The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

42 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

Odd, they showed highlight film for everyone on that list, except for Carson. Brought out his lowlights instead.

 

watched it.

 

He aptly said Wentz is perhaps the biggest punchline in the NFL.  The national NFL is just clowning on him.  No one expects anything from him.

 

I do agree with Schrager's point though is maybe all the mockery that Wentz gets these days will fuel his ego in a I'll show you kind of season. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Rex Tomb]

45 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

Odd, they showed highlight film for everyone on that list, except for Carson. Brought out his lowlights instead.

I just noticed that... yikes!  Someone in the film room has it out for him.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

16 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

On the accuracy issue, my question is are the balls still catchable? Because it's different to have catchable but not optimal placement vs just bad throws that aren't catchable. 

After watching that video, its “catchable but not optimal placement” only if we have an invisible 14 foot tall WR on the roster lol…

[Skinsinparadise]

Listened just now to Fortier from the WP and Standig.  their take:

 

A.  First two days weren't good.

B.  The next two days started off really good but he didn't end either of those days good

C.  His criticis who bash him for accuracy look to be on the money from what they are seeing.  But you also see some killer plays from him that you aren't used to seeing in the past from the Qbs who have been here

D.  Be ready for ups and downs likely during the season -- a QB who isn't consistent but can make some killer plays  

E.  He holds the ball in their view too long and wonder if that leads to sacks during the season.

 

lol, hopefully the national media deosn't get wind of this stuff, they already want to kill him.  

 

But again, i try to live in reality versus what I want to be true so I am not doubting the reports that Wentz isn't that accurate, that's been the rap really from the start of minicamp on.  But two optimistic thoughts based on all of that.

 

A.  Let Wentz work out hopefully the kinks early.

 

B.  Seems like the rap on him so far is he's better in the quick game and going deep versus some other stuff.  So major in the stuff he looks good at.   

 

 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

2 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

After watching that video, its “catchable but not optimal placement” only if we have an invisible 14 foot tall WR on the roster lol…

The ghost of anthony mix?

[Califan007 The Constipated]

17 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

The ghost of anthony mix?

You have just won the thread lol…

[Califan007 The Constipated]

47 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Listened just now to Fortier from the WP and Standig.  their take:

 

A.  First two days weren't good.

B.  The next two days started off really good but he didn't end either of those days good

C.  His criticis who bash him for accuracy look to be on the money from what they are seeing.  But you also see some killer plays from him that you aren't used to seeing in the past from the Qbs who have been here

D.  Be ready for ups and downs likely during the season -- a QB who isn't consistent but can make some killer plays  

E.  He holds the ball in their view too long and wonder if that leads to sacks during the season.

 

lol, hopefully the national media deosn't get wind of this stuff, they already want to kill him.  

 

But again, i try to live in reality versus what I want to be true so I am not doubting the reports that Wentz isn't that accurate, that's been the rap really from the start of minicamp on.  But two optimistic thoughts based on all of that.

 

A.  Let Wentz work out hopefully the kinks early.

 

B.  Seems like the rap on him so far is he's better in the quick game and going deep versus some other stuff.  So major in the stuff he looks good at.   

 

 

 

My only real hope with Wentz’s inaccuracy is that 1) it doesn’t start to get to his head, which might have fueled some of the decision-making issues I’ve always felt he had, and 2) it doesn’t lead to turnovers. His low INT totals seem to indicate that it hasn’t so far. 

 

That being said, I said earlier in the thread that as much as I’d like to think otherwise, I don’t see this year being the year Wentz proves his detractors wrong. Soooooo much more goes into being a good QB that helps their team win besides how well you throw a pass. That’s why the two QBs with the best w/l records over the last 4 years were a 47 year old QB hopping around on one leg and a Walmart greeter-turned-QB with a noodle arm throwing wounded ducks to receivers. There was a lot that both had to do right to end up with the records they did.
 

I will also say, though, that if Wentz guides this team to a 10+ win season this year, give Scott Turner an immediate raise lol…because if he can scheme up an offense that can throw up a 22-16 record with Wentz, Heinicke, and Smith with one leg dangling from his body, then that’s someone you do NOT want to lose.

Edited July 31, 2022 by Califan007 The Constipated

[redskinss]

I have no illusions that wentz accuracy issues won't continue here but I don't care.

No matter how many receivers he misses its still going to be nice to watch a quarterback who can fire bullets into tight windows and make some wow throws. 

He's an upgrade and we have no monetary commitment to him, so if howell is the future it can start immediately or we can draft someone else and try again. 

There's no doubt that our quarterback room is much better this year than it has been for the last two years.

 

We need to realize that our bar for measuring quarterbacks isn't Peyton manning or Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes, it's Taylor heinicke, Dwayne haskins and a one legged game manager.

Keep it in perspective and Wentz's flaws won't seem so bad anymore. 

 

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

My only real hope with Wentz’s inaccuracy is that 1) it doesn’t start to get to his head, which might have fueled some of the decision-making issues I’ve always felt he had, and 2) it doesn’t lead to turnovers. His low INT totals seem to indicate that it hasn’t so far. 

 

 

Bram in particular loves to prop up the idea of bolstering Carson's confidence.   I agree.  He's gone from being considered the next to Peyton to the joke of the league (unjustifably a punchline IMO).  I can't really think of a QB with such a rise and fall perception wise maybe ironically outside of RG3.  What that does to his psyche, I don't know.  But I do think he needs to have a good camp.  So far according to most, he's not having a good camp but its super early -- preseason hasn't even started yet. 

 

44 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

We need to realize that our bar for measuring quarterbacks isn't Peyton manning or Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes, it's Taylor heinicke, Dwayne haskins and a one legged game manager.

Keep it in perspective and Wentz's flaws won't seem so bad anymore. 

 

 

Agree.  this is sort of Keim's point which is Carson isn't following Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck or even Phillip Rivers.

 

The bar is low here.  The pressure isn't the same. He's not a top 10 QB for a reason IMO and that his inconsistency is well established.  But he's still likely an upgrade over anything we've had in years. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[kingdaddy]

On 7/30/2022 at 12:15 PM, Est.1974 said:

Looking at QB depth charts around the league, and the general lack of quality behind many starters, I could see a team throwing us a day 3 pick for TH after Howell as won the #2 spot from him. One to watch around the time final rosters are pulled together IMO.

 

TH is a solid backup, chances are we’ll have one of those in Howell now.

I agree. I saw some column, I think on CBSSports.com that had TH ranked as one of the better backup QB's in the league. I'll have to look for it again. 

[wit33]

2 hours ago, redskinss said:

 

 

We need to realize that our bar for measuring quarterbacks isn't Peyton manning or Tom Brady or Patrick Mahomes, it's Taylor heinicke, Dwayne haskins and a one legged game manager.

Keep it in perspective and Wentz's flaws won't seem so bad anymore. 

 

 

More discussion about style of QB and pathways to succeed at the QB spot have and continue to evolve.

 

Brady and Manning are like NBA centers in the past that dominated the NBA (Russel and Jabar), the  Michael Jordan (Isiah Thomas should get more mention) showed a guard can dominate as well. Now the way to win the NBA championship is by having an elite “wing” player.
 

Aaron Rodgers is the MJ of football (I’ve also compared him to Curry) proof you can be a contender and win consistently through playing outside the pocket and taking control of chaos through playmaking at the QB spot can be most effective. Mahomes and Josh Allen operate a great deal from my untrained eye off of one or two reads, then take control of game with playmaking.
 

Wentz should be studying Rodgers, Mahomes, and Allen etc., and the coaching staff should be studying how those teams support those guys.  Stay as far away as possible from guys like Brady and Manning, due to their inclination and as a result pathway to mastering the QB position being much different than a guy like Wentz. 
 

Wentz is not an accurate QB (neither is Mahomes or Allen, though much better QBs than Wentz) let the dude gunsling, be a playmaker, and throw left handed passes and combine that with effective play calling that provides him many called “lay ups” (short passes) and consistent “three pointers” (deep shots). Pass to run ratio of 57.45% to 42.55% should be the goal

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I've heard enough to know that he's noticable inaccurate-wild.  Just about everyone who has covered him has said the same.  As for Keim-Bram saying its obvious for anyone watching -- I know what they mean because I've watched camps and its not hard to notice accuracy.  Doesn't take deep thought.  It's obvious for better or worse. And that goes double if you watched other camps over the years where you have other reference points.  

 

So I have heard too many people say the same thing to doubt it.    Having said that, in baseball in particular pitchers tend to be wild early on in Spring Training but then settle down the more they pitch.  I'd worry more if I was hearing this at the end of training camp versus now.

 

Yeah, I think you're right on.  A few additional points;

 

1. None of these guys have played actual "real" football (or even this ramp-up fake football stuff at the beginning of camp) since January.  Sure, they've all worked out, done some of this and some of that, had OTAs, throwing sessions, what not, but it hasn't been consistent, and even between the last mini-camp and now has been 6 weeks.  It always takes a few days to get back into the swing of things. I'm sure it's quicker for some than others.   

 

2. This is an entirely new offense and a new set of receivers.  I'm sure Wentz is having to think more than he has to in the past, it might be throwing his timing and mechanics off.

 

3.  He's never been pin-point accurate.  But he hasn't been inaccurate either.   

 

My guess is it gets better during camp and the pre-season and he's somewhere about where he was in 2021 by the time the season starts.

 

VERY IMPORTANT: He can't get hurt.  He got hurt in camp last year, and it really delayed him getting comfortable with the offense.  He didn't miss any time.  But he missed practice time and a lot of people attributed that to his slow start.  He can't start slow this year.  They need to win 3 of their first 4 games.  

[MisterPinstripe]

I'm not too worried about his accuracy. His career accuracy is 62.6, Prescotts is about 66 and everyone loves him. The difference comes out to a little over one more completion a game, we will be fine unless his outlier season in 2020 comes out again. 

[TheShredder]

Turner must play to the weaknesses in the defence they're facing. Has to learn what's most likely to work in their game plan compare to what those weaknesses are. I think when you have better pass catchers, strong armed QB, and 3 different RBs, the ability to attack makes the game quiet different. Offense likely goes how the OL plays. It's the weakness on offense and must get healthy and practice. Clock is ticking.

[Commander Wolffe]

I will wait until the preseason games before panicking about accuracy issues. There is an adjustment period that Wentz is going through at the moment. New everything. 

 

Scott is also gaining a better understanding on what works well and doesn't. This is all apart of the process. Looking forward to game action and the adjustments made thereafter.

[kingdaddy]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

2. This is an entirely new offense and a new set of receivers.  I'm sure Wentz is having to think more than he has to in the past, it might be throwing his timing and mechanics off.

C'mon....if a guy is open and you're an NFL QB then the pass needs to be made. You can't be making excuses for him when reports are that he's making the right reads, guys are open and he's missing them badly. 

Now, I won't judge Wentz or any player til I see them in actual games but this is the same guy who just got back from a trip with many of his receivers where they worked on routes, timing and chemistry. It doesn't sound like Howell is having any issues with wildness and he's a rookie who knows next to nothing. 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

What I want to know about Wentz's accuracy issues, how late are they in the play and is it in the pocket, outside the pocket, on the run, what?

[FootballZombie]

Just now, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

What I want to know about Wentz's accuracy issues, how late are they in the play and is it in the pocket, outside the pocket, on the run, what?

 

I think that may be thinking too far along.

 

The recent video people are referencing showed Wentz having issues connecting with guys in a throw line. No O-line, No D, just a QB throwing to a WR against air.

 

Based off that I'd say right now, your better off keeping things simple. I'd think about looking for problems in mechanics, or timing w/ receivers before worrying about the accuracy problems and where they occur during practice plays. Clearly there is something effecting accuracy that is present even when we remove pass rush pressure, knowing the plays, seeing things develop, ect.

 

In the pocket, out of the pocket, on the run... those are a bit irrelevant when he is struggling a bit in a throw line. If he does not look good there, he dang sure wont when you introduce more variables. Until he either fixes the mechanics problem, gets the timing better, or "gets loose"/"knocks the rust off", he will continue to struggle.

[zCommander]

1 hour ago, Commander Wolffe said:

I will wait until the preseason games before panicking about accuracy issues. There is an adjustment period that Wentz is going through at the moment. New everything.

 

There is no adjustment period. His first year with the Eagles he was 62.4. In his career the highest accuracy he has ever had was in 2018 with 69.6. Other season has always been in the low 60s. Lowest was 57.4 in 2020. He is not going to magically improve. But, maybe in Turner's offense he might do better than last year. TH had higher accuracy in Turner's system last year than Wentz did with the Colts. So there might be hope.

[Voice_of_Reason]

19 minutes ago, zCommander said:

year. TH had higher accuracy in Turner's system last year than Wentz did with the Colts. So there might be hope.

Sigh.

 

 

[Commander Wolffe]

24 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

There is no adjustment period. His first year with the Eagles he was 62.4. In his career the highest accuracy he has ever had was in 2018 with 69.6. Other season has always been in the low 60s. Lowest was 57.4 in 2020. He is not going to magically improve. But, maybe in Turner's offense he might do better than last year. TH had higher accuracy in Turner's system last year than Wentz did with the Colts. So there might be hope.

 

New team. New scheme.  New players. New coaches. There is an adjustment period.

 

Interesting, considering the historical evidence about his lack of accuracy he has predominantly been in west coast offensives that appear to prioritize timing, rhythm and accuracy. 

 

What if we utilize the combination of the deep passing game, quick hitters and then our rushing attack for balance. All that being said it's the first week. Even with the adjustment period, the beat reporters quickly shot down any Heinicke talk. If anything they seem more intrigued with the Heinicke and Sam Howell comparison. The depth of this team will be fun to watch and make the preseason more exciting then in years past.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

4 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

Wentz is not an accurate QB (neither is Mahomes or Allen, though much better QBs than Wentz) let the dude gunsling, be a playmaker, and throw left handed passes

 

 

No, do NOT let him do that part in bold lol...

 

[TheShredder]

1 hour ago, zCommander said:

 

There is no adjustment period. His first year with the Eagles he was 62.4. In his career the highest accuracy he has ever had was in 2018 with 69.6. Other season has always been in the low 60s. Lowest was 57.4 in 2020. He is not going to magically improve. But, maybe in Turner's offense he might do better than last year. TH had higher accuracy in Turner's system last year than Wentz did with the Colts. So there might be hope.

Where's Allen Iverson when you need him!

Dudes going to make some plays...We've all seen it.

Edited August 1, 2022 by TheShredder

[moondog]

My concern is the layups. We all agree he need to take them. And we have the players to support it. Yet there have been several posts a while back in this thread showing he really struggles with accuracy on short passes. Those 5+ yard layups to the backs that set us up are huge in this offense. If he can’t hit them, it’s gonna put him in longer situations under pressure which he really struggles with. 
 

Im in the group that thinks he’s probably the best QB we’ve had in 20-30 years. Certainly from a skill set pov. But that doesn’t guarantee he’ll have better success than those we’ve had in the past. I’m pulling for him big time and am glad we have him. But it’s paramount he can consistently hit Gibson and McKissic out of the backfield for this offense to thrive. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

44 minutes ago, TheShredder said:

Where's Allen Iverson when you need him!

Dudes going to make some plays...We've all seen it.

What’s the saying?…”How you practice is how you play.”