The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Est.1974]

7 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I wasn’t going to give up some of the players people wanted. I wasn’t going to give up some of the draft picks people wanted.”

Did we ever hear which players people wanted. That is a very short list of players I would feel that I ‘had’ to retain.

 

It’s going to cost Ron a whole lot more this offseason, unless he settles for third or fourth sittings at the table.

 

Detroit, Houston, Philly with 3 high picks, Giants 2 picks. All likely top 12-15. That is going to be hard to compete with. Even if we lose out from here 2-15 might not get you a top 2 pick.

 

If Fitz doesn’t retire it could be another year of him, or i strongly suspect we look at Mariota. Tua maybe. God knows in the draft. Looks a tough avenue to get hold of someone in the 2022 draft at the minute to me.
 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, skins island connection said:

SIP,

 that was a nice write-up and all, but c'mon lets be realistic about it; Peyton Manning was barely a factor in his last SB trip.

It was the Denver defense that got em there, Peyton was barely better than Trent Dilfer in the playoffs and SB. 

Yes he was " Dilferish " in the SB 50 as well as playoffs, 2 postseason games and SB combined 539 yds passing, 2 TDs 1 int. Thats not worth giving up a bunch of 1st rnd picks, especially when the defense blows dog. 

 

 

"C'mon be realistic?"

 

OK, help bring me back to reality then as how things really are.  😀   I am trying to follow the argument that i am making that is wild.

 

A.  The whole idea of QBs win SBs and make teams consistent winners are off.  Peyton's SB helps prove that?

 

B.  And I was talking about giving up a "bunch" of 1st round picks -- where did I talk about that, quote me on that one. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Did we ever hear which players people wanted. That is a very short list of players I would feel that I ‘had’ to retain.

 

It’s going to cost Ron a whole lot more this offseason, unless he settles for third or fourth sittings at the table.

 

Detroit, Houston, Philly with 3 high picks, Giants 2 picks. All likely top 12-15. That is going to be hard to compete with. Even if we lose out from here 2-15 might not get you a top 2 pick.

 

If Fitz doesn’t retire it could be another year of him, or i strongly suspect we look at Mariota. Tua maybe. God knows in the draft. Looks a tough avenue to get hold of someone in the 2022 draft at the minute to me.
 

 

 

I am forgetting right now whom said what but the guys I generally trust the most are Standig and Keim so i'd presume one of them was in the mix of this.   I recall Sheehan and someone else mentioned Fields.  And then another reporter said they liked Jones but wouldn't trade up for him so didn't love him and Rivera himself explained how close a Qb was to their pick -- that also screamed Mac Jones. 

 

Supposedly they didn't like Tua, Keim said so and Hoffman in different segments.  One said they considered Darnold and another reclamation project but had too many concerns.

 

According to Silver's long article, Watson was in consideration before the investigation started.  And sounds like they considered Wilson and Rodgers but didn't pursue them.   According to him they thought they would land Stafford. 

 

According to Keim, Hurney is the guy in the building who loves scouting QBs and he supposedly while in Carolina loved Herbert in that draft. 

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

I just have this awful suspicion that we fail to grab a guy and wind up with very little or a big reach in round 1 of this year’s draft. It’s probably the fact that this franchise doesn’t do much correctly that has me feeling that way. But I feel that way.

[Est.1974]

@Skinsinparadise I was meaning, which players did Rivera not want to trade away off our roster in a deal to acquire a QB?

[Wyvern]

Oddly, if Fitzpatrick hadn't been injured so early in game 1,  Washington might not now be so focused on the Team's deficiencies at QB, and instead would be urgently looking for more help at linebacker, or for the defensive backfield.  If Fitz had lived up to expectations, Washington might have had their 1-2 year answer at QB and could have been ready to go all in on a QB in the 2023 draft, or maybe use a 2nd round pick on a promising candidate in 2022 to groom for a year.  (after all, Fitz wasn't showing any signs of decline, and had been fairly durable).

 

The fact is, Washington never got to see how Fitzpatrick would have managed the offense and consequently wasn't able to properly assess where the Team really stacked up vs. the top-tier opponents one gets with a first-place schedule. 

 

Moreover, with so many injuries, it's hard to tell just how far off the offense is from being ready for having its future mortgaged in order to roll the dice on a high-potential college QB.  And right now, any veteran top-tier free agent QB would be reluctant to come here after seeing what Washington currently is offering in the way of a supporting cast.

 

bottom Line:  I thought Ron took the right approach in the off-season, trying for Stafford, settling for Fitzpatrick and drafting a talented linebacker and continuing to plug gaps and maintain cap space.  I agreed with Ron on how Washington wasn't ready yet to mortgage its future, because it still had a lot of holes in the roster needing high picks to fill.  But now Ron's decisions look bad because the Team defense wasn't yet truly playoff caliber (despite its fluke 2020 season) and all the injuries have severely limited what the offense can produce.)

[Est.1974]

16 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I just have this awful suspicion that we fail to grab a guy and wind up with very little or a big reach in round 1 of this year’s draft. It’s probably the fact that this franchise doesn’t do much correctly that has me feeling that way. But I feel that way.

I agree. We are in a potentially worse position to grab a QB now than we were last offseason. I worry we will vastly reach or overpay through increased desperation.

 

I said the other day, perhaps you get a Mariota type QB and trade away that top 5 draft pick for ammo in 2023. Results in another lost season in the mean time though.

 

Tough spot at the minute IMO.

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I just have this awful suspicion that we fail to grab a guy and wind up with very little or a big reach in round 1 of this year’s draft. It’s probably the fact that this franchise doesn’t do much correctly that has me feeling that way. But I feel that way.

 

Could be.  Especially because as we know the odds are always higher to miss on QB of course than get it right.

 

i don't know about reaching. Maybe.  Rivera seems gun shy about giving up the store to get a guy so I got doubt he offers the moon.  But Dan on the other hand?  They are in a really bad spot.   They are already dead bottom in attendance.  Imagine the 2nd half of the season?  I am scheduled to go to one of the last games of the season. 😧  I bet there is like 15,000 people there, 80% of them the opponents fans.   

 

I gather from a minority but loud contingent of posts on this thread and some others that there are some who think the QB's value is overrated and won't be so much of a game changer.  Build a defense or whatever and you can insert that QB. 

 

I disagree with them but even if I agreed with them, I think they are missing that's its not the typical fan's point of view.  And for Dan I think the typical fan's point of view matters more now than ever.  You aren't going to sell tickets by saying hey we loaded up Nick Foles with a stellar supporting cast, maybe we can be one of those teams that get lucky and be one of those anamoly cases of winning a SB without the guy?   

 

It's also been the only runs of success we've had under Dan.  Either a really good veteran leader at QB or good QB play albeit not great.   I don't think the fan base isn't buying anymore hang with us with Case Keenum or name a guy like that while we build a team around them.  

 

I am not a Jason Reid guy but I think he's on the money here.    I think this is the organization's darkest year.  they have to pull a rabbit out of the hat.  and yeah it could lead to a desperate move.  What that is, I don't know.  The QBs we follow in this draft I don't think bring fans, unless they hit the ground running. 

 

Thinking about your point a little, I think the most desperate thing they can do is offer something beyond big for Rodgers or Wilson but instead something outrageous.  Obviously the hard part is then convincing those players.  but it wouldn't shock me if they go for it really crazy hard.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

8 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

@Skinsinparadise I was meaning, which players did Rivera not want to trade away off our roster in a deal to acquire a QB?

 

I think it was draft picks not so much players from what I've heard. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Oddly, if Fitzpatrick hadn't been injured so early in game 1,  Washington might not now be so focused on the Team's deficiencies at QB, and instead would be urgently looking for more help at linebacker, or for the defensive backfield.  If Fitz had lived up to expectations, Washington might have had their 1-2 year answer at QB and could have been ready to go all in on a QB in the 2023 draft, or maybe use a 2nd round pick on a promising candidate in 2022 to groom for a year.  (after all, Fitz wasn't showing any signs of decline, and had been fairly durable).

 

The fact is, Washington never got to see how Fitzpatrick would have managed the offense and consequently wasn't able to properly assess where the Team really stacked up vs. the top-tier opponents one gets with a first-place schedule. 

 

Moreover, with so many injuries, it's hard to tell just how far off the offense is from being ready for having its future mortgaged in order to roll the dice on a high-potential college QB.  And right now, any veteran top-tier free agent QB would be reluctant to come here after seeing what Washington currently is offering in the way of a supporting cast.

 

bottom Line:  I thought Ron took the right approach in the off-season, trying for Stafford, settling for Fitzpatrick and drafting a talented linebacker and continuing to plug gaps and maintain cap space.  I agreed with Ron on how Washington wasn't ready yet to mortgage its future, because it still had a lot of holes in the roster needing high picks to fill.  But now Ron's decisions look bad because the Team defense wasn't yet truly playoff caliber (despite its fluke 2020 season) and all the injuries have severely limited what the offense can produce.)

 

 

Yeah I get Rivera's logic even though I would have made the move myself for a QB and said so in the off season.  The logic was the roster wasn't there yet to give up a lot of picks.  Build the roster and then do it next year.  Keim talked about this a lot in his predraft podcasts.  He suggested if a QB fell in their lap in the draft or close enough to that they'd pounce but he didn't think they'd trade the store for one so he expected the aggressiveness to happen in alll likelihood next year.  

 

So I get Rivera's defiance to an extent.  They had a plan and they are sticking with it.    And that plan included if they didn't get the guy this year, they'd move heaven on earth to get it next year.

 

Where the plan went awry was clearly this

 

A.  The defense which was supposed to take a step up, took a step back.

 

B.  Their FA upgrades didn't work out.  Mostly because of bad luck:  Fitzpatrick-Samuel.  Jackson right now looks like a downgrade from Darby.

 

I think they thought hey if we go 10-7 or even 9-8 with Fitzpatrick and a killer defense and a better supporting cast thanks in part to Samuel, we could talk Wilson or Rodgers into coming here.  I think that gamble backfired in a big way.   So I think now they are stuck with the draft.

 

You got now the backdrop of distaste about this organization because of Dan, that hasn't gone away.  A team that is drawing embarassing home crowds and local TV ratings.  The pickle he's in now is that backdrop around this decision is really intense.  In other words,  i can't recall a juncture in this franchise where there was this level of desperation for this off season and almost all of it is centered on can they get this spot right.

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Wildbunny]

45 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I just have this awful suspicion that we fail to grab a guy and wind up with very little or a big reach in round 1 of this year’s draft. It’s probably the fact that this franchise doesn’t do much correctly that has me feeling that way. But I feel that way.

Dan is already scouting next year QB, so yeah, this probably will be the case next April.

 

Dan will force a QB, rinse and repeat...

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Dan is already scouting next year QB, so yeah, this probably will be the case next April.

 

 

He's got the Midas touch:  McNabb, Ramsey, RG3, Haskins all according to most Dan was the driving force on though they is a mixed story about RG3.    And too bad he was outbid for Sanchez and Cutler in trades. 

 

https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nfl/mike-shanahan-says-trading-up-to-draft-rg3-was-absolutely-crazy

 

"[Redskins owner Dan Snyder] knew I wasn't very happy about what we did, but he wanted everybody to celebrate how smart we were, so we jumped on his plane and met the other owners on his yacht," Shanahan said. "Everyone was celebrating. I just didn't think it was very smart to give up that much for a guy who we didn't even know if he could drop back and throw.

"When I finally sat down with Dan, I said, 'Hey, you own the team. We can work with him and do some things. But we haven't seen anything on tape that warrants giving [up] this type of compensation.' To me, it was absolutely crazy. But I told Dan that if that's what he wanted to do, I'd make it work."

 

 

Nearly all former employees described Snyder as a man whose passion for the team is both an asset and a flaw and whose personality and leadership style touch every corner of the Redskins organization. While some suggest he receives unfair blame for some of the team’s missteps, many say his strong personality has fostered a culture within the organization that makes it hard for any employee to thrive. Even Snyder’s defenders note that the franchise’s perennial struggles feature the owner’s fingerprints and say the organization is very much a product of his design.

 

 

....Snyder’s organization has been structured a variety of ways and featured several deputies over the years. Those familiar with the team’s inner workings say there’s not necessarily a problem with the structure, but rather that those tapped to do their jobs frequently are not allowed to do them.

 

A former member of the Redskins’ personnel department said Snyder’s involvement with the football operation typically outmatches his football expertise.“He can’t ever get it right because he wants to be involved in it all,” he said. “He wants to have input in everything.”

Several employees said that while Snyder likes to ask questions, he does not always seem receptive to advice. Many relationships with other NFL teams are strained, they say, and he has insulated himself from pushback and dissenting opinions.

 

“I think there’s a fundamental flaw with who he surrounds himself with,” said one former coach. “Dan’s not very open to receiving negative feedback.”

 

...Shanahan hoped to acquire Marc Bulger, then the St. Louis Rams quarterback, according to two people familiar with the situation, but Snyder pushed hard for the higher profile and more marketable McNabb. The owner cut short a family vacation in the Turks and Caicos Islands to meet his new quarterback.

One constant theme of Snyder’s ownership from the beginning has been complaints from staff about the owner’s involvement with players and the relationships he cultivates with them. Even as he ceded a significant amount of authority to Shanahan these past four years, Snyder, like many NFL owners, will never be entirely absent from big decisions, others warn.

 

....Snyder played a much more active role in the draft process, even traveling at times with his personnel officials to scout college players. In 2007, he had his heart set on drafting quarterback Brady Quinn out of Notre Dame. “It took a week or so to convince him that we shouldn’t do that,” one former staffer said. “Then he wanted Teddy Ginn,” an Ohio State wide receiver. Quinn has played for five teams in seven seasons, while Ginn has started just five games in the past four years.

The next season, still in need of a wide receiver, the team targeted Oklahoma’s Malcolm Kelly in the second round, though the medical staff had major health concerns.

 

When they took Michigan State wideout Devin Thomas 34th overall before nabbing Kelly 17 picks later, they passed on Jordy Nelson, whom several others in the football operation preferred, according to someone who was with the team at the time. Hobbled by knee problems for two seasons, Kelly was released in 2011 after posting just 28 receptions. In six seasons with the Green Bay Packers since going 36th overall in the draft, Nelson has 302 catches for 4,590 yards and 36 touchdowns. This season, Nelson had career highs with 85 receptions for 1,314 yards.

“It’s hard to say that anyone can restrain him when he wants to do something,” said one former Snyder employee, who’d worked at Snyder Communications, of the Redskins owner. “You cannot stop impulsive people from doing what they want to do.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/daniel-snyder-washington-redskins-owner-still-struggles-to-find-formula-for-success/2014/01/04/5d86bfa4-74a4-11e3-bc6b-712d770c3715_story.html

 

 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

43 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

@Skinsinparadise I was meaning, which players did Rivera not want to trade away off our roster in a deal to acquire a QB?

 

38 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I think it was draft picks not so much players from what I've heard. 

Feels like no player should be off the table at this point. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, DWinzit said:

 

Feels like no player should be off the table at this point. 

 

I guess will see.  I suspect it is going to be a wild off season. 

[KDawg]

17 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

 

Feels like no player should be off the table at this point. 

Kind of depends on what that player is being used for and who that player is being used for.

[DWinzit]

16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I guess will see.  I suspect it is going to be a wild off season. 

Yup, and will probably involve some swing and misses like last years Stafford attempt.

 

It may be difficult to find players that want to play in Washington next year if the team can't turn things around. Last year the defenses infectious good play was a building block

[88Comrade2000]

In today’s nfl; QB us the first thing you gave to address. If you draft a QB, he may end up being a bust but you have to address the most important position.

 

 

Ron has to find at least mid term QB solution next year, if he can’t find the long term solution. He has to be competitive, going 8-8/9-8 or he’s done here after 22.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Rdskns2000

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

Yup, and will probably involve some swing and misses like last years Stafford attempt.

 

It may be difficult to find players that want to play in Washington next year if the team can't turn things around. Last year the defenses infectious good play was a building block

 

Agree.  That's what makes this off season if anything look tougher.  

 

I think they are just about boxed in to draft a rookie AND sign a reclamation project.  Keim as i mentioned from my observation is the most plugged in and his "guesses" often turn out to be what they do.  That was his guess in a recent podcast more or less.  It's my guess too.  

 

It's really the only thing that makes sense.  The odds that a big time QB wants to come here is almost nothing.  And I doubt they want to put pressure on a rookie QB to hit the ground running from the jump.  So I think this is the way it likely goes. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  That's what makes this off season if anything look tougher.  

 

I think they are just about boxed in to draft a rookie AND sign a reclamation project.  Keim as i mentioned from my observation is the most plugged in and his "guesses" often turn out to be what they do.  That was his guess in a recent podcast more or less.  It's my guess to do.  

 

It's really the only thing that makes sense.  The odds that a big time QB wants to come here is almost nothing.  And I doubt they want to put pressure on a rookie QB to hit the ground running from the jump.  So I think this is the way it likely goes. 

totally agree.

They need to identify the Trubisky, Mariota type they want to target and go hard at them.

Then study the hell out of the top QB's in the draft and get the one they like

Edited November 1, 2021 by DWinzit

[GoDeep81]

Whoever it is, they better not be a primarily mobile QB. Cause this organization will cut their throat forcing them to be a pocket passer, before they adjust their game plan.. 

[markmills67]

2 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

Did we ever hear which players people wanted. That is a very short list of players I would feel that I ‘had’ to retain.

 

It’s going to cost Ron a whole lot more this offseason, unless he settles for third or fourth sittings at the table.

 

Detroit, Houston, Philly with 3 high picks, Giants 2 picks. All likely top 12-15. That is going to be hard to compete with. Even if we lose out from here 2-15 might not get you a top 2 pick.

 

If Fitz doesn’t retire it could be another year of him, or i strongly suspect we look at Mariota. Tua maybe. God knows in the draft. Looks a tough avenue to get hold of someone in the 2022 draft at the minute to me.
 

 

15m cap space atm, plus looking like close to 70m cap space next year, this coming off-season could be make or break for Rivera and Co. 

[Koolblue13]

Hopefully things are bad enough for Dan that he won't force anything. He really needs the spotlight off him and we have so many highly respected coaches and FO guys now that crossing them could be a real death blow.

 

That said, I doubt any coach or GM we have doesn't understand that QB is absolutely urgent for several reasons right now.

 

Worst case scenario is Fitz comes back and leads us on a win streak to finish the year.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

12 minutes ago, GoDeep81 said:

Whoever it is, they better not be a primarily mobile QB. Cause this organization will cut their throat forcing them to be a pocket passer, before they adjust their game plan.. 

My guess is you're referring to both Griffin and Heineke.

 

Griffin wanted to be "Peyton Manning" and didn't want to be a runner anymore.  After he was cut from here, he had a few opportunities to be a mobile QB elsewhere and stunk there too.

 

Heineke - I kind of wish Turner would just dial up roll out after roll out to just shush the folks up that think Heineke's being held back by the playcalling.

[Capt'n Obvious]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Worst case scenario is Fitz comes back and leads us on a win streak to finish the year.

 

Agreed worst case scenario, but Fitz is not good either. He'll look better than Taylor simply because he can throw an out route, but I think they'll finish 3-14/4-13 regardless of who is under center.

 

[Wildbunny]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

....Snyder’s organization has been structured a variety of ways and featured several deputies over the years. Those familiar with the team’s inner workings say there’s not necessarily a problem with the structure, but rather that those tapped to do their jobs frequently are not allowed to do them.

 

A former member of the Redskins’ personnel department said Snyder’s involvement with the football operation typically outmatches his football expertise.“He can’t ever get it right because he wants to be involved in it all,” he said. “He wants to have input in everything.”

For that very reason I feel like Dan asked Ron to fire Hopkins, for the result we know.