The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, wit33 said:

 

This play requires the QB to make a good play in the pocket, not implying otherwise. I didn’t see an evasion attempt— he has a habit of bouncing in the pocket which delays his ability at times to make a quick throw from the pocket. If he steps up I prefer it with the idea of getting rid of it immediately, he’ll get swallowed up too often if idea is to scan field from within the guard to guard lanes. 
 

Quick throw to check down, evade, or throw it away. All QBs get sacked, his sack rate is at alarming pace though, Logan and Cooley seem to place a fair portion of the blame on him. 

 

 

I don’t know, they all get sacked from time to time. Brady and Mahomes are elite in their ability to manipulate and evade pressure in the pocket to buy time and gain a unique passing window not available to guys like Cousins as often. 

 

He’s built for it. Dude looks like a FB to me. 
 

Unfortunately QB designed runs don’t seem to be in the Reid offensive philosophy. Not to say he’s never done it, did so a bit with Smith, but not a common wrinkle of his it seems. Brutal, it’s such a weapon to throw in for an offense. 

 

I agree, you’d like to be in rhythm and operate from the pocket, but its extremely difficult to execute against the better teams. The QB must be able to extend and crew to compete with the better QBs in the NFL consistently. 
 

With that said, I believe you can create the environment you seem to want for the QB with a more ground and pound approach. I can get behind this style and have in past with Alex Smith and to a much lesser degree Heineke, but your ceiling is at risk of being lower. 
 

I hope EB keeps applying pressure and doesn’t let up on throttle. 

Ok

[wit33]

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

Ouch. Seems unscathed to date. He’ll struggle to beat the record due to an eventual benching of sack numbers continue to rise.

 

Do you think Jacoby would help with sack numbers? 

Edited September 28, 2023 by wit33

[MrJL]

I saw a comment about Howell's history with OLs, so I decided to take a look at drafts.  Since 2020 North Carolina has sent four OL to the NFL.  All are still on teams. One of them is still a rookie so I have no idea if he was a starter during Howell's tenure.  The other three were mid round draft picks in 2021 and 2022.  All are still on their teams.  However those teams are the Houston Texans and New York Giants so the jury is still out on their quality 

[MartinC]

14 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Do you think Jacoby would help with sack numbers? 

I doubt it. Joe is 64 now. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

4 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I doubt it. Joe is 64 now. 

[wit33]

10 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I doubt it. Joe is 64 now. 

Not at all calling for it, curious if some feel his veteran presence and command of NFL offenses would help to decrease sack numbers. 
 

Though, I can get behind a neutered version of Alex Smith type football. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by wit33

[MartinC]

6 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Not at all calling for it, curious if some feel his veteran presence and command of NFL offenses would help to decrease sack numbers. 
 

Though, I can get behind a neutered version of Alex Smith type football. 

He’d probably reduce the sack numbers. But you’d see a steady diet of check downs and a much lower ceiling on the offense.

[Voice_of_Reason]

40 minutes ago, MartinC said:

He’d probably reduce the sack numbers. But you’d see a steady diet of check downs and a much lower ceiling on the offense.

But more importantly, if Howell isn’t playing, he’s not improving.  

[Daniel.redskins]

I really like Howell and see potential in him. Problem is that if we don't make playoffs, Ron is gone. And the new coach will draft his QB in the first round. Ron's biggest mistake was day 1 when he agreed to develop his predecessor's QB. We have never been good at QB since.  

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

I really like Howell and see potential in him. Problem is that if we don't make playoffs, Ron is gone. And the new coach will draft his QB in the first round. Ron's biggest mistake was day 1 when he agreed to develop his predecessor's QB. We have never been good at QB since.  

Here’s the thing: there may not be a QB to draft in the first round where we pick. I have a feeling we’re going to be just out of blue chip QB range and sitting in that OT2/3 sweet spot.

 

The other thing to consider: if we don’t draft a tackle in the first a rookie QB is going to get eaten alive and we’ll be having similar conversations next year. 
 

I’m hoping whoever they hire has the wherewithal to fix the lines unless we are somehow picking top 2.

[MartinC]

57 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

But more importantly, if Howell isn’t playing, he’s not improving.  

There is no case for sitting Howell anytime soon. This season is really about seeing if he can develop. I think Ron knows this is likely his last year and his legacy could be at least leaving behind a team with an ascending young QB.

 

Howell will be given lots of rope. 

[kingdaddy]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

But more importantly, if Howell isn’t playing, he’s not improving.  

True.....but when he is playing he is at serious risk to be out for the season at any given time. The chances of him making it through the season healthy are remote at best. It's a fine line these coaches are walking with him...improvement and experience vs injury/loss of confidence.

[kingdaddy]

1 hour ago, MartinC said:

There is no case for sitting Howell anytime soon. This season is really about seeing if he can develop. I think Ron knows this is likely his last year and his legacy could be at least leaving behind a team with an ascending young QB.

 

Howell will be given lots of rope. 

There is one case, the fact that he's on pace to be sacked 107 times and is a walking ambulance ride at any given time. If things continue the way they have, he may need to be sat down just to watch and learn before going back in later in the season. For example, if we're 3-6 and heading into Dallas then maybe RR gives Sam a week off to catch his breath and just watch. That's just an example, I don't know when we play Dallas but Sam looked completely shell-shocked last week in the 2nd half and he should've been rescued by the coaching staff rather than subjected to more punishment in my opinion. Other than this scenario, I agree with you, he needs to play so he can grow and the team can find out about him. I hope he makes it.

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

The other thing to consider: if we don’t draft a tackle in the first a rookie QB is going to get eaten alive and we’ll be having similar conversations next year. 

Yep.....catch 22. 

[Going Commando]

Unless he gets hurt, Howell needs to play out the entire year, and sink or swim.  If Ron benches Howell for any reason other than he's too hurt to keep playing, then I think he should be fired and Bieniemy should finish the season as the interim HC.

 

If it goes down that way, then the next GM and HC need to pick their QB in offseason one.  They need to get their own guy and immediately form the QB-HC marriage that is essential to long term success.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

Guys, if he has more games like he did Sunday, he’s not playing 17 games and it would be unrealistic to think he would. Come on. 
 

No NFL team is going to send a guy out there and watch him turn the ball over and get sacked a million times for the sake of development. “Rookie” or not. That’s completely unreasonable. Jets didn’t just let Zach Wilson suck out loud for the sake of it last year. 
 

I totally get your sentiment and I definitely think Sam will show marked improvement over time but the notion that he should get an unquestioned 17 game trial if he continuously sucks is ridiculous. Not to mention he’s a 5th round pick. That matters a lot. 

[FootballZombie]

29 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Guys, if he has more games like he did Sunday, he’s not playing 17 games and it would be unrealistic to think he would. Come on. 
 

No NFL team is going to send a guy out there and watch him turn the ball over and get sacked a million times for the sake of development. “Rookie” or not. That’s completely unreasonable. Jets didn’t just let Zach Wilson suck out loud for the sake of it last year. 
 

I totally get your sentiment and I definitely think Sam will show marked improvement over time but the notion that he should get an unquestioned 17 game trial if he continuously sucks is ridiculous. Not to mention he’s a 5th round pick. That matters a lot. 

 

I'm close enough to this line of thinking.

 

Gotta remember Ron is not just responsible for his own job, but for the other coaches and players trying to get a new deals as well. If your QB is significantly dragging down the process, and a move can be made to improve the situation it will be done.

 

That being said I don't believe Howell is playing poorly enough right now that the idea needs to be entertained and I think it is much more likely that Sam in bumped for injury reasons rather than performance anyways. He can't stack 3/4/5 games like Buffalo tho.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

11 minutes ago, FootballZombie said:

 

I'm close enough to this line of thinking.

 

Gotta remember Ron is not just responsible for his own job, but for the other coaches and players trying to get a new deals as well. If your QB is significantly dragging down the process, and a move can be made to improve the situation it will be done.

 

That being said I don't believe Howell is playing poorly enough right now that the idea needs to be entertained and I think it is much more likely that Sam in bumped for injury reasons rather than performance anyways. He can't stack 3/4/5 games like Buffalo tho.

100%
 

Im not really worried about him getting benched for performance at this point. Injury? Hell yeah. All it takes is one rolled ankle or sprained AC Joint 

[KDawg]

7 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Guys, if he has more games like he did Sunday, he’s not playing 17 games and it would be unrealistic to think he would. Come on. 
 

No NFL team is going to send a guy out there and watch him turn the ball over and get sacked a million times for the sake of development. “Rookie” or not. That’s completely unreasonable. Jets didn’t just let Zach Wilson suck out loud for the sake of it last year. 
 

I totally get your sentiment and I definitely think Sam will show marked improvement over time but the notion that he should get an unquestioned 17 game trial if he continuously sucks is ridiculous. Not to mention he’s a 5th round pick. That matters a lot. 

He hasn't continually sucked so far, though. 

 

It's wild how fast we forget an entire sample size when one game goes poorly.

 

In one game Howell got sacked 9 times and threw 4 INTs. It was a bad game. No denying it. From him, the OL, the OC and the receivers. Just not a good game.

 

But prior to that he also had a meh game and a very good game.

 

So why don't we pump the brakes on statements like "continuously sucks".

 

The rest of your post is reasonable.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

26 minutes ago, KDawg said:

He hasn't continually sucked so far, though. 

 

It's wild how fast we forget an entire sample size when one game goes poorly.

 

In one game Howell got sacked 9 times and threw 4 INTs. It was a bad game. No denying it. From him, the OL, the OC and the receivers. Just not a good game.

 

But prior to that he also had a meh game and a very good game.

 

So why don't we pump the brakes on statements like "continuously sucks".

 

The rest of your post is reasonable.

That post was just push back on the idea of giving any young QB 17 games based solely on them being young. It was a hypothetical to make a point. 
 

 

 

[KDawg]

Just now, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

That post was just push back on the idea of giving any young QB 17 games based solely on them being young. It was a hypothetical to make a point. 
 

 

 

 

Roger.

[samy316]

7 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Guys, if he has more games like he did Sunday, he’s not playing 17 games and it would be unrealistic to think he would. Come on. 
 

No NFL team is going to send a guy out there and watch him turn the ball over and get sacked a million times for the sake of development. “Rookie” or not. That’s completely unreasonable. Jets didn’t just let Zach Wilson suck out loud for the sake of it last year. 
 

I totally get your sentiment and I definitely think Sam will show marked improvement over time but the notion that he should get an unquestioned 17 game trial if he continuously sucks is ridiculous. Not to mention he’s a 5th round pick. That matters a lot. 

 

Again, whose fault is that?  This is all on Rivera.  We all kept beating the drum during the offseason on how little the team did to shore up the OL, so that it can keep it's young rookie QB upright.  Rivera can't go to Brissett, unless it's absolutely certain that Sam is regressing, or he's injured.  The moment he turns to Brissett for any reason other than injury to Howell to save the season, marks the end of the Rivera regime in DC.  He knows it, and everyone else paying attention knows it.  He dropped the ball big time by trading for Wentz last year.  It proved that he knew nothing about the QB position, and the haphazard way he went about playing Wentz in the season finale with the season on the line just emphasized that point.

 

It defies logic that a coach entering the 4th year of his tenure, would have to rely on a rookie QB to possibly save his job, but that's where we are.  You would think that a coach with his job on the line would urgently find the means to upgrade a below average OL, but that didn't happen.  Ron has no clue what he's doing, and it's going to come back to bite him, if Sam Howell doesn't pan out this year.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

5 minutes ago, samy316 said:

 

Again, whose fault is that?  This is all on Rivera.  We all kept beating the drum during the offseason on how little the team did to shore up the OL, so that it can keep it's young rookie QB upright.  Rivera can't go to Brissett, unless it's absolutely certain that Sam is regressing, or he's injured.  The moment he turns to Brissett for any reason other than injury to Howell to save the season, marks the end of the Rivera regime in DC.  He knows it, and everyone else paying attention knows it.  He dropped the ball big time by trading for Wentz last year.  It proved that he knew nothing about the QB position, and the haphazard way he went about playing Wentz in the season finale with the season on the line just emphasized that point.

 

It defies logic that a coach entering the 4th year of his tenure, would have to rely on a rookie QB to possibly save his job, but that's where we are.  You would think that a coach with his job on the line would urgently find the means to upgrade a below average OL, but that didn't happen.  Ron has no clue what he's doing, and it's going to come back to bite him, if Sam Howell doesn't pan out this year.

Your entire 2nd paragraph is exactly my feelings on the entire season. 

[samy316]

8 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Your entire 2nd paragraph is exactly my feelings on the entire season. 

 

What's even worse, is that none of this is Sam Howell's fault.  He shouldn't be blamed for anything negative that happens this season.  Under normal team management, he should've been QB2, behind TH last year, and then he should've been ready to go if TH had an injury, or if TH had performance issues (like the SF game).  It made no sense to trade for Wentz, and then draft Howell in the 5th round in 2022.  They should've just rolled with TH for 2022, once it became apparent that they were not in line to get any notable QB's like Russell Wilson,  Aaron Rodgers or Jimmy G.  The entire NFL world was incredulous when we traded for a guy that nobody wanted, literally.  They should've went OL heavy during FA, and especially the draft, but the FO was too incompetent to focus resources on a terrible OL unit.  Our 2022 offseason and 2023 offseason set the team back, and it's become really evident that it's going to bite us hard that we didn't do a damn thing to fix the OL.

Edited September 29, 2023 by samy316

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

True.....but when he is playing he is at serious risk to be out for the season at any given time. The chances of him making it through the season healthy are remote at best. It's a fine line these coaches are walking with him...improvement and experience vs injury/loss of confidence.

He takes enough of a beating maybe he’ll start to get rid of the ball faster….

 

That’s kindof a joke.

 

But honestly, the thing that needs to speed up for him is his decision making process so he gets the ball out consistently at 2.5 seconds or less.  The only way you get there is playing.  He’s going to take a beating until he works it out though.

 

Now EB can help him out by moving him around, different play design, etc.  but at the end of the day, he’s got to process and throw quicker.  

[zCommander]

1 minute ago, samy316 said:

 

What's even worse, is that none of this is Sam Howell's fault.  He shouldn't be blamed for anything negative that happens this season.  Under normal team management, he should've been QB2, behind TH last year, and then he should've been ready to go if TH had an injury, or if TH had performance issues (like the SF game).  It made no sense to trade for Wentz, and then draft Howell in the 5th round in 2022.  They should've just rolled with TH for 2022, once it became apparent that they were not in line to get any notable QB's like Russell Wilson,  Aaron Rodgers or Jimmy G.  The entire NFL world was incredulous when we traded for a guy that nobody wanted, literally.  They should've went OL heavy during FA, and especially the draft, but the FA was too incompetent to focus resources on a terrible OL unit.  Our 2022 offseason and 2023 offseason set the team back, and it's become really evident that it's going to bite us hard that we didn't do a damn thing to fix the OL.

 

If you go back to the beginning of this thread (2021) this is exactly what I said. Roll with TH and build the OL and then drop a QB from the draft. If Ron or Dan weren't so hung up trying to get a "real" QB (what a waste of money that could have been spent on the OL instead, like I wanted them to do) then Sam would have been selected in the 2nd or 3rd round and would have started last year - more than 1 game that is. It just amazes me that I said this two years ago (I think a lot us said that about the OL as well) and knew we have a problem with the OL but Ron who gets paid millions to make these sound decision didn't.  

 

You are right that Ron's job hinges on Howell. But it will be lack of effort on his part to get better players for OL is what will end him instead.