The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[skinny21]

34 minutes ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

I think ideally we should bring in a VET and look further into the draft to take a guy that may have potential and we can season. Of course if Watson is allowed to play id all in trade for him, but realistically thats not a possibility. Bringing in a vet AND taking a qb in first round just to reach for one doesn't make sense to me, maybe even wait till next year to take a qb but what we have currently isn't gonna work so we need to address it, I just hope we don't reach like we foolishly usually do. 

Agree with most of this, but I highly doubt they decide to draft a qb they don’t like just to say “hey look, we drafted a guy in the 1st”.  Maybe I’m reading you wrong though.

10 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I like Taylor as a backup.   But the combination of questionable decision making, accuracy and arm strength is too much for me.  And all of that is backed big time by metrics -- adjusted completion rate is one of the worst in the league, ditto turnover worthy passes.  Yet his YPA is near the bottom.  When you aren't getting the ball down the field and you got accuracy issues -- that's a lethal combination IMO

 

Your point to me applies better to Trubisky.  Trubisky like Heinicke has awful adjusted completion rates yet still has a bad YPA.  On some metrics there isn't much of a difference between Trubisky and Heinicke or even Sam Darnold.

 

And I don't buy Trubisky's issues are mostly about Nagy.  Either you throw accurately or you don't.   But with Trubisky he is actually willing to run, unlike Heinicke for the most part.  And Trubisky has the size to take a hit.  My gut is Trubisky won't be turned around into an above average QB.  But he at least has an NFL arm and can run and take a hit.  So while I don't love the idea I can be talked into hey maybe Trubisky has enough upside to improve him.

 

With Heinicke, I think we are getting everything we can out of him. 

 

 

 

I think the end of the season lends a lot of weight to the idea we got everything we could out of Heinicke.  For me, it’s not that I disagree on that front, it’s more that I think there’s still a chance he could offer a bit more.  I agree that inaccuracy (which is bad enough) coupled with a poor arm is a killer.  As I said though, he had a stretch (or some stretches) where his accuracy was quite good, and I’m talking hitting outstretched hands, not statistical completion %.  So I do wonder if he could get more consistent with that, and part of why I do is because of the changes we saw, like how he protected himself, taking checkdowns a bit more often, adding mass in the offseason, and then those glimpses of him playing loose, his accuracy changing for a time, and so on.  So I can’t rule out some growth (except in arm strength).  The other aspect that makes me question whether he’s hit his ceiling is he seemed to have a Jekyll and Hyde thing going on - seemed like at times he’d convince himself not to run in some games, or that he couldn’t make a mistake, or that he had to make a play, etc.  All things you might expect from an inexperienced (let alone limited) qb, particularly one that was dealing with and up and down defense, lack of points, losing key pass catchers, etc.  Basically, I think the reason he seemed to play a bit better in 2-minute situations is he didn’t have time to get into his own head.  If he could figure out how to carry that into the rest of the game (which he did seem to in some games), maybe he could become a lower mid-tier starter.  Odds are against him though, and we can’t afford to give him that chance to prove it.

 

Anyway, it’s all a moot point because I just can’t see him starting next year.  Not just because the staff has intimated such, but I expect them to bring in 2 qbs that they hope can start.  In fact, I’d be pretty surprised if he was the 2nd string unless maybe they draft a non-1st round qb and put them at 3rd string for a time, or if they bring in a Mariota type and they have some trouble picking up the system.

 

My overall point though is I want a (potential) franchise qb, and I worry the staff will go the ‘safe’ route of a Jimmy G with the goal being competency over promise/potential… and give up draft capital and significant cap space to that end.  I’d far prefer a 1st round rookie, even if that results in Heinicke starting some games (which it shouldn’t).

[NeverSurrender]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Elite is a strong word to use to describe his awareness and escapability.  He's crafty for sure at escaping out of situations one shouldn't get out of.  But dude will eat a sack vs. throw it away too often to be considered elite in the pocket.  I guess you could contribute this to his arm strength somewhat, but he attempts passes he has absolutely no business attempting.  It's hard for me to put that solely on the arm and not point to his decision making instead, as he has to know what he's not capable of.

 

 

Nope.  He has Elite pocket awareness and escapeability, reminds me of Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers when escaping a sack and Drew Brees sliding in the pocket.  he feels pressure from the back side at an Elite level.  Those traits are what got him where he is today, which is saying a lot for him.  

Not arguing with anything else about TH's game, but these things are what makes him somewhat competent at the NFL level. 

[mh86]

I just hope that assuming our FO wants Jimmy G, another organization values him more than us and offers something better. Either way, I’m along for the ride and will hope for the best.

[Koolblue13]

 

[NoCalMike]

Circling back to Jimmy G.  Although I am definitely lukewarm on him as the QB, I would still take him over Heinicke, it's just that I don't feel that he is the kind of QB you break the bank to go out and get.  Stafford, I likely wouldn't have cared who or what we had to give up because the thought of him as the franchise QB over the next decade or so means the front office would have ample time to fill in holes in the team they had to give up in exchange for the one position on the team you desperately need a mainstay at if you not only want to compete with the best teams but on a consistent basis.  There is a reason that every decade there are usually 3-6 teams that always seem to be in the hunt despite the sprinkling in of some isolated down seasons.

 

I would accept Jimmy G as a short term solution as long as they weren't giving up a 1st round pick (and/or more) and still go draft a QB behind him. 

[mistertim]

13 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Nope.  He has Elite pocket awareness and escapeability, reminds me of Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers when escaping a sack and Drew Brees sliding in the pocket.  he feels pressure from the back side at an Elite level.  Those traits are what got him where he is today, which is saying a lot for him.  

Not arguing with anything else about TH's game, but these things are what makes him somewhat competent at the NFL level. 

 

Heinicke also took a lot of sacks. IIRC there were some metrics out there that showed him as a QB who was responsible for a fair amount of his own sacks...close to the top of the league.

 

I don't think it's just his arm that held him back, though that's a major thing. If you look at some of @Skinsinparadiseposts about adjusted completion percentage, YPA, TO worthy plays, etc you'll see that Heinicke was near the bottom of the league. His QBR was 23rd in the league, and PFF gave him the 33rd ranked passing grade.

 

The main thing Heinicke had going for him was his ability to scramble, but for whatever reason it seems like he turned that off a lot this season...even though Rivera and Turner literally said in public that they wanted him to do it more often. So he basically removed his own biggest asset from his game.

[NoCalMike]

22 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Nope.  He has Elite pocket awareness and escapeability, reminds me of Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers when escaping a sack and Drew Brees sliding in the pocket.  he feels pressure from the back side at an Elite level.  Those traits are what got him where he is today, which is saying a lot for him.  

Not arguing with anything else about TH's game, but these things are what makes him somewhat competent at the NFL level. 

 

In the modern NFL though it seems like being able to scramble and escape the pocket is becoming more of the norm period.  Of course it varies QB to QB, but many more QB's seem to utilize their legs by design now than 20 years ago.  The other downside to Taylor running is that because of his lack of arm strength, if he can't stop, plant his feet, and reset you are basically cutting off 60% or more of the field for when players might break open downfield as defenders pursue the QB. Throwing on the run is just as, if not more important to be able to execute as merely scrambling.

[Redskins 2021]

I think if we want Jimmy G we have him. No other team has the cap room to get him without other major moves. 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

20 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

Nope.  He has Elite pocket awareness and escapeability, reminds me of Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers when escaping a sack and Drew Brees sliding in the pocket.  he feels pressure from the back side at an Elite level.  Those traits are what got him where he is today, which is saying a lot for him.  

Not arguing with anything else about TH's game, but these things are what makes him somewhat competent at the NFL level. 

Strongly disagree with using the word ‘elite’ to describe any aspect of Heineke’s game.  My eyes can’t roll any further in the back of my head when hearing him compared to the likes of Rodgers or Brees, even if only for the reason you stated.

 

But there’s no real reason to continue rehashing  this debate.  We’ll have a new QB to argue about soon enough.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

 

I dont understand the either we suck or were SB great mindset. There's a ton of space between the Lions (or WFT) and the Chiefs or 49ers and I'd much rather operate at the top of that spectrum.  

 

Me, too.

 

I get the mindset of stinking untl you get your Joe Burrow, etc.  But i think the thought is delusional for two major reasons.

 

A.  Ths ship is sinking here.  This isn't a franchise that can afford many more years of pain without this sinking deeper and deeper into the ocean.

 

B.  there are like 5-7 guys who are elite.   7-10 who are great  10-14 who are consistently good.   We all love that elite QB but heck we've struggled to find a 10-14 guy.  So why are we so picky?

Edited January 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Redskins 2021]

I still can't believe that Haskins beat out Burrow for Ohio state job.

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Me, too.

 

I get the mindset of stinking untl you get your Joe Burrow, etc.  But i think the thought is delusional for two major reasons.

 

A.  Ths ship is sinking here.  This isn't a franchise that can afford many more years of pain without this sinking deeper and deeper into the ocean.

 

B.  there are like 5-7 guys who are elite.   7-10 who are great  10-14 who are consistently good.   We all love that elite QB but heck we've struggled to find a 10-14 guy.  So why are we so picky?

Agreed. This ship sunk years ago and is laying on the ocean bottom. We need to get to the surface, so we can learn to sail again.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Koolblue13]

Pretty innovative to build an offense around fumbling.

[88Comrade2000]

Cut Taylor now. He can spend time on his sister's couch.

 

What if Aaron or Russ tells the Commanders; they will come but Dan has to make a coaching change. They will have a role in picking their head coach.

 

Would you do it?

[shemp nixon]

2 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Cut Taylor now. He can spend time on his sister's couch.

 

What if Aaron or Russ tells the Commanders; they will come but Dan has to make a coaching change. They will have a role in picking their head coach.

 

Would you do it?

NO.

[NeverSurrender]

6 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Strongly disagree with using the word ‘elite’ to describe any aspect of Heineke’s game.  My eyes can’t roll any further in the back of my head when hearing him compared to the likes of Rodgers or Brees, even if only for the reason you stated.

 

But there’s no real reason to continue rehashing  this debate.  We’ll have a new QB to argue about soon enough.

 

 

You can roll your eyes to your brain if you want.  Im not saying the guy is Aaron Rodgers or Drew Brees. FFS he has similar attributes, Aaron Rodgers is Elite in just about every facet of his game.  Pocket and presence and escapability are two of those things he is Elite at.  TH shares those 2 traits.... AND ONLY THOSE TWO TRAITS.  Roll your eyes if you want but its true.  Yes we will have a new QB next year and if you we cant be objective about what they are good/Bad/Elite at then your just in denial.  I would roll my eyes at your comment but that's childish.

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Cut Taylor now. He can spend time on his sister's couch.

 

What if Aaron or Russ tells the Commanders; they will come but Dan has to make a coaching change. They will have a role in picking their head coach.

 

Would you do it?

 

Why cut him? He's a good backup and we have him for cheap this year. That makes no sense.

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Heinicke also took a lot of sacks. IIRC there were some metrics out there that showed him as a QB who was responsible for a fair amount of his own sacks...close to the top of the league.

 

I don't think it's just his arm that held him back, though that's a major thing. If you look at some of @Skinsinparadiseposts about adjusted completion percentage, YPA, TO worthy plays, etc you'll see that Heinicke was near the bottom of the league. His QBR was 23rd in the league, and PFF gave him the 33rd ranked passing grade.

 

The main thing Heinicke had going for him was his ability to scramble, but for whatever reason it seems like he turned that off a lot this season...even though Rivera and Turner literally said in public that they wanted him to do it more often. So he basically removed his own biggest asset from his game.

 

For those who think that the criticisms of Heinicke is about hating him (which it isn't obviously) stay away from PFF and other stat measuring sites.  Because the picture they paint is;  even though Heinicke has some of the best protection in the league, he didn't get the ball down the field but yet with these safer passes he still was one of the more inaccurate QBs who is a turnover waiting to happen.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Inigo Montoya]

17 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

 

I would accept Jimmy G as a short term solution as long as they weren't giving up a 1st round pick (and/or more) and still go draft a QB behind him. 

 

I'm ok with Jimmy G as others have said with a 3 year deal... I think you make this move to draft your QB next year. Use this years first on a stud MLB, you've traded your 3rd and maybe Payne to get Jimmy G (a QB is going to cost more than we think, always does this is the same comp as the Alex smith trade in the same scenario) and draft a stud bell-cow RB with your 2nd. 

Go get A Rob or a good 2nd receiver to open up the passing game, find a machine to clone Deebo S...

[Koolblue13]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Why cut him? He's a good backup and we have him for cheap this year. That makes no sense.

He's not an NFL QB. I'd rather roll with Allen. He's not good, but belongs in the league. He at least has the physical tools, just not the decision making.

 

Allen definitely has something Heinicke doesn't have. Upside.

[Redskins 2021]

TH is not a starter but is definitely a top 5 back up. 

[NoCalMike]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He's not an NFL QB. I'd rather roll with Allen. He's not good, but belongs in the league. He at least has the physical tools, just not the decision making.

 

Allen definitely has something Heinicke doesn't have. Upside.

 

I agree, I am not even sure why there is a huge push to keep Heinicke as the back up (to be clear I am not against it, just not sure why there is a huge push for it).  

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

He's not an NFL QB. I'd rather roll with Allen. He's not good, but belongs in the league. He at least has the physical tools, just not the decision making.

 

Allen definitely has something Heinicke doesn't have. Upside.

 

I'd be ok with Allen as well, though he's not under contract so we'd have to extend him (or give him another 1 year deal). Heinicke is already on the books for this season and we wouldn't really save any money by cutting him. 

[Skinsinparadise]

part of the sell to come here is pass protection, time to throw the ball