Number 44 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 18 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said: Something like #16 and Payne for Fields. This would be awful, IMO. 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, Number 44 said: This would be awful, IMO. I have no idea what the cost would be. But I don't really know the value of Payne. If he has standalone R1 value, then maybe it's not that package. I'm just throwing stuff out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan66 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Number 44 said: This would be awful, IMO. Fields is not even worth the pick 16 in my mind. And we have no need for a high dollar QB who is still a? mark. Edited February 22, 2023 by skinsfan66 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 I really hope we give Payne that big money deal. As an aside I would also be fairly interested in trading for Fields to be honest. Not sure what I’d be prepared to throw at the Bears though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Est.1974 said: I really hope we give Payne that big money deal. As an aside I would also be fairly interested in trading for Fields to be honest. Not sure what I’d be prepared to throw at the Bears though. Fields has immense upside. Immense. He had absolutely no weapons this year in Chicago and a trash OL. If the Bears are smart, they'll invest their FA money and draft capital (trading down at least 1 if not 2 times) to stockpile talent on offense. I DO understand the move if they decide to take Young. He's a huge upside talent and the current regime didn't draft Fields. Fields didn't win games this year. But his top WRs were Darnell Mooney and a traded for Chase Claypool. And that OL was hot garbage and the defense was terrible too. That's why the Bears should trade from 1 to 2 and then from 2 to 4 and draft the best defender, load up on OL and WR throughout the rest of the draft, and spend their $100+ million on surrounding Fields with talent. For the record, I am almost all-in on the Howell experiment. The only scenario where I would support a QB other than Howell in 2023 is if Fields becomes available OR Bryce Young somehow fell to #16. That won't happen. But Fields could be available. And his level of talent and upside in an Eric Bienemy offense WITH these weapons would be amazing. Edited February 22, 2023 by JamesMadisonSkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 8 minutes ago, Est.1974 said: I really hope we give Payne that big money deal. As an aside I would also be fairly interested in trading for Fields to be honest. Not sure what I’d be prepared to throw at the Bears though. I’m not sure I would. If Howell and Fields came out the same year I, personally, would have had Howell rated over him I think, but I loved both prospects. A scenario I could see where it kind of makes sense (aside from the fact that Howell is much better as a passer and can also run a little and we have good receivers) is if we somehow trade Payne/Sweat and recoup assets in this year’s draft to improve the supporting class. But I’d do that anyways to improve the O around Howell. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 I feel like I'm living in Bizzarro Earth where people think Payne is equivalent to Justin Fields. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, KDawg said: But I’d do that anyways to improve the O around Howell. Yeah the idea of possibly trading Payne for a mid to late 1st is appealing. I just don't think it's likely. We have depth at IDL and currently DL is your biggest strength already outside of WRs. The OL needs a talent infusion this year and for the long-term. If Payne played ANY other position I would be clamoring to bring him back. If we extend him I'll be happy. If they tag and trade him, I'd be happy. The only reason I'm okay with that second option is because the DL is still very solid (though unproven and under-performing). 3 minutes ago, ntotoro said: I feel like I'm living in Bizzarro Earth where people think Payne is equivalent to Justin Fields. Positional value? One is a stud DT but we already have 1 stud DT, a 2nd round backup DT, and an additional late round pick in Ridgeway that flashed in a big way ... plus two blue-chip calliber DEs on either side. You can mask the hole left behind by Payne. Like I said, I'm all-in on the Howell experiment. I just think Young Athletic high ceiling QB when you haven't had a franchise QB in 30+ years > Pro-Bowl DT when you have 3 other pro-bowl caliber players in the same positinal unit. Edited February 22, 2023 by JamesMadisonSkins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 minute ago, JamesMadisonSkins said: Yeah the idea of possibly trading Payne for a mid to late 1st is appealing. I just don't think it's likely. We have depth at IDL and currently DL is your biggest strength already outside of WRs. The OL needs a talent infusion this year and for the long-term. Don’t need a first. I’d take a second. I’d push for a first, though. A second drastically improves this team as well and we get something for Payne and clear the $18M. And I love Payne. If we didn’t need so much offensive help I’d be all about keeping him. I was up until recently. But I’d move him and Sweat ASAP for assets in this class… or next. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, KDawg said: I’m not sure I would. If Howell and Fields came out the same year I, personally, would have had Howell rated over him I think, but I loved both prospects. A scenario I could see where it kind of makes sense (aside from the fact that Howell is much better as a passer and can also run a little and we have good receivers) is if we somehow trade Payne/Sweat and recoup assets in this year’s draft to improve the supporting class. But I’d do that anyways to improve the O around Howell. I’d agree in principle with that. Rookie QB deals are becoming invaluable until you find that one. I’m still a bit unsure on our ‘real’ commitment to Howell. Might become clearer tomorrow during the Bieniemy presser. Could be intriguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Fields is terrible. I wouldn't trade Payne OR #16 for him straight up. 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 minute ago, KDawg said: Don’t need a first. I’d take a second. I’d push for a first, though. A second drastically improves this team as well and we get something for Payne and clear the $18M. And I love Payne. If we didn’t need so much offensive help I’d be all about keeping him. I was up until recently. But I’d move him and Sweat ASAP for assets in this class… or next. 100% my thoughts, exactly. Not sure about Sweat, since I simply don't know what his value is to even know what he could bring back in return. It is an interesting off-season because by tagging Payne (and not trading him) and NOT taking the Young 5th year option, Payne, Young and Sweat all hit FA next year + Kam Curl. Although you have tons of $$ to make those guys fit in long-term, I can understand the desire to leverage and ship one of them off for draft capital and cheaper contracts. Since we seem pretty committed to the Rookie Contract (whether Howell or a 2024 R1 pick) path, it does free up our cap to spend big elsewhere to ensure the team is robust around the QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 minute ago, Warhead36 said: Fields is terrible. I wouldn't trade Payne OR #16 for him straight up. Fields isn’t terrible, although I agree with the second part. I do think by coincidence the Bears have been linked with Payne in random articles, and they have about 100mil in cap space. Plus they really should draft a QB at #1. Time will tell. This time tomorrow we’ll have a strong idea if Howell really is QB1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 6 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said: Positional value? One is a stud DT but we already have 1 stud DT, a 2nd round backup DT, and an additional late round pick in Ridgeway that flashed in a big way ... plus two blue-chip calliber DEs on either side. You can mask the hole left behind by Payne. Like I said, I'm all-in on the Howell experiment. I just think Young Athletic high ceiling QB when you haven't had a franchise QB in 30+ years > Pro-Bowl DT when you have 3 other pro-bowl caliber players in the same positinal unit. No issue with Payne playing on the tag for a season. Let's see if he has a second year in him. I've seen enough of Howell in one game to know I'd like to see more and have seen enough of Fields to know I've seen enough LOL! Chase has shown 0% that he can get back to what he did his rookie season, much less improve. That was even before his injury, Sweat is a good piece to keep, but the team knows what it had with Payne last year. I'm all for seeing if he can do it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: Fields is terrible. I wouldn't trade Payne OR #16 for him straight up. Terrible is a massive stretch. He ran for 1200 yards and 11 TDs last year. Yes, he didn't throw much. Especially early in the season. But he also had no OL and no weapons. They leaned into the running game. But he did show, per many film breakdowns, strong development throwing the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan66 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 7 minutes ago, ntotoro said: I feel like I'm living in Bizzarro Earth where people think Payne is equivalent to Justin Fields. What's Bizzarro to me is why would you trade for Fields? He is walking the bust line if he does not learn to pass the ball some time soon. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 1 minute ago, skinsfan66 said: What's Bizzarro to me is why would you trade for Fields? He is walking the bust line if he does not learn to pass the ball some time soon. That's kind of my point, much less for Daron Payne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) Here's a question ... Would you rather have LT Orlando Brown, Jr. (27 years old) or DT Daron Payne (26 years old). Trade Payne for a 1st and use that $$ to sign Orlando Brown Or to go another step ... Brown signing = Leno cutting ($8m savings) LT Brown + $28m in cap space + 1/1/2/3/4 picks in the first 4 rounds ... Or Payne tagged and heading into FA with $14m Spotrac has Brown getting a $22m per year contract while Payne gets $19m per year. That's close enough to me to ask either/or Of course there is a world where we could do both. Extend Payne and sign Brown, both with hits around $12-13m in 2023. Cut Leno to save $8m and your remaining cap would be about $15m. Not a ton of $$, but you could get creative elsewhere if you needed/wanted to bring in another splashy FA. Edited February 22, 2023 by JamesMadisonSkins 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingdaddy Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 37 minutes ago, skinsfan66 said: Fields is not even worth the pick 16 in my mind. And we have no need for a high dollar QB who is still a? mark. I wonder if Bienemy would prefer Fields over Howell or Howell over Fields? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 If it isn't already clear, my top targets for Free Agency are, in order: 1. LT Orlando Brown, Jr. --- with corresponding cut of Charles Leno ($8m saved) 2. OG Nate Davis 3. LB Tremaine Edmunds 4. TE Mike Gesicki (with corresponding cut of Logan Thomas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 9 minutes ago, kingdaddy said: I wonder if Bienemy would prefer Fields over Howell or Howell over Fields? Yep i think that is the general key point. We’ve convinced Bieniemy to come here. He’s either all in in Howell or he’s been promised something else. That will become obvious in his introductory press conference IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 Here's the Spotrac on those guys that I am interested in (APY)... LT Orlando Brown - $22.3m RG Nate Davis - $7.4m TE Mike Gesicki - $8.2m DT Daron Payne - $19.3m LB Tremaine Edmunds - $11m Now these guys have to want to come here. In the past several years they haven't wanted to. But other than Brown and Payne these guys are affordable and pretty good. Curious to see how FA shakes out, how active we end up being, and how involved EB is in picking the offensive players in FA versus the draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Est.1974 Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 13 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said: Would you rather have LT Orlando Brown, Jr. (27 years old) or DT Daron Payne (26 years old). When we cut Wentz, and if we then restructured a small number of deals, Jon Allen, Samuel, Roullier (again) Logan Thomas, whatever - any 2 or 3, if we did roll with Howell then getting Brown and Payne signed up this offseason would be fantastic. Hard to see that. But it would open the draft up great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickyJ Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) The only way I take Fields in a trade is if the Bears send Fields + 6th overall for DaRon Payne. Edited February 22, 2023 by NickyJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesMadisonSkins Posted February 22, 2023 Share Posted February 22, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Est.1974 said: When we cut Wentz, and if we then restructured a small number of deals, Jon Allen, Samuel, Roullier (again) Logan Thomas, whatever - any 2 or 3, if we did roll with Howell then getting Brown and Payne signed up this offseason would be fantastic. Hard to see that. But it would open the draft up great. Cuts 1. Carson Wentz = save $26m 2. Charles Leno = saves $8m 3. Logan Thomas = saves $5m -------- Cuts save $39m Total cap into FA = $47m I think we could probably get there pretty comfortably without many drastic moves. 1. Extend Payne with a 2023 hit of $12m 2. Sign Brown with a 2023 hit of $14m 3. Sign Edmonds for a 2024 hit of $7m 4. Sign Davis for a 2024 hit of $4m 5. Sign Gesicki for 2024 hit of $4m ------------- $41m spent Now, this is an all-out free agency cycle. It won't happen, and it would frankly make you reliant on restructures to get enough cap space to sign draft picks and operate in-season maneuvering. Usually you want about $10-12m for those things minimum coming out of free agency. And this doesn't account for a veteran backup QB, which aren't usually just throwaway cheap contracts. But it could be done with minimal restructures. And fortunatley we have the future space to extend shorter term deals into longer term ones to free up space if we needed to. You could easily restructure Samuel and kick his deal out a couple more years ... and you could easily cut off a couple of those FAs and still have a very successful FA cycle in most fan's opinions. If there is a world in which a tag and trade offer for Payne does exist, and we could add a 1st or a 2nd and a future pick, then that makes the above completely doable, and your replacement for Payne is in-house with our existing depth, and you'd probably spend a mid to late round pick on an IDL too ... but it does free your assets up to invest elsewhere via FA and the draft. Brown + Davis on the OL + a 1st round pick at either RG or C would be amazing to project. Similarly, adding Gesicki to our offensive weapons for Bienemi to try and replicate Kelce would be a boon too (no offense to Logan Thomas, he's getting up in age). And finally, Tremaine Edmonds + a 1st round CB (via Payne) to the defense would really make it a complete unit. /spitballing. I nerd out at these cap scenarios every year, and they almost never come to fruition. Edited February 22, 2023 by JamesMadisonSkins 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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