The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Koolblue13]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Similar size, similar speed.  Mariota abpit 10 pounds heavier. 

 

Ridder isn't my top desire.  but he did the main thing I wanted to see from him yesterday whiich is showcase his athleticism.  Ridder is the longest journey for me among these QBs, I was touting him quite a bit during the 2020 college season when he wasn't as well known as now.   

 

 

 

 

 

Everytime you echo the winner stuff it makes me think of Tua, that's the same line so many used about him -- feels like you are jinxing him.    Tua has been IMO dissappointing so far -- not terrible but mediocre. 

Winning at Alabama and winning at Cincinnati is a big difference. I was never high on Tua, but the Dolphins are now. I'd take a rookie that you can grow with. 

[Est.1974]

I’m not sure we will get away with waiting until the second round.

 

Irrespective of value/where people think these QBs should be drafted, there’s a whole load of QB desperation in the league.

 

Last year we’d have taken Fields or Jones is they had fallen to our pick. Same with Trask if he’d lasted on day 2. 
 

Not going to be good enough this year, I think it is inevitable that we need to reach in terms of value if we want to add a QB in the draft. Necessary evil this season.

[CobraCommander]

Desmond is that Dude. I feel it in my bones. He's the next Deshaun Watson without the deviant sexual behavior. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Currently for me it's Willis, Ridder and Corral in no particular order.  I'd be happy with all 3.  I know general consensus is that Pickett is the most NFL ready and NFL ready is ideal, but the combination of small hands and the weakest arm among the bunch moves me off of him. 

[RWJ]

11 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

I’m not sure we will get away with waiting until the second round.

 

Irrespective of value/where people think these QBs should be drafted, there’s a whole load of QB desperation in the league.

 

Last year we’d have taken Fields or Jones is they had fallen to our pick. Same with Trask if he’d lasted on day 2. 
 

Not going to be good enough this year, I think it is inevitable that we need to reach in terms of value if we want to add a QB in the draft. Necessary evil this season.

I agree and I think the RR and Co. know it.  

[OtisDriftwood25]

9 hours ago, RWJ said:

Willis didn't light it up either?  Who looked the best Otis?Big talent, accuracy to be desired. He was as predicted for me. I heard everyone saying how he lit up his interviews. I listened to his media session and one thing really struck me. He used the words…it’s just a game. I don’t think you hear that from Tom Brady or Lamar Jackson. First off it’s a job now and you are about to be the face of a multi billion dollar organization. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by OtisDriftwood25

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Willis, Corral at 11. Ridder, Strong in a trade back. Although if the staff loves Ridder just take him at 11 if the first two are gone. Don’t get cute. But I feel like Ridder could slide to end 1 or R2

[Conn]

You guys are definitely making me take a second look at Ridder, I don’t want to get caught up in athleticism that his game isn’t necessarily built around at the next level, but it is certainly a plus and the intangibles are there 

[D’Pablo]

Yay, Ridder! Been on that train for two years!

[Koolblue13]

Hopefully Denver resigning Teddy is them pushing QB off for another year and I hope the Panthers take Watson. Get Pitt to come up to 11 for Willis. Take Ridder at 20 and load up day 2 picks.

[Voice_of_Reason]

48 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Willis showed out last night but apparently has accuracy issues still. But the traits are all there. 

The question with accuracy issues is always "is it fixable?"    The other thing is, is it actually accuracy, or is it anticipation?  And sometimes the two things get co-mingled a bit.

 

I've heard many coaches, including Mike Shanahan, Andy Reid, Mike Holmgren (interestingly, all off of the Bill Walsh tree) basically say you can't really teach anticipation.  The player either intrinsically throws with anticipation, or doesn't. You can work on it, but (and this is my analogy) it's like perfect pitch. For musicians, this is basically the gift when you hear a note, you can identify the note and you can tell if the note is in tune.  You don't have to work on it, you just know.  (I was a conducting major in college. I did NOT have perfect pitch.  I had some friends who did.) Either you have it, or you don't.  If you don't have it, that doesn't end your career, but it is a limitation.  (For me, the limitation pushed me into the business world instead of the music world, because I would have tapped out as a really popular HS or college concert band director.  Which would have been fun, but not entirely what I wanted to do.)

 

Accuracy can be improved IF it's a mechanical issue which can be identified and then fixed over time.  Maybe the base is wrong, the footwork is wrong, the player throws off their back foot, they don't step into the throw, arm angle can be corrected, etc.  If there are technical issues which can be worked on, then accuracy can be improved.

 

The other question is, is it really accuracy, or is it comfort with the pass catchers.  There is something to the fact the QB has to be on the same page as the receiver.  If the pair has just started working together, or the receiver isn't where he's supposed to be, that can look like accuracy issues.  But if the QB is supposed to throw the ball to a spot with anticipation, meaning BEFORE the receiver makes his break to the ball, and then the receiver is, for whatever reason, late or not tight with his route, it can look like the QB missed him, but the ball was where it was supposed to be.  

If a player is technically sound, chemistry with the receiver is not an issue, and still inaccurate, history tells us that won't really improve much.  There are always exceptions, but by the time a player gets to the NFL, if they are inaccurate (with the caveats above) they tend to stay that way.

 

I have ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how that applies to Willis.  But I bet it's something the scouts, coaches and FOs are going to spend an awful lot of time trying to uncover.  Because if he just can't hit what he's throwing at and they don't think it can improve, it really, really, really limits his ceiling.  If they think it can improve with coaching, repetition and technique, then it's just a matter if you have the time to develop him, because you don't want to rush him out there without sound fundamentals.  

[JamesMadisonSkins]

1 minute ago, Koolblue13 said:

Hopefully Denver resigning Teddy is them pushing QB off for another year and I hope the Panthers take Watson. Get Pitt to come up to 11 for Willis. Take Ridder at 20 and load up day 2 picks.

 

Teddy + Lock are not a good combination. I can't remember if Lock is a FA or not, but them bringing back Bridgewater doesn't change much for me. If anything, it means they're going all-in on a rookie at 9 and have Teddy to bridge to that.

[Voice_of_Reason]

56 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Teddy and Wentz staying put.

Did I miss something?  I hadn't seen definitive word on Teddy or Wentz....

[veteranskinsfan]

On the radio this morning they said Teddy will be the starting quarterback for the Broncos.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

Good news: With multiple guys looking like they're possibly franchise-caliber QBs all of a sudden, we are in a much better position than we were, say, 1 month ago.

 

Bad news: this could be the usual off-season media push to focus on the QB position even in a bad draft, and we end up like 2019 where you have 1 guy go 5, another guy go 15, and then a few 2nd/3rd round types. And 3 years later, none are good?

 

Either way, if the concensus ends up being that Willis, Corral, Pickett and Ridder are all 1st round caliber QBs, that's a very good thing for us. We just won't know if that's the case until the 1st round is over, and we see how many of these guys are drafted.

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Did I miss something?  I hadn't seen definitive word on Teddy or Wentz....

 

I also couldn't find anything, thought maybe I had missed some news, but as of now Bridgewater is not re-signed.

[Skinsinparadise]

51 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Winning at Alabama and winning at Cincinnati is a big difference. I was never high on Tua, but the Dolphins are now. I'd take a rookie that you can grow with. 

 

Corral and Ridder were outgunned against Alabama.  Ridder IMO with the better supporting cast.  It was a big game.  And Ridder was terrible that day.  Corral wasn't hot but played IMO signficantly better than Ridder against Alabama.

 

I am ok with Ridder but IMO, to each their own but IMHO the winner stuff is overstated.  If he even gave Alabama a fight, like Corral did, maybe I'd be swayed because for me the label winner includes playing big in big games against the odds.  With Tua it wasn't just because Alabama won, but someone stuck that label on him saying he's just the kind of dude who wins, etc.  Mac Jones didn't get that same label. 

 

He definitely has some tools.  He's intriguing.  I am OK with him -- I am OK with really all top 6 for different reasons.  I think he's the biggest wildcard of the bunch because of his wild inconsistencies as a player.  Doesn't surprise me at all reading the Athletic article about how he's the Qb (along with Howell) that its hard for the reporter to get a beat on because NFL teams are all over the map on him. 

 

IMHO above all these QBs, Ridder needs a big supporting cast.  It's not because I don't think he can make plays on his own -- any QB with mobility can create.  It's that like I've been saying for months, Ridder is like the tale of two cities.  He's a totally different guy sometimes even within the same game.  I get why Logan Paulsen said he reminds him some of Heinicke.  To me he's not that much like Heinikce.  But I agree with Paulsen's specific point about Ridder like Heinicke can look good and then all of a sudden his accuracy inexplicably disappears in a game.

 

If I had to pick a common thread from when Ridder is at his best.  And granted EVERY QB is like this but to me its much more pronounced with him.  Give him really good protection and with receivers who get wide open.  The dude seems like a beast when his receivers are streaking wide open -- he almost never missed his mark on those throws.  But when the windows tighten and the pressure is on him, he sometimes looks like a totally different QB.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[JamesMadisonSkins]

I also can't see a scenario in which more than 2 QBs go ahead of us.

 

I think Carolina could easily go Willis/Pickett at #6. Then Denver goes Willis/Pickett/Corral at #9. My hope would be that one of them falls in love with Pickett, pushing Corral / Willis down to us.

 

Could we trade to #8 and get our guy? Absolutely, and doing so from #11 likely only costs us a 3rd round pick.

 

Worst case? Pickett to Carolina, Corral to Denver, Steelers trade to #10 to take Willis. Then we either trade back, take a stud at #11 and trade up from the 2nd to get Ridder or Strong near the end of round 1.

Edited March 4, 2022 by JamesMadisonSkins

[Koolblue13]

6 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Did I miss something?  I hadn't seen definitive word on Teddy or Wentz....

Yes. Denver said today they're bringing him back and yesterday the Colts retreated on dumping Wentz.

8 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

Teddy + Lock are not a good combination. I can't remember if Lock is a FA or not, but them bringing back Bridgewater doesn't change much for me. If anything, it means they're going all-in on a rookie at 9 and have Teddy to bridge to that.

Probably right. Just wishful thinking, but the talent that will be available at key positions when a QB is there can't be over stated.

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Corral and Ridder were outgunned against Alabama.  Ridder IMO with the better supporting cast.  It was a big game.  And Ridder was terrible that day.  Corral wasn't hot but played IMO signficantly better than Ridder against Alabama.

 

I am ok with Ridder but IMO, to each their own but IMHO the winner stuff is overstated.  If he even gave Alabama a fight, like Corral did, maybe I'd be swayed because for me the label winner includes playing big in big games against the odds.  With Tua it wasn't just because Alabama won, but someone stuck that label on him saying he's just the kind of dude who wins, etc.  Mac Jones didn't get that same label. 

 

He definitely has some tools.  He's intriguing.  I am OK with him -- I am OK with really all top 6 for different reasons.  I think he's the biggest wildcard of the bunch because of his wild inconsistencies as a player.  Doesn't surprise me at all reading the Athletic article about how he's the Qb (along with Howell) that its hard for the reporter to get a beat on because NFL teams are all over the map on him. 

 

IMHO above all these QBs, Ridder needs a big supporting cast.  It's not because I don't think he can make plays on his own -- any QB with mobility can create.  It's that like I've been saying for months, Ridder is like the tale of two cities.  He's a totally different guy sometimes even within the same game.  I get why Logan Paulsen said he reminds him some of Heinicke.  To me he's not that much like Heinikce.  But I agree with Paulsen's specific point about Ridder like Heinicke looking good and then all of a sudden his accuracy inexplicably disappears in a game.

 

If I had to pick a common thread from when Ridder is at his best.  And granted EVERY QB is like this but to me its much more pronounced with him.  Give him really good protection and with receivers who get wide open.  The dude seems like a beast when his receivers are streaking wide open -- he almost never missed his mark on those throws.  But when the windows tighten and the pressure is on him, he sometimes looks like a totally different QB

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fixable mechanics under pressure. He's got all the tools and the size to play.

[JamesMadisonSkins]

The PFF grade for Corral is why I keep him toward the top, maybe even ahead of Willis. Then, factoring in for performance under pressure, it's a pretty lackluster class with the exception, I think, of Corral.

 

To me, Corral seems like the most "rivera" option. Willis might have the most elite Top 5 NFL QB traits if he can clean stuff up. Ridder and Strong seem to have some of the pieces but some question marks, which is why I would feel much better spending a 2nd or late 1st on them in a trade-back scenario.

 

Pair any of those guys with Winston or Mariota or Trubisky, and we aren't "set" by any means, but at least we have both short and long term opportunity at that position, and we haven't sacrificed draft capital OR salary cap to get there.

And I think that's why we are linked to every veteran option. This staff knows they can't put Heinecke or a rookie out there Week 1 and expect good things beyond mediocre. Put Mariota or Winston out there in a competition with Heinecke, and you at least have a chance for big upside. Throw in the rookie, and if they shine in camp, maybe you start working them in. If they're raw, at least you have 2 options ahead of them and let them sit until the season is at a place where you have to play them to see what you have.

[Inigo Montoya]

This is working out well for Corral to still be there at 11, that’s the dude!

but I’m cool with Willis or Corral. Hate the Pickett talk. Hopefully the first domino of M Mariota can fall when FA opens up. 
 

[OtisDriftwood25]

I like all 6 quarterbacks in this draft including Strong. I want more picks and to sit back. Pick up Marriott’s or Trubisky.

[Voice_of_Reason]

8 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Hopefully Denver resigning Teddy is them pushing QB off for another year and I hope the Panthers take Watson. Get Pitt to come up to 11 for Willis. Take Ridder at 20 and load up day 2 picks.

I don't think so. I think it means they have their "bridge" QB and they can swing freely, and they are in position to get any of the QBs they want.  They passed on Fields last year.  I don't think they'll do so again.  

 

I actually think this really indicates they don't think they're getting Rodgers, and therefore they have to move into our playbook: Sign a guy who can start a bit and draft the best player you can.  The only difference, they pick before us.  

 

The question is, who would they target?  If they KNOW they have Teddy and are comfortable with him starting the year, then drafting Willis and red-shirting him would be an option, and there wouldn't be a rush to play him.

 

This is clearly a "glass half empty" view of the world.  I hope I'm wrong. 

 

15 minutes ago, Conn said:

You guys are definitely making me take a second look at Ridder, I don’t want to get caught up in athleticism that his game isn’t necessarily built around at the next level, but it is certainly a plus and the intangibles are there 

For reasons, I think Ridder just gets a bad rap because he played at Cincy.  But he is athletic, and a multiple year starter.

 

I actually also like Strong IF AND ONLY IF the knee checks out. You gotta look at some MRIs on that knee and make sure you think it's going to hold up.  I know his mobility is "meh" to non-existent, but if you can move in the pocket really well and throw the ball well, you can win 7 SBs.  (No, I'm not projecting Strong as Brady. Just saying, you don't HAVE to be mobile to have success.  Though it helps).

 

I'm starting to feel like there's just no way they are going to trade up for any of these guys, and if Pickett and Willis are gone at 11 (which I think is very possible, because QBs are over-drafted every year), they will either take the 3rd one there, or trade back a few picks and grab Ridder or Strong in the second, either of which SHOULD be available.  

 

If you're going to start Mitch Mariota anyway this year, then you have the luxury of taking a guy in the second and seeing what happens, as long as they have the physical tools to be the starter down the road.  If you get to the end of the year and you don't think he's the guy, ok, fine, you try again next year.  

 

But I think there could be starting upside to either Ridder or Strong (knee issues not withstanding) in the right situation.  And if the right situation is they sit for a year, and we're going to do that anyway, it might not be a bad play...

 

16 minutes ago, JamesMadisonSkins said:

Willis, Corral at 11. Ridder, Strong in a trade back. Although if the staff loves Ridder just take him at 11 if the first two are gone. Don’t get cute. But I feel like Ridder could slide to end 1 or R2

Yeah, this is where Martin needs to make his money.  In theory, you REALLY don't want to take Ridder at 11.  Unless ALL of the pundits are wrong and a bunch of teams have first half of the first round grades on him.  I don't think you can wait until 43 (or whatever their second round pick is) though.  So, maybe there is a way to trade back 5-10 spots, or you have to trade back up from the second into the back part of the first round.

 

I agree, don't get cute and lose your prospect.  But they also need to maximize the asset value.  

 

It's tough.  The draft is a combination of poker (you don't know the cards the other players are holding, a game of chicken (the hard part about playing chicken is knowing when to flinch), and a graduate level data science course.  

[kingdaddy]

DeShawn Watson......The Commanders might be a team that could easily take on Watson, even given his uncertain situation, because they have a QB in Heinicke who can buy them time until Watson clears any suspension. Think about it, We have virtually no money tied up in QB and Houston likes Davis Mills moving forward; they don't want a QB in return. We can offer Houston two firsts and a player (Sweat?), get Watson in return and roll with TH and his 1.5 mil salary while paying Watson his large contract number. 

If I'm Houston and looking to deal Watson the Commanders would be a team I'd be interested in talking to.

This could be a scenario where TH does start again assuming Watson starts the season under suspension. I know two guys who will poke holes in this theory but I can see this being a potential scenario where we land the big fish (even as character flawed as he is) and still field a formidable team til he's cleared to play. 

OBTW, I don't think Watson should be the guy we get just because of his off field issues but I think we could easily take on his salary AND win with TH til he can play. 

Go ahead boys, let me have it.

[Conn]

It’s not only a bad and despicable move that I hope we don’t make, it’s also conveniently another desperate wish-casting scenario that keeps Heinicke as the starter for longer, which is both really funny and a non-starter for me personally. I know a couple others will disagree. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

DeShawn Watson......The Commanders might be a team that could easily take on Watson, even given his uncertain situation, because they have a QB in Heinicke who can buy them time until Watson clears any suspension. Think about it, We have virtually no money tied up in QB and Houston likes Davis Mills moving forward; they don't want a QB in return. We can offer Houston two firsts and a player (Sweat?), get Watson in return and roll with TH and his 1.5 mil salary while paying Watson his large contract number. 

If I'm Houston and looking to deal Watson the Commanders would be a team I'd be interested in talking to.

This could be a scenario where TH does start again assuming Watson starts the season under suspension. I know two guys who will poke holes in this theory but I can see this being a potential scenario where we land the big fish (even as character flawed as he is) and still field a formidable team til he's cleared to play. 

OBTW, I don't think Watson should be the guy we get just because of his off field issues but I think we could easily take on his salary AND win with TH til he can play. 

Go ahead boys, let me have it.

Just as I was thinking @zCommander had taken the torch and ran with it as King Bee of the Heineke Hive, @kingdaddy comes buzzing in with this hot take.  Pheweeee.