The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randal 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariota and Fromm battle for QB2 and so begins the Handsome Harem for Hartman

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Everybody mentioning Trubisky seriously should be drug tested 

[KDawg]

Just now, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Everybody mentioning Trubisky seriously should be drug tested 

The point with Trubisky isn’t that he’s our savior. Or that he’s even good, really. It’s that of the FA options he may be the best of them. I can SEE an argument for Mariota, Bridgewater and even Jameis. But ultimately they are all various flavors of ineptitude. Including Trubisky. 
 

Yet those guys may wind up our best option.

[Thinking Skins]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

The point with Trubisky isn’t that he’s our savior. Or that he’s even good, really. It’s that of the FA options he may be the best of them. I can SEE an argument for Mariota, Bridgewater and even Jameis. But ultimately they are all various flavors of ineptitude. Including Trubisky. 
 

Yet those guys may wind up our best option.

I'm with you on this and instead of bringing in Fitz I wanted to bring in Trib to compete with Heinicke. But I think it's a wash right now. We'd be complaining about Fitz being Smith again or Trib being inaccurate and not getting the ball to his guys. Or we'd complain about Heinicke throwing ducks 

[abdcskins]

You gotta draft someone eventually, I think that is apparent. My whole thing is to not reach and spend a first rounder on someone who is graded in the 2nd or 3rd just because we need a QB. If there are no surefire elite QB prospects this draft then wait until next year and improve elsewhere. I don't want any "developmental" QBs. Of course, the college football season is still going on, so maybe someone will excel and emerge as a solid prospect. 

 

I am fine trading up if there is a guy that really looks great, but we need to hire someone who is excellent at scouting and identifying talent, because apparently our front office and coaching staff is not good at that. This team desperately needs a franchise QB, we have been needing one for too long. I don't want a veteran who can only give us 2-3 years tops and then we are back to square one.

[Koolblue13]

Trubinski is definitely better than Heinicke. I dont think that's even an argument. Most of us aren't even sure if Allen would be an upgrade to Heinicke. Fitz is done. We don't need to keep a single QB we currently have on our roster next year and only Heinicke is signed.

 

It's certainly not a position you want to be in, but we need 3 new QBs next year and Trubisky has the most upside of any realistic option that doesn't cost us draft picks. Maybe Mariotta, depending on who we draft.

[Going Commando]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

This can get tailgaty very fast, I disagree with you, should we drop this?

 

The Cowboys drafted a rookie who was accused by his teammate of sexual assault.  The Steelers have a future HoF QB who raped two women.  The Chiefs won a SB with a star WR who beat the **** out of a pregnant intimate partner and broke his three year old's arm.  The Bucs just won a SB with a WR who raped and beat a woman and who is just an all around piece of ****.  No one gives a crap about any of that and absolutely no competitive disadvantage was incurred by any of their teams, and they're not even really criticized for rostering them.  Thinking we need to comply with some sort of moral standard among our players that no one else follows is ridiculous.  There aren't competitive consequences for rostering bad men, only for bad players.  Team building in the NFL is the business of acquiring talent and winning football games, nothing more.  And if you win, people will give your **** employees the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

As long as he has the power to fire him, he has the power to override him.  Forcing QBs down coaches throats is his mo, yes, he would do that heading into year three with no QB and a cratering fanbase. 

 

Rivera benched Dan's QB prospect after 4 games and cut him before the first season was over.  And then Dan got exiled by the NFL from the operation of the team.  Anyone who thinks Dan has the power in making roster decisions about our QB is lying to themselves in order to avoid the recognition of the truth that Rivera wears the mistakes he has made at the position since he was hired.

[KDawg]

5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Rivera benched Dan's QB prospect after 4 games and cut him before the first season was over.  And then Dan got exiled by the NFL from the operation of the team.  Anyone who thinks Dan has the power in making roster decisions about our QB is lying to themselves in order to avoid the recognition of the truth that Rivera wears the mistakes he has made at the position since he was hired.

Totally disagree. 
 

Snyder is “exiled” but shows up at games and his wife runs the day to day. Right. Exiled.

 

Where I agree with you is that the coaching staff isn’t blameless at this juncture. I’m still trying to understand why nearly every camera shot of Rivera is him standing there. He talks to a ref from time to time but I never see him coaching guys up or anything like that.

[Renegade7]

5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

The Cowboys drafted a rookie who was accused by his teammate of sexual assault.  The Steelers have a future HoF QB who raped two women.  The Chiefs won a SB with a star WR who beat the **** out of a pregnant intimate partner and broke his three year old's arm.  The Bucs just won a SB with a WR who raped and beat a woman and who is just an all around piece of ****.  No one gives a crap about any of that and absolutely no competitive disadvantage was incurred by any of their teams, and they're not even really criticized for rostering them.  Thinking we need to comply with some sort of moral standard among our players that no one else follows is ridiculous.  There aren't competitive consequences for rostering bad men, only for bad players.  Team building in the NFL is the business of acquiring talent and winning football games, nothing more.  And if you win, people will give your **** employees the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

 

None of those franchises as a whole were under investigation for a culture of sexual harassment of their female employees.  Its gotten to the point that local and federal government are calling us out on this, directly impacting our ability to get a new site for a stadium.  This stuff matters, man.

5 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Rivera benched Dan's QB prospect after 4 games and cut him before the first season was over.  And then Dan got exiled by the NFL from the operation of the team.  Anyone who thinks Dan has the power in making roster decisions about our QB is lying to themselves in order to avoid the recognition of the truth that Rivera wears the mistakes he has made at the position since he was hired.

 

I'm not buying this double secret probation nonsense, and that doesn't mean I'm obsolving Rivera of his mistakes by saying that.  Dude still owns the team, of course he has the power to do that.

[Thinking Skins]

8 hours ago, abdcskins said:

You gotta draft someone eventually, I think that is apparent. My whole thing is to not reach and spend a first rounder on someone who is graded in the 2nd or 3rd just because we need a QB. If there are no surefire elite QB prospects this draft then wait until next year and improve elsewhere. I don't want any "developmental" QBs. Of course, the college football season is still going on, so maybe someone will excel and emerge as a solid prospect. 

 

I am fine trading up if there is a guy that really looks great, but we need to hire someone who is excellent at scouting and identifying talent, because apparently our front office and coaching staff is not good at that. This team desperately needs a franchise QB, we have been needing one for too long. I don't want a veteran who can only give us 2-3 years tops and then we are back to square one.

I disagree. I think that if there's a guy you want you go after him. QB is just that important. Mac Jones is supposedly a guy Rivera liked but didn't love so didn't want to trade up for him. But he's playing really well today. Now he's looking like he should have been traded up for. Shanny said he was goingto take Wilson in the 4th but Seattle took him in the 3rd. I thought Lance would last til our pick and he was gone at pick number 3. The draft is a crapshoot. Andthen you have the fact that so many of thedraft picks are just busts or don't develop into all pros and I don't see the value difference in first vs late pick for most position. But because QB is important you get more chances to pick the guy you want if you pick early. So why not do it? To save a few dollars? 

[Skinsinparadise]

I think Rodgers is warming up to coming here.  

 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

I think Rodgers is warming up to coming here.  

 

 

 

I'll take it ols.

 

Signing Rodgers and Devante to this offense would be something else. Draft a true power back to handle the load and this offense starts looking pretty unstoppable, pretty quickly.

[abdcskins]

14 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I disagree. I think that if there's a guy you want you go after him. QB is just that important. Mac Jones is supposedly a guy Rivera liked but didn't love so didn't want to trade up for him. But he's playing really well today. Now he's looking like he should have been traded up for. Shanny said he was goingto take Wilson in the 4th but Seattle took him in the 3rd. I thought Lance would last til our pick and he was gone at pick number 3. The draft is a crapshoot. Andthen you have the fact that so many of thedraft picks are just busts or don't develop into all pros and I don't see the value difference in first vs late pick for most position. But because QB is important you get more chances to pick the guy you want if you pick early. So why not do it? To save a few dollars? 

 

I get that, but at what cost? I don't see the point of drafting a QB just to draft a QB. It really depends on what position we are at come draft time. If we are in the top 5 and Kenny Pickett is there for us then yes absolutely draft him. But if we are like 7-12 (which is probably where we end up) and there are no QBs in that range that are worth it, then go ahead and draft a safety or linebacker. Basically what I am saying is that I don't want to swing and miss again and end up wasting 1-2 years on some QB who is never going to amount to anything. No team wants that obviously.

 

I agree with you that the draft is somewhat of a crapshoot. Certain players like Jared Goff or Jamarcus Russell went through the combine and had scouts marvelling at their skills. I am not in the NFL scouting business, so I am not sure if there are things one can point out that could have predicted their demise - I think intangibles are the most important, which in the case of Russell ended up being his demise. Things like work ethic, intelligence, and overall character often point to whether a QB can excel, not arm strength or size.

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, abdcskins said:

I get that, but at what cost? I don't see the point of drafting a QB just to draft a QB. It really depends on what position we are at come draft time. If we are in the top 5 and Kenny Pickett is there for us then yes absolutely draft him. But if we are like 7-12 (which is probably where we end up) and there are no QBs in that range that are worth it, then go ahead and draft a safety or linebacker. Basically what I am saying is that I don't want to swing and miss again and end up wasting 1-2 years on some QB who is never going to amount to anything. No team wants that obviously.

 

Why not? I can see if its a guy who we've crossed off our lists for whatever reasons (Haskins for maturity). But if its a toss up between an OL and a QB I'm going QB because we can find quality OL later in the draft and in FA and other places, but we can't find QBs. 

[KDawg]

15 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'll take it ols.

 

Signing Rodgers and Devante to this offense would be something else. Draft a true power back to handle the load and this offense starts looking pretty unstoppable, pretty quickly.

Rodgers HAS to be the target.

 

I have a better shot at winning the lottery than we have at getting him to play here... But Rodgers + Adams HAVE to be major targets.

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Why not? I can see if its a guy who we've crossed off our lists for whatever reasons (Haskins for maturity). But if its a toss up between an OL and a QB I'm going QB because we can find quality OL later in the draft and in FA and other places, but we can't find QBs. 

Exactly. If we moved up for fields last year, it probably would have ballparked us a 1rst next year and a 3rd that draft. Are we better with no Davis,Juste and Fields at QB?

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'll take it ols.

 

Signing Rodgers and Devante to this offense would be something else. Draft a true power back to handle the load and this offense starts looking pretty unstoppable, pretty quickly.

 

I think they got no shot to do it but man what a fun dream, could you imagine ticket sales among other things?  Trading for Rodgerts might actually save the floundering franchise.

 

Some posts made by others (granted just a minority of them) and some comments via the local media (also just a minority) give me the vibe that some think this organization is no worse for wear than at any point in Dan's tenure.  Where the vibe is yeah Dan's a headache but we can still get the big player, big coach just like the past -- nothing has really changed on that front.  I think that's dead wrong.  Yeah, Dan for his faults over the years could pull that off.  But IMO those days are long gone.  This isn't 2014 anymore -- not that 2014 was anything special but they weren't as nearly down the ditch as they are now.

 

Now we got a disinterested fan base.  Declining TV ratings.   Jacksonville used to be the attendance joke around the league, now its us.  Dan is considered beyond just a joke.   He's seen as hopeless. Worst stadium.  Worst faclities.  Investigations.  It's turned into the Siberia of the NFL.  

 

I think its wild that some like a radio host on 980 want Rivera on the hot seat, and some others can't wait until he leaves.  

 

For me its not that Rivera is perfect.  But to me he's the last man standing, known for his integrity league wide.  In many ways his persona is the opposite of Dan.  I think that matters in an organization like this.  It might not matter so much elsewhere.  You take Rivera out of the equation and wow do I think we go deeper into Siberia because I really doubt the next dude comes with a league wide rep like that.  I think we'd be back to fishing in the Zorn pool if we are lucky. 

 

I like bringing up the excerpt below because IMO its so relevant.

 

 

[abdcskins]

6 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Why not? I can see if its a guy who we've crossed off our lists for whatever reasons (Haskins for maturity). But if its a toss up between an OL and a QB I'm going QB because we can find quality OL later in the draft and in FA and other places, but we can't find QBs. 

 

I mean I guess. It all comes down to if we think the dude is good or not, which as we have discussed is not easy to determine. I don't trust our scouts or coaching staff to do that, the number of busts we have drafted the last two decades has been staggering. I'd prefer to draft a "surefire QB" however that is supposed to look, even if we have to trade up.

 

It is an inexact science so...if they spend their first rounder on Ridder or someone like that I won't be super angry. QBs are absolutely vital, there is no denying that, and we need one badly.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Rodgers HAS to be the target.

 

I have a better shot at winning the lottery than we have at getting him to play here... But Rodgers + Adams HAVE to be major targets.

Kinda gets the hairs tingling, don't it? Rodgers throwing to Adams, TMac, Samuel's and Thomas and RSJ, with Gibson and McKissic also able to catch passes? With our line, too. Pretty unstoppable really.

[Thinking Skins]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Exactly. If we moved up for fields last year, it probably would have ballparked us a 1rst next year and a 3rd that draft. Are we better with no Davis,Juste and Fields at QB?

not just that but while I loved the Davis pick because I wanted us to play him at MLB like we're doing, I place QB above MLB any day of the week. And even if we didn't find a MLB the idea of us finding a good QB is more important. I didn't think Mond was a first round QB but if we had picked Mond over Davis or JOC I still would be ok with it. 

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think they got no shot to do it but man what a fun dream, could you imagine ticket sales among other things?  Trading for Rodgerts might actually save the floundering franchise.

 

Some posts made by others (granted just a minority of them) and some comments via the local media (also just a minority) give me the vibe that some think this organization is no worse for wear than at any point in Dan's tenure.  Where the vibe is yeah Dan's a headache but we can still get the big player, big coach just like the past -- nothing has really changed on that front.  I think that's dead wrong.  Yeah, Dan for his faults over the years could pull that off.  But IMO those days are long gone.  This isn't 2014 anymore -- not that 2014 was anything special but they weren't as nearly down the ditch as they are now.

 

Now we got a disinterested fan base.  Declining TV ratings.   Jacksonville used to be the attendance joke around the league, now its us.  Dan is considered beyond just a joke.   He's seen as hopeless. Worst stadium.  Worst faclities.  Investigations.  It's turned into the Siberia of the NFL.  

 

I think its wild that some like a radio host on 980 want Rivera on the hot seat, and some others can't wait until he leaves.  

 

For me its not that Rivera is perfect.  But to me he's the last man standing, known for his integrity league wide.  In many ways his persona is the opposite of Dan.  I think that matters in an organization like this.  It might not matter so much elsewhere.  You take Rivera out of the equation and wow do I think we go deeper into Siberia because I really doubt the next dude comes with a league wide rep like that.  I think we'd be back to fishing in the Zorn pool if we are lucky. 

 

I like bringing up the excerpt below because IMO its so relevant.

 

 

It's kind of our last dance as a franchise IMO, and who knows what's going to happen. 

 

Although, if the league is somehow "forced" into pushing Dan down the toilet, a respected Ron and Aaron led team that you get to name has got to be pretty enticing to a possible new owner. Especially with a new stadium deal on the horizon. 

3 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

not just that but while I loved the Davis pick because I wanted us to play him at MLB like we're doing, I place QB above MLB any day of the week. And even if we didn't find a MLB the idea of us finding a good QB is more important. I didn't think Mond was a first round QB but if we had picked Mond over Davis or JOC I still would be ok with it. 

I wouldn't have been. Picking a subpar QB and kicking every other need down the line does the team and the young QB a disservice. I can definitely see Ron's point about building the team up first, then getting the QB.

[Thinking Skins]

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I wouldn't have been. Picking a subpar QB and kicking every other need down the line does the team and the young QB a disservice. I can definitely see Ron's point about building the team up first, then getting the QB.

I see that and I agree with that but I still value bringing in a QB at every opportunity. I see no point in bringing in Fitz. He's a stopgap. I'm all about looking for the QB of the fututre. thats why I was against the Smith trade. His age limited him more than anything else. But if they liked Mond and thought he'd go in the second then I have no problem taking him in the first. The thing is we can and do find talent at every other position late in the draft. We don't find it at QB. Or what we find is marginal guys because QBs are constantly overdrafted. I still think that the buid the team first philosophy says we can win with a system type QB but it will be 2018 type wins. Heck even the guys like Wilson and Cousins have reasons why they dropped. So it becomes a question of can they overcome those reasons or will you play with a limited QB. Thats what we're doing now. Heinicke is limited. exciting but limited. Other Qbs are not as limited but they're boring or they get stuck on first reads or they can't throw a deep ball or they won't throw a deep ball or they're a statue in the pocket or they won't run the ball or they won't throw 50/50 balls. Finding a Mahomes or a Herbert is not an easy thing to do. But it involves taking chances as neither of those guys were the number 1 guy comin out either. 

[DWinzit]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I wouldn't have been. Picking a subpar QB and kicking every other need down the line does the team and the young QB a disservice. I can definitely see Ron's point about building the team up first, then getting the QB.

Agreed. Mond was a 3rd or 4th round player. No way I take him in the mid 1st or 2nd round. Fill team needs or go BPA, no reaching

[Thinking Skins]

10 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Agreed. Mond was a 3rd or 4th round player. No way I take him in the mid 1st or 2nd round. Fill team needs or go BPA, no reaching

What is BPA? Its gotta be a weighted scale because if BPA is a K do you take them? What if its another DE or DT when we have glaring holes? QB is the most important position and if you see a starter in Mond then you draft him no matter where you are. Mond is just a name I'm using because I like him but if I replace it with Wilson or Dak or Cousins does it sound more plausable? These are now top QBs in the league (well except Cousins) and are obviously worth first round picks. The LA approach seems valuable now. QB deserves its own scale that goes above just draft picks. 

[DWinzit]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

What is BPA? Its gotta be a weighted scale because if BPA is a K do you take them? What if its another DE or DT when we have glaring holes? QB is the most important position and if you see a starter in Mond then you draft him no matter where you are. Mond is just a name I'm using because I like him but if I replace it with Wilson or Dak or Cousins does it sound more plausable? These are now top QBs in the league (well except Cousins) and are obviously worth first round picks. The LA approach seems valuable now. QB deserves its own scale that goes above just draft picks. 

I had Wilson, Dak and Cousins graded close to where they were drafted. Heck I actually liked the Cousins pick because he was BPA even though he was needed just after all the draft capital being used on RG3. QB's do get a slight extra nod because of the importance of their position. In the case of your example in Mond, I had him ranked 3rd-4th round. He was taken very high in the 3rd, that's not a reach. If we used a mid 1st or mid 2nd for him it's a reach, too many higher ranked players on my board,, many of them also filling voids in our roster.