The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Zim489]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

I'd argue McLaurin is elite. But beyond that, I agree. We don't have elite talent outside of Allen/Payne and McLaurin

I don’t know what to think of Terry at this point. He’s great but at the same time there’s 10 guys I’d have in front of him. 
 

Don’t agree on Payne though. I think he’s good when he’s playing 3T. Problem is he kicks Jon to play the 1T to do so. Which I hate. You have a top 3-5 3T to the 1T. That’s not using your best talents to the best usage. 

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

 

What the teams you mention do well, that we historically have been awful at is managing their assets, buying and selling, flipping picks, etc.  If we did that better we’d have the firepower to make things happen easier.

 

In my long list of grievances with Dan's stewardship -- a big time problem clearly IMO has been squandering assets and hardly ever doing what Roseman does which is build assets.  Scot's 2nd draft wasn't good but I loved one thing he did which is trade 2016 picks to gain higher 2017 picks -- added three 2017 picks.  Some teams like the Pats, Ravens, Eagles do this routinely -- we almost never do it.  We do the opposite if anything.

 

I do think this FO has been mostly good at drafting.  And I did like the trade down this season -- albeit Olave is killing it with the Saints.  But I'd like to see more Roseman out of this staff as for trading for tomorrow.  But with new ownership hopefully they stop this insane run of trading assets and being allergic to accumulating assets.  Roseman is a wiz at it. 

 

Some of my arguments for John Henry in the owners thread is every now and then he reboots his teams.  Some on that thread kill him for it.  But I like that.  He will go 1000 miles an hour but then every now and then reset the team when they seem headed to a decline.  We never do that here.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You don't see him a slot guy what so ever?  The question about Dotson transittoning to the NFL centering on beating press and thereby can he play outside.  He's tailor made for slot.  That's how he was mostly billed coming out of the draft.  He played both outside and inside at Penn State.  I watched a lot of Dotson before the draft.

I did as well. It was why he was my number one of WR do not draft list. Thought he was pretty good outside of the numbers with very limited production across the middle of the field. For as terrible of a QB as he had who’s not little I saw it as a concern. I thought he would be a decent to pretty good Z. I was concerned heavily with his size when you factor in guys with his measurable comparison who’s had success in the league on literally one hand over the modern era. Can not play the X. Zero production out of the Y. 

 

im not sure where you’re getting this “labeled as a Slot” from. No one had him there. You just read his draft profile on nfl.com right now his and read his negatives it pretty much rules out slot. 

[Warhead36]

The NFL is just loaded at WR. But Terry is 8th in the league in receiving yards(7th among WRs since Travis Kelce is up there as well). So maybe he's not elite, but he's very very good. With that said, if you paired him with a legitimate top notch QB he'd probably be up there statistically with the others. The best receivers in terms of production tend to also have the best QBs.

[JSSkinz]

10 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

10 guys I’d have in front of him. 

I'm curious who the guys are you would have in front of him? I bet they're QBs are the who's who of the league.

 

Terry's never played with a good QB let alone an elite QB.

[Chris 44]

2 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

The NFL is just loaded at WR. But Terry is 8th in the league in receiving yards(7th among WRs since Travis Kelce is up there as well). So maybe he's not elite, but he's very very good. With that said, if you paired him with a legitimate top notch QB he'd probably be up there statistically with the others. The best receivers in terms of production tend to also have the best QBs.

Terry is also a great team mate and true leader. Glad hes on our team.

[HigSkin]

The sky must be falling, Skip Bayless just said of the NFCE and segment on ranking the division that Commanders are a very dangerous team getting ready to have Chase Young back and don't write them off.  They could turn the end of year division results upside down!

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by HigSkin

[Tress Is The Way]

6 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

Terry is also a great team mate and true leader. Glad hes on our team.

This exactly. You can look at all the other top 10 WRs in the league and there is one thing that makes Terry elite, and that is his leadership skills. He is a natural, born leader.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I did as well. It was why he was my number one of WR do not draft list. Thought he was pretty good outside of the numbers with very limited production across the middle of the field. For as terrible of a QB as he had who’s not little I saw it as a concern. I thought he would be a decent to pretty good Z. I was concerned heavily with his size when you factor in guys with his measurable comparison who’s had success in the league on literally one hand over the modern era. Can not play the X. Zero production out of the Y. 

 

im not sure where you’re getting this “labeled as a Slot” from. No one had him there. You just read his draft profile on nfl.com right now his and read his negatives it pretty much rules out slot. 

 

Played outside and played slot at Penn State.  Played more outside.  But as i mentioned the projections for him were more slot oriented for obvious reasons.

 

I can dig up a lot more.  I spent a lot of time on the WRs before the draft, yeah plenty saw him as a slot WR as did I but I think he can play Z, too.  i talked about it a ton before the draft and the draft thread.  Later I'll dig up all the draft guides I had if you like.

 

 

he could be a very productive NFL receiver with versatility between the boundary and the slot.

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/jahan-dotson-penn-state-wr-nfl-draft-scouting-report-2022/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

9 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I'm curious who the guys are you would have in front of him? I bet they're QBs are the who's who of the league.

 

Terry's never played with a good QB let alone an elite QB.

Devante Diggs Kupp JJ Jamar Deebo Tyreek AJ are outright. When healthy Nuke Mike Evans 

[zCommander]

Back to talking about QBs in the QB thread.. 😛

 

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/did-commanders-taylor-heinicke-knock-off-carson-wentz-old-team-and-take-his-spot

 

Commanders have become winners with him under center. In contrast, Wentz is 2-4 as Washington's starter this season, which includes a 24-8 loss to the Eagles in Week 3.

 

There's more to it, of course. The Commanders traded for Wentz to be the guy this offseason after a 2021 campaign in which Heinicke was 7-8 as a starter who threw for 209.7 yards a game, 20 touchdowns and 15 interceptions.

 

"I said it back in OTAs, we brought Carson in to be the starter, and if my number was called I'd be ready to go in. So, whatever decision they want to make, let's go," Heinicke said. "If I'm backing up Carson next week, great, I'm going to help him any way I can to get ready for that Texas game. The biggest thing for me is let's go win, let's just keep winning, whether it's me playing or not."

 

Wentz' leadership has drawn criticism in the past, whereas Heinicke has been the underdog who provides a spark and galvanizes his teammates.

 

"His grit, just the way he plays, he's a guy that, it's hard to beat the underdog mentality sometimes, and I told you guys that's him," Rivera said.

 

A decision between Heinicke and Wentz will come later, but if this is it for Heinicke as the Commanders' QB1, it was a memorably sensational last start.

 

"I'd probably say it's the biggest win of my career," Heinicke said. "It's a division opponent, undefeated, their place, Monday night? Can't get much better than that."

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by zCommander

[Going Commando]

Kirk Cousins, Jalen Hurts, and Jimmy Garoppolo are the QBs leading the best teams in the NFC.  Are they really so much better than the guys we have in our QB room?  I just don't think so.

 

You don't need a dominant playmaker at the QB position to compete for a championship.  You need stability and leadership, and somehow I think we get that from our group.

[KDawg]

14 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

I'm curious who the guys are you would have in front of him? I bet they're QBs are the who's who of the league.

 

Terry's never played with a good QB let alone an elite QB.

I think this is fair. Look at Davante Adams. Last year he was a virtual universal best receiver in the NFL guy. This year he’s not. But his numbers aren’t really all that different. He’s slightly down but nothing wild…

 

Derek Carr isn’t looked upon like Aaron Rodgers (mostly deservedly) and the Raiders are a bad team (this is the more pertinent point). 
 

No one is really saying he’s the best in the league. It’s Justin Jefferson (he is surreal), JaMarr Chase (prior to injury), Tyreek Hill, Cooper Kupp. All of those guys are on good teams. You don’t really talk about the guys on bad teams much because when it comes down to it you won’t see them in crunch time so what does it matter?

 

Amon Ra St. Brown is excellent. But he’s a Lion. 

[HigSkin]

Somebody needs to buy TH a Yeti or something to keep his plane ride beers cold!

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by HigSkin

[NoCalMike]

I think when comparing D-Jax to McLaurin what we have to remember is by the time D-Jax got to DC he wasn't the same WR as he was in Philly. He is a smaller WR that had taken enough of a beating that his days as that all purpose jack of all trades WR were over and he was primarily a deep threat.   McLaurin doesn't have the quickness of D-Jax which was really once in a generation, but he is stronger and seems to be better at making contested catches.  McLaurin's overall game is likely more suited for a long career as he will still have many elements to his game after he loses a step or two of speed, sort of like a Fitzgerald who was productive long after he was done blowing the top off a defense.

[Zim489]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Played outside and played slot at Penn State.  Played more outside.  But as i mentioned the projections for him were more slot oriented for obvious reasons.

 

I can dig up a lot more.  I spent a lot of time on the WRs before the draft, I don't throw stuff out there out of thin air.  So yeah plenty saw him as a slot WR as did I but I think he can play Z, too.  i talked about it a ton before the draft and the draft thread.

 

 

he could be a very productive NFL receiver with versatility between the boundary and the slot.

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/jahan-dotson-penn-state-wr-nfl-draft-scouting-report-2022/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nearly all of these are after the fact of him being on the team and really about the only place to put him with out taking better players off the field. I stand with what I said that he would be better as a Z. 
 

There was a reason he was taken here and it wasn’t to “play the slot”. It was Ron needed to win and Dotson was the most likely to produce this season. There was a handful of other guys I would rather have with significantly better ceilings and better roster fit with our current group. Certainly a lot more Slot players. All of them needed developing and would likely be worse this season. Burks wandale Metchie Watson Pickens Skyee Tolbert I would have much preferred over Jahan. 

13 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

You don't need a dominant playmaker at the QB position to compete for a championship.

You’re right you don’t. But you need more things to go your way and you’re far less likely to consistently be in the hunt on a year to year basis. 
 

Gimmie the guy who gives me the most rolls of the dice late into the playoffs. We’ll see what happens this but last year the outright worse QB last year won only 2 of the 13 playoff games. Jimmy G who happens to have the most QB proof offensive system in the league 

[JSSkinz]

24 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Devante Diggs Kupp JJ Jamar Deebo Tyreek AJ are outright. When healthy Nuke Mike Evans 

So all those teams have franchise QBs, I'm not saying you're wrong about Terry but I don't know how you can gauge what he really is when he's had no consistency at QB.

[Zim489]

Just now, JSSkinz said:

So all those teams have franchise QBs, I'm not saying you're wrong about Terry but I don't know how you can gauge what he really is when he's had no consistency at QB.

I mean we have to go with what we got. Not going to get fixed next year either. Going to again have one of the worst QB rooms if not the worst for what feels like the 5th consecutive year 

[Warhead36]

32 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

Kirk Cousins, Jalen Hurts, and Jimmy Garoppolo are the QBs leading the best teams in the NFC.  Are they really so much better than the guys we have in our QB room?  I just don't think so.

 

You don't need a dominant playmaker at the QB position to compete for a championship.  You need stability and leadership, and somehow I think we get that from our group.

Hurts has played at an MVP level and Cousins has been a fringe top 10-12 ish QB for the last few years now. I'll give you Garppolo though but the 49ers roster is absolutely loaded.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, JSSkinz said:

So all those teams have franchise QBs, I'm not saying you're wrong about Terry but I don't know how you can gauge what he really is when he's had no consistency at QB.

Agreed, this is basically what we came to grips with when signing him this offseason.

 

From what I’ve seen, he’s going and catching everything remotely in his direction, literally.  He’s an absolute dog to boot.

 

 

[tshile]

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

You are so mad, that you had to come back and edit your post to get more barbs in

If you post quick enough after a previous post, and no one posts between, it merges them

 

it gives you a notification pop up it merged then when it happens

 

if you’re struggling to understand any other basic board features just send me a list I’ll explain them so you can be more informed 

[NoCalMike]

I've been saying for two months now that Jalen Hurts was overrated as a passer. He has a lot of abilities that help his game, but when push comes to shove, as a pure passer he is not top tier.  The biggest difference between this game and the first meeting was that a lot of his 50/50 balls were broken up, intercepted, or stopped immediately after the catch, versus the first game where it seemed like any pass he threw, no matter how well covered, ended up a catch.  That is life as a QB when your passing ability leads to a ton of will it or won't it passes, which is why I remain having the same opinion about Heinicke overall.  I think Heinicke is really good on the short passes, and his biggest improvement over last season is being able to hit guys in stride on the shallow crossing routes instead of them having to stop and make the catch stationary.....and then try to start running again.   I still think that the skill position players on this team are too good and too fast for a QB like Heinicke to see their potential realized and it is going to handcuff the offense as long as he is the QB.  Does that mean Wentz is the right guy to see their potential met and possibly exceeded?  It is hard to say.  I don't think Wentz was particularly great before the injury, but I also don't think he was nearly as bad as some people are remembering.  I think other parts of the team have gradually become better and it is resulting in very close wins (or losses) when for two weeks in a row it seems like there were ample opportunities for the game(s) to be unwinnable by the opponent, yet here we were in the 4th quarter holding our breath again.

This isn't an indictment on Heinicke so much as it is just stating the reality that he has to hit his ceiling as a QB every week for the team to have a chance.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Does that mean Wentz is the right guy to see their potential met and possibly exceeded?  It is hard to say. 

Maybe in a different system with a different OC, but even then - probably not.  What plagued Carson was the combination of concrete in his shoes and the interior Oline giving up immediate pressure.  But beyond that, he didn’t seem to have the best grasp of Turner’s offense.

 

In theory, it sounds great to run a similar offense with Carson as they are running now with Heinicke.  But is it even in Carson to penny and nickel his way down the field, taking checkdowns and just eating clock?  I don’t think so.  
 

The combo of Turner’s offense, Carson’s limited time with it, his lack of mobility in conjunction with a porous interior line just seems like a match made in hell.  One not worth revisiting at the risk of a 2nd round draft pick.

[wit33]

 

12 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

This isn't an indictment on Heinicke so much as it is just stating the reality that he has to hit his ceiling as a QB every week for the team to have a chance.

I expected more rhythm and longer drives with Heineke in the line up and against the Eagles is the first time he seemed to hit his game management ceiling since taking over. I like that it wasn’t anything crazy that got the job done, run the ball and convert on third and fourth down.

Pure speculation, but I believe Ron is going into game with mindset of having 4 downs to get a first down with Heineke often in games. Conservative with run first approach but aggressive situationally seems to be the formula with Heineke. Probably feel he’s “dynamic” in short yardage to go situations and want to put him in these positions often to flourish. When I say dynamic, I mean from standpoint of putting a player in position his talents can beat impact a game. 

[skinny21]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Maybe in a different system with a different OC, but even then - probably not.  What plagued Carson was the combination of concrete in his shoes and the interior Oline giving up immediate pressure.  But beyond that, he didn’t seem to have the best grasp of Turner’s offense.

 

In theory, it sounds great to run a similar offense with Carson as they are running now with Heinicke.  But is it even in Carson to penny and nickel his way down the field, taking checkdowns and just eating clock?  I don’t think so.  
 

The combo of Turner’s offense, Carson’s limited time with it, his lack of mobility in conjunction with a porous interior line just seems like a match made in hell.  One not worth revisiting at the risk of a 2nd round draft pick.

Pretty much.  The theory of Wentz racking up big gainers to our receivers, of fielding an explosive offense that could result in leads (leads our D could take advantage of) sounds great.  Trying that behind this line though, or asking him instead to make quick reads/execute a primarily dink and dunk offense (with deeper stuff mixed in)… seems like a terrible idea.

The oline has improved, but IMO it’s gone from atrocious to pretty bad.  Now if Taylor (assuming he remains the starter) plays poorly against Houston and/or Atlanta, maybe they give it another go with Carson.  And who knows, maybe it works out.  I’ve maintained that the time off and chance to evaluate how TH runs the offense - the good and the bad - could be a big help for Wentz.  But again, the oline is still pretty poor, so I think putting him in is asking for failure.