bad a reach as Jamin was, Cosmi was a big value pick in round two.  And Charles has a chance to be a pretty big value pick from the year before.  Mauch was the only OL with decent value at 47, none were value at 16, and I'm not worried about passing over one short armed tackle from a small school that has struggled to translate their players to the NFL.  I'm not worried about us passing on a 380 pound tackle who flaked on his job interview with us either, and he was my favorite OL in the class.  Instead I'm mainly just glad we made some BPA choices and didn't reach for dudes like Avila or Blake Freeland. That's good enough work to keep building on what we have and ensuring progress.  The roster is definitively better this year than last IMO, and I think there will come a day in the near future when Forbes and Quan are two of the best players in the team.

[KDawg]

3 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

Do we all hate reaching for needs around here?  I don't think so.  Often times I find myself going against the consensus on our picks when I call them reaches, or defend BPA picks against claims that they were wasteful luxuries.  That's exactly what is happening in this thread, and every single year I have to relitigate the value and wisdom of BPA drafting in the draft thread, while 3/4 of the posts there are discussions about what positions we need that year.

 

Jamin was definitely a reach and a bad draft pick.  And I absolutely remember going against the consensus in criticizing that pick from the moment it happened.  It was to the point where there was an absurd defense that reaches couldn't exist.  I'm not interested in defending that pick, nor am I interested in seeing some of the people who defended it at the time use it as a cudgel against Rivera's FO now.  The exact problem with the Jamin pick was he was a reach to fill an immediate need, and he is exactly what I mean when I say today's reaches are tomorrow's players you're trying to upgrade before their rookie deals are even done.  That is why I can not agree that they should have reached to fill needs on the OL this year, and most of the alternative draft plans for going OL in the first two rounds involve those kind of reaches IMO.  But as bad a reach as Jamin was, Cosmi was a big value pick in round two.  And Charles has a chance to be a pretty big value pick from the year before.  Mauch was the only OL with decent value at 47, none were value at 16, and I'm not worried about passing over one short armed tackle from a small school that has struggled to translate their players to the NFL.  I'm not worried about us passing on a 380 pound tackle who flaked on his job interview with us either, and he was my favorite OL in the class.  Instead I'm mainly just glad we made some BPA choices and didn't reach for dudes like Avila or Blake Freeland. That's good enough work to keep building on what we have and ensuring progress.  The roster is definitively better this year than last IMO, and I think there will come a day in the near future when Forbes and Quan are two of the best players in the team.

What you argue is that your scout prowess is better than others. Most of us didn’t want Quan over Mauch because we thought Mauch was a better player and at a position of need. Not the opposite. 

[DWinzit]

4 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

Do we all hate reaching for needs around here?  I don't think so.  Often times I find myself going against the consensus on our picks when I call them reaches, or defend BPA picks against claims that they were wasteful luxuries.  That's exactly what is happening in this thread, and every single year I have to relitigate the value and wisdom of BPA drafting in the draft thread, while 3/4 of the posts there are discussions about what positions we need that year.

 

Jamin was definitely a reach and a bad draft pick.  And I absolutely remember going against the consensus in criticizing that pick from the moment it happened.  It was to the point where there was an absurd defense that reaches couldn't exist.  I'm not interested in defending that pick, nor am I interested in seeing some of the people who defended it at the time use it as a cudgel against Rivera's FO now.  The exact problem with the Jamin pick was he was a reach to fill an immediate need, and he is exactly what I mean when I say today's reaches are tomorrow's players you're trying to upgrade before their rookie deals are even done.  That is why I can not agree that they should have reached to fill needs on the OL this year, and most of the alternative draft plans for going OL in the first two rounds involve those kind of reaches IMO.  But as bad a reach as Jamin was, Cosmi was a big value pick in round two.  And Charles has a chance to be a pretty big value pick from the year before.  Mauch was the only OL with decent value at 47, none were value at 16, and I'm not worried about passing over one short armed tackle from a small school that has struggled to translate their players to the NFL.  I'm not worried about us passing on a 380 pound tackle who flaked on his job interview with us either, and he was my favorite OL in the class.  Instead I'm mainly just glad we made some BPA choices and didn't reach for dudes like Avila or Blake Freeland. That's good enough work to keep building on what we have and ensuring progress.  The roster is definitively better this year than last IMO, and I think there will come a day in the near future when Forbes and Quan are two of the best players in the team.

I'm a little confused by your post but I think I agree...? No one likes picks that are reaches.

 

Jamin was a bad player to reach for in the first round. Darrisaw which most of the board screamed for would have filled a big need and was amazingly available and should have been BPA, he was on mine.

 

I would have disliked a reach like Avila or Feeland, heck i really didn't like the players. If Avila was a really good G/C I would have been fine with them moving up a few selections for him as it would be filling a great need in a week class with a good player, but IMO he isn't that great. Mauch would have been a good selection, graded out well at the spot, and filled the teams biggest need...any legit OL. I applauded the Cosmi pick as I did the Charles pick. They were quality picks that fell to us. 

 

Can't wait to see how the season plays out and on to next years draft. Sure hope the OL shows up looking good this year.I didn't like the Daniels selection for our OL. It is unfortunate he was injured but I am eh with the selection. I don't mind Stromberg and think he works out but I didn't love the pick.

 

Over the past few years my constant complaint with the way the off season has been handled has been they go into the draft with tons of major holes. I am envious of teams like the Eagles who go in without big needs as they addressed big needs in FA. They can go BPA or they can move themselves around the draft to get the players that best fit their weaker areas based on the talent pool of the draft. They do that while still sock piling at least one pick for the following season. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by DWinzit

[Koolblue13]

Sip was the only one talking about Jamin in the 1rst round and he wasn't completely sold on that. Darrisaw was the guy everyone wanted. I wanted Moerig and a trade down.

 

Going pure BPA is not how to build a roster. Day three yes, go BPA 100%. Day 1&2 is about finding starters to fill your roster.

 

Our roster is close and we went into this offseason needing OL and LBer and addressed it with cast offs and late round picks.

 

If we added a pass rushing LBer like Pace or Herbig and attacked the Oline at the beginning, it would have been so much better for Sam and the win loss column and the future of this team. 

 

and sitting out what could be the best TE draft we've ever seen because we have Slow Thomas at 32, Turner and Hodges who is a poor blocker and doesn't catch the ball? 

 

I like Forbes, Quan and Stromberg. I think they are all eventual starters and great players for us, but as far as team building, we flubbed this offseason and the draft. 

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, KDawg said:

What you argue is that your scout prowess is better than others. Most of us didn’t want Quan over Mauch because we thought Mauch was a better player and at a position of need. Not the opposite. 

 

I'm not arguing that.  I'm saying that I am the most consistent advocate for BPA drafting around here, and I'm also saying I won't criticize a pick that I feel was driven by BPA.  And I'm saying that I don't buy criticism of Rivera this off-season for not drafting BPA in the past, while also criticizing him for drafting BPA this spring.

 

But you're right that I appear to be lower on Mauch than the rest of you.  I liked him, but I didn't love him as most of you seem to.  But I'm not sure everyone else agrees with you that he was BPA over Quan, I think you are lower on Quan than the rest of us.  SIP has said over and over again that Quan was one of his favorite players in the class, and that his objection to picking him is based on the much greater need being at OL.  He and others have argued that, in this special case, BPA drafting is worse than need based drafting.  I'm saying that is almost never true that need drafting beats the value of BPA.  I definitely don't think most of the posters here agree with me on that.

[mhd24]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sip was the only one talking about Jamin in the 1rst round and he wasn't completely sold on that. Darrisaw was the guy everyone wanted. I wanted Moerig and a trade down.

 

Going pure BPA is not how to build a roster. Day three yes, go BPA 100%. Day 1&2 is about finding starters to fill your roster.

 

Our roster is close and we went into this offseason needing OL and LBer and addressed it with cast offs and late round picks.

 

If we added a pass rushing LBer like Pace or Herbig and attacked the Oline at the beginning, it would have been so much better for Sam and the win loss column and the future of this team. 

 

and sitting out what could be the best TE draft we've ever seen because we have Slow Thomas at 32, Turner and Hodges who is a poor blocker and doesn't catch the ball? 

 

I like Forbes, Quan and Stromberg. I think they are all eventual starters and great players for us, but as far as team building, we flubbed this offseason and the draft. 

 

I would say CB was the 2nd biggest need on the roster after OL going into the off-season.  Rightly or wrongly, they used FA to address OL.  

 

BSJ has had major injury issues.  Fuller is a pending FA and on the downside of his career.  We had nothing behind them as quality depth.  You need at least 3 quality CBs at all times in today's NFL.  We tied that first game against NYG because they attacked Christian Holmes (a 7th round rookie).  Now, Holmes is properly placed as the 5th CB.  Forbes was the right pick given need and what was on the board.  

[Koolblue13]

25 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

I would say CB was the 2nd biggest need on the roster after OL going into the off-season.  Rightly or wrongly, they used FA to address OL.  

 

BSJ has had major injury issues.  Fuller is a pending FA and on the downside of his career.  We had nothing behind them as quality depth.  You need at least 3 quality CBs at all times in today's NFL.  We tied that first game against NYG because they attacked Christian Holmes (a 7th round rookie).  Now, Holmes is properly placed as the 5th CB.  Forbes was the right pick given need and what was on the board.  

Fuller and Juice are here now and healthy and this draft was loaded with CB/DB on day three, where you find guys that play slot or back up and grow into starters.

[KDawg]

29 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I'm not arguing that.  I'm saying that I am the most consistent advocate for BPA drafting around here, and I'm also saying I won't criticize a pick that I feel was driven by BPA.  And I'm saying that I don't buy criticism of Rivera this off-season for not drafting BPA in the past, while also criticizing him for drafting BPA this spring.

 

But you're right that I appear to be lower on Mauch than the rest of you.  I liked him, but I didn't love him as most of you seem to.  But I'm not sure everyone else agrees with you that he was BPA over Quan, I think you are lower on Quan than the rest of us.  SIP has said over and over again that Quan was one of his favorite players in the class, and that his objection to picking him is based on the much greater need being at OL.  He and others have argued that, in this special case, BPA drafting is worse than need based drafting.  I'm saying that is almost never true that need drafting beats the value of BPA.  I definitely don't think most of the posters here agree with me on that.

I am lower on Quan than the rest of you. I am also higher on Mauch.

 

I don’t see that you are the biggest BPA advocate here. I think there are plenty who are. But most factor need weight in as well as having vastly different rankings than you.

 

It happens. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I predicted that they would take Jamin in the first.  lol, I was the only one to predict that on the thread where a mod ran a contest on that day.  Why did I predict that?  It wasn't because I wanted Jamin at 19.  I wanted JOK or Darrisaw.  I saw Jamin as a very late first rounder but more likely 2nd round player.   But I predicted it because Ron typically drafts for need.  He telegraphed he wanted a LB and that's the one I figured would be left standing.

 

I didn't kill Ron for the pick, but didn't love it either and criticized the pick over time.  Not just as a recent criticism.  I didn't dislike Jamin as a player.  I liked him but that's a different discussion.  He was not the dude I wanted at 19.

 

This year Ron did sort of a hybrid need-BPA approach but it felt more need based.  Seems like the plan was to target 2 spots at each round and he'd take the best player available at either spot.  I put together their need based plan based on Keim commentary before every round and they followed that script almost to a tee.  The only departure was later in the draft they doubled up at edge versus taking a LB -- otherwise it went on script to a tee.

 

I got 3 problems with Ron's approach.

 

A. If its on the table for them not to add an O line starter in the draft than approach FA accordingly.  IMO they didn't do this.  He can't have his cake and eat it too on the point.  There are no brownie points for me for hey they didn't expect the board to fall where it did on O line and if they did they'd have approached FA differently.

 

If you want to rehab the spot on the team that by Ron's own admission was the code red spot to fix -- it should be all hands on deck to fix the spot.  And if they didn't prepare for a scenario where the board wouldn't fall their way on that spot -- that's 100% on them.  They do not have 2024 from me to fix that mistake.  But will see soon enough if it was mistake.  But if it turns out that it was a mistake, there is no escape for me on that point. 

 

And some evidence exists that they were surprised about what happened on draft day.  My best guess is they were surprised that Darnell Wright was gone.  I know they liked him.  We also know they liked Avila and considered trading up for him.  Mayhew even oddly openly lamented not trading up in the post draft press conference.

 

B. Ron has had a series of miscues for years at the O line spot.  He inherited one of the best O lines in the NFL and has arguably turned it into one of the worst.   So as for trusting Ron's gut about what player from another spot is better than what O lineman -- he hasn't earned my trust on that topic.

 

C.  Ron himself said in season 3 people should expect him to win and he expects to do it.  He said it during that off season with much bravado.  I gave him a pass for that.  But I am not giving him a pass for season 4.   Judging by his rhetoric which includes him multiple times (including this week) referencing getting fired -- he doesn't come off too confident about this season.  

 

If I have a new boss who is judging me heavily this year, I am stepping on the gas as opposed to running an off season where it feels like a build up for 2024.  It comes off to me a bit obnoxious and presumptous for Ron to approach the off season like he's in year 1 and 2.   As Randy Mueller, ex-GM said recently, Ron approaches the job like he's on a 10 year plan and he has all the job security in the world.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sip was the only one talking about Jamin in the 1rst round and he wasn't completely sold on that. Darrisaw was the guy everyone wanted. I wanted Moerig and a trade down.

 

 

I only talked about it in the context of what I thought Ron would do.  I think there is some association to me with that player also is because he was one of the players I liked in that draft.

 

But I didn't push for him at 19.  He wasn't my top want.  I recall saying several times especially as the draft got closer that he strikes me as a 2nd rounder.

 

Yeah I didn't blast Ron for the pick.  Because back then, I sucked it up with every Ron move and hoped he'd build a good roster.  So he got a lot of slack from me.  But its not like he was doing everything the way I liked in real time.   But he got plenty of rope from me to do it any way he liked. 

 

Ron got slack from me then.  The way he has it from @Going Commando and some others now.

 

Like you, he lost me after this draft for reasons I've explained too many times but the main reason for it was digesting the off season it felt like a build up for 2024 -- and that struck me as either being suicidal as for job security or obnoxious in how presumptous it was to just assume the new owner would give him a pass for another mediocre year.

 

And again, this assumes the season goes so so.  Will see. 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

I'm not arguing that.  I'm saying that I am the most consistent advocate for BPA drafting around here, and I'm also saying I won't criticize a pick that I feel was driven by BPA.  And I'm saying that I don't buy criticism of Rivera this off-season for not drafting BPA in the past, while also criticizing him for drafting BPA this spring.

 

But you're right that I appear to be lower on Mauch than the rest of you.  I liked him, but I didn't love him as most of you seem to.  But I'm not sure everyone else agrees with you that he was BPA over Quan, I think you are lower on Quan than the rest of us.  SIP has said over and over again that Quan was one of his favorite players in the class, and that his objection to picking him is based on the much greater need being at OL.  He and others have argued that, in this special case, BPA drafting is worse than need based drafting.  I'm saying that is almost never true that need drafting beats the value of BPA.  I definitely don't think most of the posters here agree with me on that.

 

You weren't around that last week leading to the draft but some of us posted our my guys list, top 20.  You've done it of course before, too.   It's not of course who we think are the top 20 players in the draft but dudes we like more than the typical draft geek and spent some time on dissecting.  And we try to spread it out with high draft picks, mid and late.  Here was mine.

 

So as I've mentioned Mauch was on my list, too.  The dudes who I have in bold are the ones that i thought they might take  Mauch was one of those players.

 

Look I got no idea if Mauch ends up better than Martin or vice versa.  I loved both players.  But for me the tie goes to the desperate spot.  But my larger point is its not really about one move from Ron at that spot.  It's just another example of many moves from him where O line isn't prioritized the way defense is.

 

And he has the right to do that but it better work.  It didn't work last year.  Will see if it does this year.  My point is if it doesn't work.  He gets no pass from me.  Zero.  Because he's made a series of bad choices that have led to this below average O line. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[mhd24]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

Fuller and Juice are here now and healthy and this draft was loaded with CB/DB on day three, where you find guys that play slot or back up and grow into starters.

 

BSJ has had multiple injuries (including concussions) during his tenure here.  Fuller is a pending a FA.  CB was a major need.  To simply state that any day 3 pick can become Tariq Woolan is asking a lot.  I have no issues with taking CB in the 1st after the Johnson, Skoronski, and Wright were all long gone.  Forbes wasn't going to last much longer as Baltimore & Dallas were high on him.  Our scouts had Forbes rated higher than Gonzalez.    

 

We already took Holmes last year in the 7th and he cost the us the Giants game because he was forced to play after BSJ got hurt in Houston.  You need quality secondary players.  If you want to say that OL should have been the pick at 16 regardless of the board, then that is a fine position to take. Just acknowledge that there were no trade down opportunities (the Jets spent the entire 10 minutes at 15 begging to trade down and no one offered them anything before they took Will McDonald) and take best OL on the board, irregardless of where he was rated.

[Koolblue13]

17 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

 

BSJ has had multiple injuries (including concussions) during his tenure here.  Fuller is a pending a FA.  CB was a major need.  To simply state that any day 3 pick can become Tariq Woolan is asking a lot.  I have no issues with taking CB in the 1st after the Johnson, Skoronski, and Wright were all long gone.  Forbes wasn't going to last much longer as Baltimore & Dallas were high on him.  Our scouts had Forbes rated higher than Gonzalez.    

 

We already took Holmes last year in the 7th and he cost the us the Giants game because he was forced to play after BSJ got hurt in Houston.  You need quality secondary players.  If you want to say that OL should have been the pick at 16 regardless of the board, then that is a fine position to take. Just acknowledge that there were no trade down opportunities (the Jets spent the entire 10 minutes at 15 begging to trade down and no one offered them anything before they took Will McDonald) and take best OL on the board, irregardless of where he was rated.

I'm aware of all of that. I've also said multiple times that I'm fine with the Forbes pick.

 

and the worst part about your post, is that irregardless isn't even a real word.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

On 9/3/2023 at 8:14 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's gotta be context because I'm calling BS over that Marvin Harrison Jr quote. He got open routinely against Banks. The one guy he couldn't do a damn thing against and looked visibly checked out when he had to go against him was Joey Porter Jr. Marvin Harrison Jr had to commit blatant OPI to get enough space for a single catch against Joey Porter and it almost wasn't caught.

 

I'm calling BS on that quote. It must be out of context.

[skinny21]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A. If its on the table for them not to add an O line starter in the draft than approach FA accordingly.  IMO they didn't do this.  He can't have his cake and eat it too on the point.  There are no brownie points for me for hey they didn't expect the board to fall where it did on O line and if they did they'd have approached FA differently.

 

 

 

 

IMO, they followed the usual MO (for NFL teams) in terms of going into the draft - address holes with capable players via FA, then see what the draft brings.  I think that’s exactly what Wylie/Gates represent.  Of course, whether they could have done a better job addressing the oline in general (via FA and/or the draft) is a different story… and the answer is almost certainly yes.

 

I do think they should probably should have brought in at least a cheap-ish guard to compete with Charles/Paul, particularly given Charles’ and Cosmi’s injury histories.  Maybe you wind up with some redundancy if you land a guard in the draft, but it would have been worth it IMO.  Looks like they may have gotten lucky that Stromberg can (seemingly) handle backing up Cosmi.  They did at least seem to somewhat meet their goals of getting younger and healthier on the line (I think they shaved off 10-11 years?)… who knows how the health thing works out though.

 

To be clear, I’d still have preferred they acquired a higher end talent at tackle in FA (if they could convince one to sign here).  Worst case you draft a 1st round OT and they provide quality depth this year (and compete to take over from Leno next year).

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

IMO, they followed the usual MO (for NFL teams) in terms of going into the draft - address holes with capable players via FA, then see what the draft brings.  I think that’s exactly what Wylie/Gates represent.  Of course, whether they could have done a better job addressing the oline in general (via FA and/or the draft) is a different story… and the answer is almost certainly yes.

 

I do think they should probably should have brought in at least a cheap-ish guard to compete with Charles/Paul, particularly given Charles’ and Cosmi’s injury histories.  Maybe you wind up with some redundancy if you land a guard in the draft, but it would have been worth it IMO.  Looks like they may have gotten lucky that Stromberg can (seemingly) handle backing up Cosmi.  They did at least seem to somewhat meet their goals of getting younger and healthier on the line (I think they shaved off 10-11 years?)… who knows how the health thing works out though.

 

To be clear, I’d still have preferred they acquired a higher end talent at tackle in FA (if they could convince one to sign here).  Worst case you draft a 1st round OT and they provide quality depth this year (and compete to take over from Leno next year).

 

I could debate some of these points but doing it would lose the forest for the trees.

 

Ron has made decisions over four off seasons related to the O line. He inherited a good O line.  They now aren't arguably good.

 

If they play well then Ron is vindicated.  If they don't and they don't make the playoffs -- he's not vindicated.  Simple as that.  His fate will play out organically.

 

Judging Ron on this or that latest decision isn't on point to me.  What's on point is in my mind he dug this hole.  He needs to own that.    If he needs to take extra measures to dig himself out that's on him. 

 

If people want to make the case that he didn't need to be aggressive to dig out of that hole or if it doesn't work out, its fine because you can justfiy his decisions not to be aggressive to dig out of the hole -- I disagree with that.

 

It's like a kid getting a D in a class after a series of tests and assignments and now we want to judge that kid purely by the last quiz or two.  Hey they might not have done that hot but they had the flu or the teacher's lessons weren't that clear, hence that quiz didn't go well, etc.  The point isn't about the latest quiz.  The point is about the predicament the kid dug themselves into.   It's not about the last quiz.  It's about the pressure he put on himself where that last quiz or two was critical.

Edited September 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise