The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Zim489]

30 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Did you see how well a "can't miss" prospect like Trevor Lawrence played this year?

 

How many starting QBs in this league have been deemed "the solution"....maybe 10?

 

The fact is most starting NFL QBs are fighting for their job every single season.  Heinicke is no different, except I think he's one of the top 15 QBs in the league.

 

Yeah, Jimmy G's team made the playoffs....but not because of him.  

 

The 49ers would be a better team with Heinicke as their QB.  The WFT would have finished 3 - 14 or 4 - 13 with Jimmy G as their QB.

List me all the QBs you think are better

[Theismann to HOF]

1 minute ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

 

 

Yeah, I did answer your question.  Jimmy G. is not capable of leading 5 game-winning drives the way that Heinicke did this season.  In fact, Jimmy G. came very close to blowing it last night with that horrible INT he threw against Dallas.

 

Heinicke is better than Jimmy G.

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

List me all the QBs you think are better

 

Better than who?  Heinicke?

[Redskins 2021]

1 minute ago, KillBill26 said:

I don't understand why people think the raiders will get rid of Carr.  He is an above average NFL QB who had success this year with not much receiving help and waller missing time. Carr is only 30 and the raiders aren't hurting for cap space.  The new coach should be excited he inherited a solid QB instead of starting from scratch which many new hires have to do. 

New coach new Gm new players. May not but they usually want to start fresh.

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 minute ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Yeah, I did answer your question.  Jimmy G. is not capable of leading 5 game-winning drives the way that Heinicke did this season.  In fact, Jimmy G. came very close to blowing it last night with that horrible INT he threw against Dallas.

 

Heinicke is better than Jimmy G.

[kingdaddy]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

Why are you trying to convince me about trading for Jimmy G? I wouldn’t trade for him. I think he’s better than TH, though.

 

I think we can upgrade TH fairly easily in the offseason. Heinicke won’t get better unless he finds a way to increase arm strength and pass velocity. That is what is holding him back. Not necessarily processing. He makes some bad decisions but every QB does. A lot of his turnovers stem from the ball taking too long to get to the receiver.

Yeah, that's why I think he'll get better with an offseason to work on his weaknesses. As far as upgrades for TH I'm wondering who you have in mind that would be easy to get? Ive pushed for Trubisky since the trade deadine but outside of him I just don't know who would be better than TH that's easy to acquire? 

[Theismann to HOF]

1 minute ago, kingdaddy said:

Yeah, that's why I think he'll get better with an offseason to work on his weaknesses. As far as upgrades for TH I'm wondering who you have in mind that would be easy to get? Ive pushed for Trubisky since the trade deadine but outside of him I just don't know who would be better than TH that's easy to acquire? 

 

I've seen zero evidence that Trubisky is better than Heinicke.  Trubisky would not have been able to lead 5 game-winning drives the way Heinicke did this season.  The WFT probably would have been 3 - 14 or 4 - 13 with Trubisky.

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Yeah, that's why I think he'll get better with an offseason to work on his weaknesses. As far as upgrades for TH I'm wondering who you have in mind that would be easy to get? Ive pushed for Trubisky since the trade deadine but outside of him I just don't know who would be better than TH that's easy to acquire? 

 

Arm strength is not something that is easily fixed. Generally even if strength is fixed there is form corrections which can hamper the player because their whole style gets thrown out. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I doubt the Raiders get rid of Carr, too.  But the cool thing is we are finally going to enter the world of we are about to find out about all of these things versus speculate.

 

The Stafford trade and Alex Smith one went down at the end of January.  Wonder if one happens this year?

[Ball Security]

Just now, Theismann to HOF said:

 

I've seen zero evidence that Trubisky is better than Heinicke.  Trubisky would not have been able to lead 5 game-winning drives the way Heinicke did this season.  The WFT probably would have been 3 - 14 or 4 - 13 with Trubisky.

You say that Heinicke is a top 15 QB.  Why did he fail to lead the offense to more than 20 points in over half his starts?  Is 21 points too high of a threshold?  He had a good line.  He had a 1000 yard back.

[Theismann to HOF]

10 minutes ago, KillBill26 said:

I don't understand why people think the raiders will get rid of Carr.  He is an above average NFL QB who had success this year with not much receiving help and waller missing time. Carr is only 30 and the raiders aren't hurting for cap space.  The new coach should be excited he inherited a solid QB instead of starting from scratch which many new hires have to do. 

 

Carr is not leaving the Raiders.  And even if he was, he would have no interest in playing for the WFT.  

[Skinsinparadise]

Carr doesn't have a no trade clause.  

 

But if we got a top 15 QB on our hands, maybe the Raiders trade Carr straight up for Heinicke?

[KillBill26]

11 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

New coach new Gm new players. May not but they usually want to start fresh.

I'd pounce in carr if he is available, but I'm guessing we won't have the chance.  I will take carrs backup, I like Mariota more than the other free agents.  Add a wr early in the draft and sign cordarelle Patterson and I think our offense can be significantly better.  If a qb we like is there at 11, even better.

 

[mistertim]

18 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Not the "arm talent"....yet he led 5 game-winning drives and completed 65% of his passes.  And he has athleticism and intangible qualities that most QBs lack.

 

That is total nonsense.

 

What is total nonsense? That Heinicke has a weak arm that limits the kinds of throws he can make? That's pretty much universally accepted by coaches and analysts alike. It's not exactly a controversial take.

 

Game winning drives and completion percentage don't necessarily have any correlation whatsoever with arm strength. During the brief winning streak after the bye it was easy to see that Turner had adjusted the offense around the run game and more short and intermediate passes to try and mitigate the issues with Heinicke's arm.

 

I get that you dig Heinicke and think he should be the starter this coming season...but you're basically a one-man band when it comes to that. Even other hardcore Heinicke lovers on here have pretty much accepted that he's not in the team's long term plans.

 

He was a fun story and provided some interesting moments throughout this past season. But it's over. It's beyond clear that the WFT coaches and FO don't see him as the guy. He's a backup. A good backup, but still a backup. The sooner you start to accept that the less it will sting when he's on the bench this coming season.

[Theismann to HOF]

10 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

You say that Heinicke is a top 15 QB.  Why did he fail to lead the offense to more than 20 points in over half his starts?  Is 21 points too high of a threshold?  He had a good line.  He had a 1000 yard back.

 

You do realize the offensive line was very depleted during the last 6 - 7 games of the season?  The WFT was on their freaking 4th string center, for crying out loud.

 

Half of the WFT starting wide receivers were also injured during most of the season, such as Curtis Samuel and Logan Thomas.  Dyami Brown also played very little due to injuries.

 

You all jump to conclusions about players too quickly.  No NFL QB plays their best football during their first season as a starter.  If that's the case, then Trevor Lawrence down in Jacksonville should go ahead and retire.

 

I like what I saw out of Heinicke this season.  The WFT should give Heinicke another season as starter and see what he can do.  He's earned it, in my opinion.

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Carr doesn't have a no trade clause.  

 

But if we got a top 15 QB on our hands, maybe the Raiders trade Carr straight up for Heinicke?

 

I'm not sure I would want to make that trade.

 

Why did Carr only score 15 points against this horrible WFT defense a few weeks ago?  At home??  I thought Heinicke outplayed Carr during that game.

 

I like Carr, but I don't think he is significantly better than Heinicke.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Theismann to HOF

[Ball Security]

5 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

You do realize the offensive line was very depleted during the last 6 - 7 games of the season?  The WFT was on their freaking 4th string center, for crying out loud.

 

Half of the WFT starting wide receivers were also injured during most of the season, such as Curtis Samuel and Logan Thomas.  Dyami Brown also played very little due to injuries.

 

You all jump to conclusions about players too quickly.  No NFL QB plays their best football during their first season as a starter.  If that's the case, then Trevor Lawrence down in Jacksonville should go ahead and retire.

 

I like what I saw out of Heinicke this season.  The WFT should give Heinicke another season as starter and see what he can do.  He's earned it, in my opinion.

So what’s the excuse for scoring 55 points over 4 games back in October?

[Skinsinparadise]

49 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

I'm not sure I would want to make that trade.

 

Why did Carr only score 15 points against this horrible WFT defense a few weeks ago?  At home??  I thought Heinicke outplayed Carr during that game.

 

I like Carr, but I don't think he is significantly better than Heinicke.

 

Maybe we get a pick back for that trade?  Heinicke for Carr and they throw in a 2nd rounder to sweeten the deal?  Would you do it then?

Edited January 18, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Ball Security]

9 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

You do realize the offensive line was very depleted during the last 6 - 7 games of the season?  The WFT was on their freaking 4th string center, for crying out loud.

 

Half of the WFT starting wide receivers were also injured during most of the season, such as Curtis Samuel and Logan Thomas.  Dyami Brown also played very little due to injuries.

 

You all jump to conclusions about players too quickly.  No NFL QB plays their best football during their first season as a starter.  If that's the case, then Trevor Lawrence down in Jacksonville should go ahead and retire.

 

I like what I saw out of Heinicke this season.  The WFT should give Heinicke another season as starter and see what he can do.  He's earned it, in my opinion.

 

I'm not sure I would want to make that trade.

 

Why did Carr only score 15 points against this horrible WFT defense a few weeks ago?  At home??  I thought Heinicke outplayed Carr during that game.

 

I like Carr, but I don't think he is significantly better than Heinicke.

The horrible defense that was in the middle of a stretch of giving up 17, 19, 21, 15, 15, 20 points?  That horrible defense?

[Theismann to HOF]

8 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

What is total nonsense? That Heinicke has a weak arm that limits the kinds of throws he can make? That's pretty much universally accepted by coaches and analysts alike. It's not exactly a controversial take.

 

Game winning drives and completion percentage don't necessarily have any correlation whatsoever with arm strength. During the brief winning streak after the bye it was easy to see that Turner had adjusted the offense around the run game and more short and intermediate passes to try and mitigate the issues with Heinicke's arm.

so

 

Game winning drives and completion percentage ABSOLUTELY correlate with arm strength.  If the defense knows that you're probably throwing the ball and they still can't stop you from completing passes down the field?  Yes, that shows Heinicke's arm strength is good enough to succeed in the NFL.

 

And, again, you all are too focused on arm strength.  Decision-making ability is a far more important success factor for NFL QBs.  Leading 5 game-winning drives in one season shows that Heinicke is very cool under pressure and that he makes very good decisions most of the time. 

 

You should not assume that most NFL QBs are as poised as Heinicke and that they handle end-of-game pressure as well as Heinicke does.  Because they do not.  

 

Brett Favre threw more INTs than any QB in history.  Perhaps his arm strength wasn't very good?

2 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

The horrible defense that was in the middle of a stretch of giving up 17, 19, 21, 15, 15, 20 points?  That horrible defense?

 

How about the defense that gave up 60% of 3rd down conversions during the first 7 games of the season?  The worst percentage in the NFL in 30 years.

 

The WFT defense was so bad at the beginning of the season that the team should have started 0 - 7.  The only reason the WFT was 2 - 5 is because Heinicke played outstanding against the Giants and Falcons.

[Rufus T Firefly]

7 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Game winning drives and completion percentage ABSOLUTELY correlate with arm strength.  If the defense knows that you're probably throwing the ball and they still can't stop you from completing passes down the field?  Yes, that shows Heinicke's arm strength is good enough to succeed in the NFL.

 

And, again, you all are too focused on arm strength.  Decision-making ability is a far more important success factor for NFL QBs.  Leading 5 game-winning drives in one season shows that Heinicke is very cool under pressure and that he makes very good decisions most of the time. 

 

You should not assume that most NFL QBs are as poised as Heinicke and that they handle end-of-game pressure as well as Heinicke does.  Because they do not.  

 

Brett Favre threw more INTs than any QB in history.  Perhaps his arm strength wasn't very good?

[kingdaddy]

2 hours ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Graded by who?  I don't buy it.  Stats don't tell the whole story.  At the end of the day, this game is about wins and losses and Heinicke won 5 very close games this season in tense, end-of-game situations.  I heard Tony Dungy say that he "loves" Heinicke during the Sunday night game against Dallas.  And he is a real expert, not one of these online "experts".

 

I don't believe most starting QBs in this league would have led the WFT to a 7 - 10 record.  Most starting QBs would have finished 3 - 14 or 4 -13 on this team.  The defense was absolutely horrible most of the season, the worst WFT defense since the 1960s.

I'm with you....I think Taylor gets more respect across the league and within his own team then he gets on this site. Bottom line is that we are beyond starving for our own Joe Burrow and that's totally understandable but they are just so hard to get. What's worse, not being able to find that guy or constantly drafting QB's in the top 5 or even multiple times with the #1 overall pick and striking out like Cleveland has done. Denver can't find one and they've drafted QB's high. 

Taylor Heinicke was one of our best players this year and without him who knows how bad we would've been. He needs help from the other units to be his best. You don't just beat Tom Brady and Russell Wilson by accident or luck. He beat them because he was solid and the rest of the team supported him with solid play....especially the defense. Going into Vegas and beating them is also no easy task. Lets see if Taylor can build on this season with more support from his teammates and an easier schedule.....If we don't find an upgrade.

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Game winning drives and completion percentage ABSOLUTELY correlate with arm strength.  If the defense knows that you're probably throwing the ball and they still can't stop you from completing passes down the field?  Yes, that shows Heinicke's arm strength is good enough to succeed in the NFL.

 

And, again, you all are too focused on arm strength.  Decision-making ability is a far more important success factor for NFL QBs.  Leading 5 game-winning drives in one season shows that Heinicke is very cool under pressure and that he makes very good decisions most of the time. 

 

You should not assume that most NFL QBs are as poised as Heinicke and that they handle end-of-game pressure as well as Heinicke does.  Because they do not.  

 

Brett Favre threw more INTs than any QB in history.  Perhaps his arm strength wasn't very good?

 

It's clear that you've completely barricaded yourself and are willing to die on this hill. I think that's a bit odd considering that...nobody agrees with you. Not us, not other analysts, not Heinicke's own coaches, or his own FO. They've made it almost as crystal clear as possible that Heinicke is not their guy going foward.

 

As far as completion percentage, if I move the ball down the field by dumping off to RBs in the flat and hitting other short passes, that doesn't mean I have a strong arm. It means I dinked and dunked, and those passes tend to have much higher completion percentages than deeper routes and longer developing plays.

 

I see you also decided to throw the OL under the bus in another post, despite the fact that even when dealing with injuries they were still ranked as a top 10 unit and ended the season as the 6th overall ranked OL by PFF.

 

As far as arm strength goes, is it the end-all-be-all? No. However, there's a minimum amount of arm strength that an NFL QB needs to be a decent starter, and Heinicke just doesn't have it. You can see it every time he lobs up a deep ball and it looks like a punt. You can also see it when he's trying to hit more difficult timing based route; the ball pretty routinely gets there late and he either has to be bailed out by his receiver (usually Terry) or he hangs the receiver out to dry for a huge hit (usually Terry as well).

 

The bottom line is that, despite what you think, the WFT coaches and FO have made it quite clear in a number of interviews and statements that they need an upgrade at the QB position, and not once has any of them even mentioned Heinicke.

 

He had some exciting moments, but he's a backup.

Edited January 18, 2022 by mistertim

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Im curious why there is no buzz about a trade market for Heineke, considering Ron made it very clear he’s looking elsewhere for answers at the position.

 

Is it possible that 31 other GMs, coaches and coordinators just can’t see the untapped potential that @Theismann to HOF is seeing? 

[Redskins 2021]

32 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I doubt the Raiders get rid of Carr, too.  But the cool thing is we are finally going to enter the world of we are about to find out about all of these things versus speculate.

 

The Stafford trade and Alex Smith one went down at the end of January.  Wonder if one happens this year?

I say 50/50 now. New GM and New coach leads to New players. With both gm and gruden gone they may want a fresh start.

 I hope they don't hold a gruge over getting Gruden fired.

[Ball Security]

5 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Game winning drives and completion percentage ABSOLUTELY correlate with arm strength.  If the defense knows that you're probably throwing the ball and they still can't stop you from completing passes down the field?  Yes, that shows Heinicke's arm strength is good enough to succeed in the NFL.

 

And, again, you all are too focused on arm strength.  Decision-making ability is a far more important success factor for NFL QBs.  Leading 5 game-winning drives in one season shows that Heinicke is very cool under pressure and that he makes very good decisions most of the time. 

 

You should not assume that most NFL QBs are as poised as Heinicke and that they handle end-of-game pressure as well as Heinicke does.  Because they do not.  

 

Brett Favre threw more INTs than any QB in history.  Perhaps his arm strength wasn't very good?

 

How about the defense that gave up 60% of 3rd down conversions during the first 7 games of the season?  The worst percentage in the NFL in 30 years.

 

The WFT defense was so bad at the beginning of the season that the team should have started 0 - 7.  The only reason the WFT was 2 - 5 is because Heinicke played outstanding against the Giants and Falcons.

Yes, the defense was very, very bad at the beginning of the season.  That has nothing to do when Carr played them.  So why bring that up?

 

You keep saying that without Heinicke, the team would have only won 3 or 4 games, but you act like another QB couldn’t score 18 points agains Denver or 25 points against GB or 21 against Dallas or 28 against Philly.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Im curious why there is no buzz about a trade market for Heineke, considering Ron made it very clear he’s looking elsewhere for answers at the position.

 

Is it possible that 31 other GMs, coaches and coordinators just can’t see the untapped potential that @Theismann to HOF is seeing? 

 

Maybe Rivera has accidently devalued him.  All this nonsense he's spouting about how they need a QB when the solution is right in house.  Probably other team GMs are thinking Rivera is crazy considering the Heinicke tape is out of this world so maybe either Rivera is losing his mind or there is something going on about Heinicke that they don't know about?

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/01/11/ron-rivera-franchise-quarterback-washington-football-team/

“If you’re going to make any kind of move [at quarterback], then you’ve got to make sure you understand what type of capital you’re going to have to use,” Rivera said. “If there’s somebody out there that we like enough to sit down and say, ‘Hey, look, we have to consider [giving up] these picks and that capital in terms of core players,’ we’ll have to talk about that.”...Washington is unlikely to find its quarterback in-house — Rivera did not mention Taylor Heinicke once during Tuesday’s news conference — or in free agency.