CT: Increasingly under fire as potential health hazards, gas stoves could be banned in 2023, top federal official says: ‘It’s a real possibility’

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

And here I was just admiring the attempt to claim that because pans are used, therefore concentrating heat in small strips does not apply uneven heat to the food.  

 

I mean, for example, I personally have never had to scour a pan where the food has been scorched, on the inside of the pan, in the shape of the electric heating element.  Bet nobody else here ever has, either.  

 

I guess if you use cheap ass pans you are correct. Any decent pans have a large metal heat sink on the bottom of them to disperse the heat evenly. Also, scorched the pan? Learn to cook. SHAME!

[tshile]

9 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@tshile call me skeptical, man, but if this was as simple as a ventilation matter, why is the government considering a ban instead of a code requirement for ventilation systems over gas stoves?   Youd think they looked at that already, right?

Because people don’t follow code. 
 

and just because you have a ventilation system doesn’t mean people are using it. 
 

my neighbor bought his house after we bought our property but before our house was built. The flippers remodeled it and put an downdraft island gas oven in. It vents into his basement, not outside. Not code compliant, but that’s what he’s got. 
 

we have regulations around people being stupid. I don’t need a warning to know not to eat tide pods but we got the warning anyways and people still do it. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

im not trying to proclaim i fully understand the issue at this time. But from what I can tell it’s a ventilation issue. 

[Going Commando]

Wok cooking is a **** on electric ranges, and seasoning one is impossible on an electric range but trivial on gas.  Certain things are meant for cooking on a flame and there is no way those jet engine looking burners that Chinese people use are healthier or more efficient than the gas ranges we have.  I'd be curious about what alternatives we'd have if gas ranges are banned.  I would also assume that the government would need more concrete justification than a vague metastudy about childhood asthma rates to ban ranges on health grounds.  They need to prove that it really does ruin air quality in people's homes.

 

As far as cooking goes, to me the difference with ovens is merely that gas preheats a lot faster, but it is definitely a lot easier to cook on a gas range.  So many electric ranges stay red hot forever, and just the lack of intense residual heat from the element alone makes gas a lot better to cook on.  So much easier to burn your stuff on electric, whereas on gas you only have the heat from the pan alone to worry about.

[tshile]

consider this - why are we only talking about stoves and ovens?

 

people have gas:

heat

clothes driers

water heaters 

 

so why is it only stoves/ovens, and why is outright banning them the potential move?

 

well - two things just to mind immediately because the only difference between the two sets of appliances is your oven/stove is the only one with a manual ventilation system. Everything else is routed outside with an automated fan that works and should trip the system making it inoperable if the fan (should it require one) stops working. But the oven/stove requires you to turn it on (and high enough to match usage if it’s variable). People don’t like the excess noise - also not a problem with the other appliances cause they’re not in your kitchen. 
 

also - just guessing here - but I bet people are way more likely to renovate their kitchen and swap to gas (and somewhere along the way wind up with insufficient ventilation regardless of code) than they are to replace their water heater and switch to gas; or hvac; or clothes drier. 
 

Which leads to people either not using their ventilation system properly, or it not being set up properly. 
 

If gas was the problem then they’d be talking about a lot more issues. 
 

gas also is incredibly efficient. There’s not much left. And it’s not like there’s excess gas - gas lines (even main trunks) only run in the ~2psi range.  The vast majority of a gas pipe is “empty” in terms of gas in the pipe vs total capacity the pipe can hold (for lack of taking time for a better description)

 

but that’s what my gut says when first reading about this. 
 

@Renegade7

idk this wound up in the weather thread and I cut and paste and it’s all weird now 

Edited December 24, 2022 by tshile

[tshile]

If I were to guess this solution is probably heavily influenced by apartment buildings full of gas stove/oven units 

 

and kids

 

and people who don’t use their vents and are in a small space and reliant on someone else to make sure things function correctly, were done correctly, etc. or are people who just moved in and went “oh sweet gas stove neat” and don’t understand they have to vent it. Etc. 

 

usually bans like this (assuming it’s ventilation related) are because of rampant ignorance/negligence and it being unreasonable for that to be fixed/addressed 

Edited December 24, 2022 by tshile

[ixcuincle]

I saw on the TV the other day tht gas stoves are not green or healthy because of the gas that comes out or something like that. Shame because I have a gas range here.

 

DAE also have it click click click at the start and you have to set it multiple times before you see the flame? What is up with that?

[Renegade7]

@tshile

 

I hear you, but I didn't see in the article that they tested impact of ventilation systems or not.

 

So I'll look around, but in my head they putting this out there because of the fully justified preemptive strike you mentioned in your next post:

 

Moving away from fossil fuels is going to meaning phasing out many things we grew up with that use them, whether we like it or not. 

 

That includes appliances in our house, lawn mowers, the question will be will it be California or Federal government who bans stuff like this first.

 

This was coming whether we liked it or not, so whether it's a ventilation system or not, a ban on gas powered household appliances like water heaters was inevitable.   Making arguments for or agaisnt doing this or how is like fighting fighting a rip tide, better rid with it and see where appropriate to make more attempts to swim to shore. 

 

Fighting gravity may be a more appropriate analogy, I wouldn't buy a house with gas anything knowing this is coming in some way shape or form.

[tshile]

3 minutes ago, ixcuincle said:

DAE also have it click click click at the start and you have to set it multiple times before you see the flame? What is up with that?

That’s it lighting the gas. If it struggles you may be not pushing it enough or too much or something so it can’t light. 

@Renegade7

i sure as hell hope they’re not trying to ban gas stoves saying it puts your kids at risk to a respiratory issue, as a lie to push the green energy agenda

 

thsts going to backfire like crazy if so. 

[China]

3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

@tshile

 

I hear you, but I didn't see in the article that they tested impact of ventilation systems or not.

 

 

 

In the article they didn't specify whether the studies cited the impact of ventilation systems other than stating this conclusion:

 

Quote

Good ventilation systems can reduce the health risks of cooking with gas. But Trumka said it’s important that your stove’s exhaust hood connects to a vent outside your home.

 

[Renegade7]

16 minutes ago, tshile said:

That’s it lighting the gas. If it struggles you may be not pushing it enough or too much or something so it can’t light. 

@Renegade7

 

i sure as hell hope they’re not trying to ban gas stoves saying it puts your kids at risk to a respiratory issue, as a lie to push the green energy agenda

 

thsts going to backfire like crazy if so. 

 

A lie?  It's probably part of the larger white papers they referenced to in the article.

 

They don't need to lie, the future is a world as little tied fossil fuels as possible.

 

Total expect articles like these to come out that government is researching different reason to help with their justifications for incoming law changes. 

 

I'm fine with them doing their homework on pluses or minuses of what to phase or not phase or, ban or not ban, versus simply saying we need to save the Earth (because it will always come back to a cumulative lists of questions and answers to how specificly to do that).

 

Feel like I'm repeating myself here, but is anyone really hoping they get to keep their gas stove while the world is clearly moving away from fossil fuels?  I don't blame you, but don't expect it to be any easier then an insistence on only driving gas powered vehicles in 20-30 years after more of the pledges to get away from selling new ones goes in effect.

 

Again, fighting gravity.

 

Edited December 24, 2022 by Renegade7

[Larry]

21 minutes ago, tshile said:

consider this - why are we only talking about stoves and ovens?

 

people have gas:

heat

clothes driers

water heaters 

 

All of which, in my experience, are vented outside?  

 

Just a thought.  

[tshile]

Just now, Larry said:

 

All of which, in my experience, are vented outside?  

 

Just a thought.  

Have you read anything else I posted? Cause… yeah that’s what I said. I also said it in the post, you chopped it out

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, China said:

 

In the article they didn't specify whether the studies cited the impact of ventilation systems other than stating this conclusion:

 

Yea, if they gonna throw out numbers like 400%, I'd like to see the reduced risk to help keep conversation honest (they should've done that in the article or where to find it)

[tshile]

Your gas stove/oven should be vented outside too

Also on the subject - gas heat > heat pump

 

**** heat pumps. Thankfully they’ll likely ban future manufacturing and installation and I won’t have to deal with it. They’re not gonna force people to retrofit. They never really do. 

[Renegade7]

8 minutes ago, tshile said:

Your gas stove/oven should be vented outside too

Also on the subject - gas heat > heat pump

 

**** heat pumps. Thankfully they’ll likely ban future manufacturing and installation and I won’t have to deal with it. They’re not gonna force people to retrofit. They never really do. 

 

Curious what your gripe is with heat pumps (potential home buyer here soon).

 

Also, it's more likely government puts timelines to ban sale of gas versions of household appliances instead of a law forcing a replacement or getting house to be changed to handle it.

 

Basically a future where it's not specificly said but left with little other options if the house does need to be retrofitted.

Edited December 24, 2022 by Renegade7

[tshile]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

Curious what your gripe is with heat pumps (potential home buyer here soon).

They suck and when you need them the most they’re not more efficient. 
 

they started as a thing in the south because the climate was ok for them and they cost less to heat your house when it’s 50* outside than gas. 
 

but they’ve crept north as their supposed efficiency drove decision making. Now you have them in Virginia where in winter they go into emergency heat mode and can cost soooo much. 
 

but also heat pumps push air <98.7 degrees. It’s usually not that much more than 70/80. For some people, like me, that makes it feel cold and drafty because the heat is still less than your body temp. Gas/oil, even radiator, heat is hot. It feels hot. I’m cold when it’s 72 in the house and the heat pump is working but I’m nice and comfy when it’s in gas mode at the same temp. 
 

I set mine to kick over to gas at 45. Most people recommend 37ish. It costs me more to heat when it’s 40-45 but im way more comfortable. And I have spray foam insulation. We’re talking about 10$ a month difference. My house is so well insulated it actually doesn’t make sense to adjust the temp (like 68 in the winter 74 in the summer) like I’m used to people doing. It also doesn’t make sense to have it automatically dip while we’re at work. All that does is make out furniture cold (takes longer to warm up than air.)

 

so. I’m dubious it makes sense in many situations. But I hate them because I still feel cold when they’re running the heat. 

[EmirOfShmo]

I would say the majority of homes built in the RVA area that have gas stoves/ovens are NOT directly vented outside. I'm in my 3rd house and none are/were vented outside. Our current house has propane for the stove & hot water (on demand). I think if you have a 'commercial' gas stove in your house it has to be vented outside. The 1950s house I grew up in with gas everything (including air conditioner) had the exhaust fan in the kitchen wall that vented to the outside.

[skinsmarydu]

34 minutes ago, tshile said:

They suck and when you need them the most they’re not more efficient. 
 

they started as a thing in the south because the climate was ok for them and they cost less to heat your house when it’s 50* outside than gas. 
 

but they’ve crept north as their supposed efficiency drove decision making. Now you have them in Virginia where in winter they go into emergency heat mode and can cost soooo much. 
 

but also heat pumps push air <98.7 degrees. It’s usually not that much more than 70/80. For some people, like me, that makes it feel cold and drafty because the heat is still less than your body temp. Gas/oil, even radiator, heat is hot. It feels hot. I’m cold when it’s 72 in the house and the heat pump is working but I’m nice and comfy when it’s in gas mode at the same temp. 
 

I set mine to kick over to gas at 45. Most people recommend 37ish. It costs me more to heat when it’s 40-45 but im way more comfortable. And I have spray foam insulation. We’re talking about 10$ a month difference. My house is so well insulated it actually doesn’t make sense to adjust the temp (like 68 in the winter 74 in the summer) like I’m used to people doing. It also doesn’t make sense to have it automatically dip while we’re at work. All that does is make out furniture cold (takes longer to warm up than air.)

 

so. I’m dubious it makes sense in many situations. But I hate them because I still feel cold when they’re running the heat. 

My house (before I moved to this one that I absolutely hate...stairs) had a heat pump.  I ended up going with level billing after they de-regulated gas companies here.  They compete for your business, offering different $/therm. 

But I also watched Jimmy Carter's "put on a sweater" speech, and I'm equipped to do that, so I don't spend more than I need to.

[PleaseBlitz]

I just bought a new gas stove 2 weeks ago since everything has been on sale. 

[tshile]

21 minutes ago, EmirOfShmo said:

I'm in my 3rd house and none are/were vented outside

I may have it wrong but damn I thought everything gas had to be vented directly outside by Va building code. 🤷‍♂️ 

 

if they don’t then no wonder this is an issue 😂 

Edited December 24, 2022 by tshile

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

@tshile

 

I hear you, but I didn't see in the article that they tested impact of ventilation systems or not.

 

So I'll look around, but in my head they putting this out there because of the fully justified preemptive strike you mentioned in your next post:

 

Moving away from fossil fuels is going to meaning phasing out many things we grew up with that use them, whether we like it or not. 

 

That includes appliances in our house, lawn mowers, the question will be will it be California or Federal government who bans stuff like this first.

 

This was coming whether we liked it or not, so whether it's a ventilation system or not, a ban on gas powered household appliances like water heaters was inevitable.   Making arguments for or agaisnt doing this or how is like fighting fighting a rip tide, better rid with it and see where appropriate to make more attempts to swim to shore. 

 

Fighting gravity may be a more appropriate analogy, I wouldn't buy a house with gas anything knowing this is coming in some way shape or form.

Natural gas isn’t the same as gasoline. Or oil heat. It will be a long time before power generation moves away from natural gas, so if you are using electric you are using natural gas, except you are introducing inefficiency due to energy loss.

[Renegade7]

23 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Natural gas isn’t the same as gasoline. Or oil heat. It will be a long time before power generation moves away from natural gas, so if you are using electric you are using natural gas, except you are introducing inefficiency due to energy loss.

 

We have no choice but to move away from Natural Gas in a similar timeline to oil because it's mostly methane and that's a worse greenhouse gas then even CO2.

[CousinsCowgirl84]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

We have no choice but to move away from Natural Gas in a similar timeline to oil because it's mostly methane and that's a worse greenhouse gas then even CO2.

Won’t be happening in your grandchildren’s life time. They are still building new plants with life spans of 50-100 years.

 

Solar and wind can’t produce enough electricity everywhere and nuclear is too scary so natural gas is the cleanest option

Edited December 24, 2022 by CousinsCowgirl84

[PokerPacker]

In defense of heat pumps, they ARE largely very efficient, except when temperatures get REALLY low.  And modern heat pumps work better at lower temperatures than the heat pumps of old.  And heat pumps use the exact same technology as Air Conditioning, but in reverse, so you can just get an AC that also will reverse the process for a combined system rather than buying a separate system for both.  And if you're concerned about the efficiency when temperatures drop too much, how about fallback heating system (such as gas) that you can use for those handful of days per year when the heat-pump is less than ideal?

[Renegade7]

Just now, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Won’t be happening in your grandchildren’s life time. They are still building new plants with life spans of 50-100 years.

 

We all gonna die then.

 

China is still making coal plants, that doesn't make it right or mean it can't come to a screeching halt if they want to, either.