Next Day Thread: Lions Command Respect

[Warhead36]

7 minutes ago, Alexa said:

Allen is not a top 5 tackle. He may be paid like one but he is not top 5. No way. 

Take Aaron Donald out of it as he's on a tier of his own. I'd rank Allen in the tier behind him, along with the other studs like Cameron Heyward, Chris Jones, and Jeffrey Simmons.

[IrepDC]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

I agree with the last paragraph. So let's use that: It is the players responsibility to get off of the jam. However, this is where I agree with you: Why use those concepts if we are struggling to get off the jam? This is where Rivera's "we have to put guys in position" comments actually make sense.

 

Use short motions, get guys off the line, use a larger point man that excels at clearing jams, use a shiftier guy that is an excellent release guy to clear the jam, or just avoid that concept from that formation and use running backs to create the concepts you are trying to create.

 

But Turner has done a masterful job of getting guys open in most situations. 

 

I don't believe this happened on the play we are talking on but I'd have to go back and watch again. It may have. But I think someone ran the wrong route, or at least that was my immediate thought on seeing it in real time. 

I started to break down the Lions film, but haven't gotten to that play yet. I'll admit if I was wrong when I check it. If you look at my overall posting stance, I like Turner. I realized he has more potential than I originally thought. But also, he has to trim the fat from his play book and grow as a play caller.

 

The Lions were blitz happy and extremely aggressive in the first half, and instead of switching to a quick passing game we continued to run scripted plays into a wall. I'm not condemning Turner, but I know he can do better. I focus on the offense more than the defense in my critique because at least the offensive issues, I believe, can be fixed. 

 

Our defense is doomed.

[Ball Security]

My question is why when St Brown runs a jet sweep and Sweat doesn’t set the edge he gets 49 yards.  But when McLaurin runs it and turns the corner, Detroit’s back seven rallies and holds him to seven yards?

[dyst]

Just now, Ball Security said:

My question is why when St Brown runs a jet sweep and Sweat doesn’t set the edge he gets 49 yards.  But when McLaurin runs it and turns the corner, Detroit’s back seven rallies and holds him to seven yards?

We suck?

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, IrepDC said:

I started to break down the Lions film, but haven't gotten to that play yet. I'll admit if I was wrong when I check it. If you look at my overall posting stance, I like Turner. I realized he has more potential than I originally thought. But also, he has to trim the fat from his play book and grow as a play caller.

 

The Lions were blitz happy and extremely aggressive in the first half, and instead of switching to a quick passing game we continued to run scripted plays into a wall. I'm not condemning Turner, but I know he can do better. I focus on the offense more than the defense in my critique because at least the offensive issues, I believe, can be fixed. 

 

Our defense is doomed.

 

Absolutely agreed here, too, for what it's worth. Sticking to the script is a waste of time. I actually don't believe in scripting, either. I believe in having formations you want to run in the first set of downs or the first few sets of downs to see how a defense responds. But scripting plays is fairly antiquated. 

[IrepDC]

4 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

Three illegal shifts pre snap do get kind of confusing for defenses haha that was a weird sequence. Our DBs are clueless but that play was very weird.

Disclaimer: WE LOST THE GAME OURSELVES

 

But also, in reference to the St. Brown blown coverage play, NFL refs are still terrible. Multiple illegal shifts ignored pre snap haha.

[Warhead36]

12 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Absolutely agreed here, too, for what it's worth. Sticking to the script is a waste of time. I actually don't believe in scripting, either. I believe in having formations you want to run in the first set of downs or the first few sets of downs to see how a defense responds. But scripting plays is fairly antiquated. 

I'm fine with scripting plays to get yourself into a comfortable rhythm early but you wanna be flexible. If you script say a running play as your second play but the defense puts nine in the box, have the flexibility to audible to a pass. Stuff like that.

[Going Commando]

2 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Davis also doesn't process information well at all. 

 

Holcomb is pretty damn dumb too, and he went to UNC.

 

We could probably safely cover everything and just say Jon Allen is the only smart guy on the defense.  Chase comes off as pretty smart too, but a DE isn't exactly in position to field general your D.

 

It's not just an issue of football/general IQ though.  We have leadership and communication problems too.  I don't care what the players say about how good their communication is, they're not ****ing doing it and you can see it in the results.  You could tell from the Cole Holcomb mic'd up clips from week 1 that all he's doing out there is grunting.  That is not a green dot linebacker captain.  The fact that he's in this position is an indictment of our leadership on D.

[Ball Security]

So a second year guy who saw limited snaps last year is openly calling out the DC (I agree with his assessment, btw).  Is there going to be any backlash there?

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

So a second year guy who saw limited snaps last year is openly calling out the DC (I agree with his assessment, btw).  Is there going to be any backlash there?

Who?

[Warhead36]

12 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Holcomb is pretty damn dumb too, and he went to UNC.

 

We could probably safely cover everything and just say Jon Allen is the only smart guy on the defense.  Chase comes off as pretty smart too, but a DE isn't exactly in position to field general your D.

 

It's not just an issue of football/general IQ though.  We have leadership and communication problems too.  I don't care what the players say about how good their communication is, they're not ****ing doing it and you can see it in the results.  You could tell from the Cole Holcomb mic'd up clips from week 1 that all he's doing out there is grunting.  That is not a green dot linebacker captain.  The fact that he's in this position is an indictment of our leadership on D.

Holcomb would be a fine SSLB playing next to a London Fletcher type MLB. Not a star or anything, but serviceable and not a complete liability.

 

We should have went harder after Bobby Wagner, although I doubt he'd come here over the Rams.

6 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Who?

Darrick Forest. Basically called out JDR and the schemes.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Holcomb would be a fine SSLB playing next to a London Fletcher type MLB. Not a star or anything, but serviceable and not a complete liability.

 

We should have went harder after Bobby Wagner, although I doubt he'd come here over the Rams.

Darrick Forest. Basically called out JDR and the schemes.

 

In that case I think there should be some backlash. Not to say he is necessarily wrong (or not), but doing it in an open forum is not the way for a second year guy to go about his business.

 

But Del Rio doesn't hold his tongue, either, so... Tough situation.

 

Easy answer is that Del Rio should have been moved on from previously and maybe guys wouldn't feel so free to speak out.

[Rex Tomb]

24 minutes ago, IrepDC said:

The Lions were blitz happy and extremely aggressive in the first half, and instead of switching to a quick passing game we continued to run scripted plays into a wall. I'm not condemning Turner, but I know he can do better.

Yes, this is what I have been talking about all morning.  The lack of adjustment by the offense in the first half is just as much to blame for the outcome of the game as the defense.  Hard to win when you spot the opponent 22 points because your offense can't stay on the field.  I was calling for it all first half - where are the screens and the three step drops to get the ball out quickly?  Take advantage of the Lions' aggressiveness and force them to pull off the blitzes.  We did that in the second half and the offense got moving again.  As I've said, hopefully Turner takes this as a learning opportunity - his schemes are great, but what the hell were we doing for 30 minutes of football yesterday?  

[CjSuAvE22]

12 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

 

Darrick Forest. Basically called out JDR and the schemes.

I dunno that 3rd and 15 blitz call everyone is upset about was the right call imo 3rd and long a blitz forces the qb to get the ball out quick as oppose to down field  which is what is needed on 3rd and long, even by not getting there one of the lineman got a hand on the Ball, maccain completed got abused while others were out of position that's lack of awareness on the players imo. But to each their own I don't think firing JDR drastically improves this defense.

Edited September 19, 2022 by CjSuAvE22

[Warhead36]

8 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

I dunno that 3rd and 15 blitz call everyone is upset about was the right call imo 3rd and long a blitz forces the qb to get the ball out quick as oppose to down field even by not getting there one of the lineman got a hand on the Ball, moccain completed got abused while others were out of position that's lack of awareness on the players imo. But to each their own I don't think firing JDR drastically improves this defense.

I don't think firing Del Rio right now is the answer either. But the defense needs to be addressed. Either hope to sign some street FAs, make a trade, change something schematically. Because right now they're on pace to be historically bad.

[skins4eva]

6 minutes ago, Rex Tomb said:

Yes, this is what I have been talking about all morning.  The lack of adjustment by the offense in the first half is just as much to blame for the outcome of the game as the defense.  Hard to win when you spot the opponent 22 points because your offense can't stay on the field.  I was calling for it all first half - where are the screens and the three step drops to get the ball out quickly?  Take advantage of the Lions' aggressiveness and force them to pull off the blitzes.  We did that in the second half and the offense got moving again.  As I've said, hopefully Turner takes this as a learning opportunity - his schemes are great, but what the hell were we doing for 30 minutes of football yesterday?  

 

I'm not a big Scott Turner fan--I think he lacks an ability to really adjust to the realities on the field on Sunday.  The first half was a perfect example.  There needs to be far more flex built into his gameplan and it shouldn't take an entire half for an offense like ours to move the ball.  We should have a fairly quick answer for anything that a defense throws at us with our skill players..

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I don't think firing Del Rio right now is the answer either. But the defense needs to be addressed. Either hope to sign some street FAs, make a trade, change something schematically. Because right now they're on pace to be historically bad.

 

I think firing Del Rio would restore the confidence of the players.  That's not a small thing.  You can see it in the lack of consistent effort out there that guys are in part going through the motions because they don't believe in the scheme and they know they are being set up for failure.  That's a really really bad dynamic for a football team.  And Rivera would be wise to shut it down now before it begins to bleed over to the offensive side of the ball...

[Thinking Skins]

The sobering thought I woke up to hours ago and told my dad is that you're never as good as your best win and you're never as bad as your worse loss. Right now this is definitely in our worse loss category but I have always liked Ron teams because they tend to finish strong. 

 

People talk about how flat we came out (me too) and one problem is not knowing what to expect from the head coaches. I'd think that we knew less week 1 but that's not really true since Peterson has a history in this league. Campbell doesn't really, even if he coached last year. Its just one year so it makes it more difficult to plan for. 

 

The other thing is that I think they were guilty of looking ahead. I think Turner and JDR were reserving some looks thinking they could win this one without digging deep trying to keep some looks fresh for Philly. I'm not trying to save grace but this is still just one loss. We'll see how this team adapts next week. 

[Ball Security]

22 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Who?

“It was scheme,” Forrest proclaimed, per ESPN’s John Keim. “I felt like they knew exactly what we were in. It was great offensive play-calling.”

[skins4eva]

2 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

The sobering thought I woke up to hours ago and told my dad is that you're never as good as your best win and you're never as bad as your worse loss. Right now this is definitely in our worse loss category but I have always liked Ron teams because they tend to finish strong. 

 

People talk about how flat we came out (me too) and one problem is not knowing what to expect from the head coaches. I'd think that we knew less week 1 but that's not really true since Peterson has a history in this league. Campbell doesn't really, even if he coached last year. Its just one year so it makes it more difficult to plan for. 

 

The other thing is that I think they were guilty of looking ahead. I think Turner and JDR were reserving some looks thinking they could win this one without digging deep trying to keep some looks fresh for Philly. I'm not trying to save grace but this is still just one loss. We'll see how this team adapts next week. 

You're giving these guys way too much credit: I'm positive JDR isn't smart enough to think ahead.  And I'm fairly certain Turner isn't either.  JDR is an unmitigated disaster--he has proven it time and time again season after season.  When will enough be enough on that side of the ball?

[method man]

32 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Holcomb is pretty damn dumb too, and he went to UNC.

 

We could probably safely cover everything and just say Jon Allen is the only smart guy on the defense.  Chase comes off as pretty smart too, but a DE isn't exactly in position to field general your D.

 

It's not just an issue of football/general IQ though.  We have leadership and communication problems too.  I don't care what the players say about how good their communication is, they're not ****ing doing it and you can see it in the results.  You could tell from the Cole Holcomb mic'd up clips from week 1 that all he's doing out there is grunting.  That is not a green dot linebacker captain.  The fact that he's in this position is an indictment of our leadership on D.

 

I would say Curl is a smart football player as well but, yeah, outside of that none

[FLSkinz83]

I think it was Logan Paulsen who said that our defense is easy for other teams to figure out and hard for us to execute.    Sounds about right.

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, skins4eva said:

You're giving these guys way too much credit: I'm positive JDR isn't smart enough to think ahead.  And I'm fairly certain Turner isn't either.  JDR is an unmitigated disaster--he has proven it time and time again season after season.  When will enough be enough on that side of the ball?

JDR I can buy but Turner I think was trying to save stuff for Philly. It all adds up. They're in love with Carson, Game 1 was revenge against Jax / Peterson and Game 2 is revenege against Philly both teams that did him dirty. You see how vanilla we were agianst the Lions iniitially. We were all screaming for a screen pass. But tehy didn't want to do that. I think they only called one. They're trying to save stuff and win on individual matchups right now. 

 

Ron said it before week 1, he wants to see what this team is madeof. Its cool because we did see this team has something and they're not going to give up. That will win us some games in iteself. We'll see. 

 

[skins4eva]

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

I think it was Logan Paulsen who said that our defense is easy for other teams to figure out and hard for us to execute.    Sounds about right.

 

Reminds me of Churchill's quote about Hitler: "he has all of the qualities I despise and none of the vices I admire."

[skinny21]

28 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Holcomb would be a fine SSLB playing next to a London Fletcher type MLB. Not a star or anything, but serviceable and not a complete liability.

 

We should have went harder after Bobby Wagner, although I doubt he'd come here over the Rams.

Darrick Forest. Basically called out JDR and the schemes.

Yeah, I agree - I don’t think Holcomb is dumb, I just don’t think he processes at a high enough speed for the role he’s been given.  I also tend to think he would be much better behind DTs that keep him clean.

24 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

In that case I think there should be some backlash. Not to say he is necessarily wrong (or not), but doing it in an open forum is not the way for a second year guy to go about his business.

 

But Del Rio doesn't hold his tongue, either, so... Tough situation.

 

Easy answer is that Del Rio should have been moved on from previously and maybe guys wouldn't feel so free to speak out.

Maybe he should have parroted Del Rio’s comments about Davis - “Jack was ok, he could have been better”, etc.

 

[Thinking Skins]

The other thing I'd say is that Goff rose to teh occasion. Its not like he played lights out but he didn't whiff in the face of pressure and stayed tall and found the holes. It was better than I thought he was capable of. Given he only was finding 2 guys but still it was better than I expected, especially in not throwing INTs. I still feel that if we play similarly to yesterday we can win more games than we lose. I'm not saying Detroit is a world beater but they were able to go blow for blow with us. Not every team can. I am for once excited about this offense. Even during the RG3 year adn Kirk's years I wasn't confident in this team coming from behind to make it a game. We were joking on twitter that this would be a 45-0 game. But we came in and make it within a score twice and almost 3 times. If we don't miss that XP, we are driving for the tie at the end of the game after FINALLY stopping them.