The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Tarpon75]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I will admit those damn opposing defenses were the main reason we lost 10 games.  If not for the 38 sacks and 15 interceptions against only 20 TD's Heineke gave them perhaps we lose less than 10 games.

Heineke gave up the sacks? Come on, I can buy some of the arguments about lack of arm strength et cetera but the guy did more to avoid sacks than any qb  that has been in Washington for years. His  escapability is exceptional.

[zCommander]

25 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

It's clear that you've completely barricaded yourself and are willing to die on this hill. I think that's a bit odd considering that...nobody agrees with you. Not us, not other analysts, not Heinicke's own coaches, or his own FO. They've made it almost as crystal clear as possible that Heinicke is not their guy going foward.

 

Actually not crystal clear:

 

Washington head coach Ron Rivera was asked by NBC Sports Washington's JP Finlay how he evaluates Heinicke, both in the short and long-term.

 

"He's kind of that 'senior rookie' to me," Rivera said. "The truth is that he's never really had some continuity in his career. [He's] been a practice squad guy, been a backup guy, got a start, got hurt, never really had a chance to bounce back. We bring him in last year and he has really good moments that give you confidence."

[mistertim]

9 minutes ago, Tarpon75 said:

Heineke gave up the sacks? Come on, I can buy some of the arguments about lack of arm strength et cetera but the guy did more to avoid sacks than any qb  that has been in Washington for years. His  escapability is exceptional.

 

There was info posted, I believe in this thread but I'm not 100% on that, which showed that Heinicke actually was at the top of the list of QBs most responsible for their own sacks. I can't find the link right now but I believe @Skinsinparadisehas provided it in the past.

 

5 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Actually not crystal clear:

 

Washington head coach Ron Rivera was asked by NBC Sports Washington's JP Finlay how he evaluates Heinicke, both in the short and long-term.

 

"He's kind of that 'senior rookie' to me," Rivera said. "The truth is that he's never really had some continuity in his career. [He's] been a practice squad guy, been a backup guy, got a start, got hurt, never really had a chance to bounce back. We bring him in last year and he has really good moments that give you confidence."

 

Ok so should we ignore the reams of leaks, statements and info that we've heard from the coaches and FO about the importance of the QB position and how they're basically desperate for an upgrade there...because Rivera gave a half-assed compliment when pushed on Heinicke.

 

I also find it telling that pretty much the only time Ron even mentions Heinicke it's when someone asks him a direct question about TH. Otherwise when he's talkeda about the QB position and how important it is, he never even says his name.

 

I wish you guys would stop deluding yourself into thinking that TH is even on the team's radar as far as being the starting QB this coimng season.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Actually not crystal clear:

 

Washington head coach Ron Rivera was asked by NBC Sports Washington's JP Finlay how he evaluates Heinicke, both in the short and long-term.

 

"He's kind of that 'senior rookie' to me," Rivera said. "The truth is that he's never really had some continuity in his career. [He's] been a practice squad guy, been a backup guy, got a start, got hurt, never really had a chance to bounce back. We bring him in last year and he has really good moments that give you confidence."

 

You need to provide a link to a quote if there is a link.  that quote is from November.  Here is the link.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/football-team/how-ron-rivera-evaluates-taylor-heinicke-qbs-unique-situation

 

But lets pretend Rivera said it yesterday.  When he is asked about any player even those that struggled, he tends to pump them up typically.  That's how he rolls.  He's a player coach that way.  but its not hard to read through the fluff.   When asked about Bostic for example, he says nice things.  But in other interviews he says they desperately need a MLB.  one thing doesn't contradict the other.  The complement to Bostic is coach speak.  Him saying he wants a Mike LB says everything we need to know.

 

Forgot the million times this off season Rivera has referenced them shopping for a QB.  If that's not enough how about him just last week laughing, literally laughing when Finlay goes I heard you need a QB, and Rivera goes that's an understatement dude and Rivera then keeps on laughing.  If that was some odd signal that he's conflicted about whether Heinicke is the guy than Rivera has a seriously devious psychopath streak. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

I got it. Top Ten Heinicke for Stafford straight up. Heinicke is better due to less picks thrown, so we’re gift wrapping the Rams a Super Bowl run here.

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You need to provide a link to a quote if there is a link.  that quote is from November.  Here is the link.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/washington/football-team/how-ron-rivera-evaluates-taylor-heinicke-qbs-unique-situation

 

But lets pretend Rivera said it yesterday.  When he is asked about any player even those that struggled, he tends to pump them up typically.  That's how he rolls.  He's a player coach that way.  but its not hard to read through the fluff.   When asked about Bostic for example, he says nice things.  But in other interviews he says they desperately need a MLB.  one thing doesn't contradict the other.  The complement to Bostic is coach speak.  Him saying he wants a Mike LB says everything we need to know.

 

Forgot the million times this off season Rivera has referenced them shopping for a QB.  If that's not enough how about him just last week laughing, literally laughing when Finlay goes I heard you need a QB, and Rivera goes that's an understatement dude and Rivera then keeps on laughing.  If that was some odd signal that he's conflicted about whether Heinicke is the guy than Rivera has a seriously devious psychopath streak. 

 

I never said Ron is not looking at all of his options. That would be pretty stupid for any coach not to do.  @mistertim said it was crytal clear. But it is not. I would love a quote from Ron that says, nope, TH won't be the starter next year. Then that would be crystal clear. Until Ron announces who is the starter next year it is not crystal clear at all. I am sure you can read between the lines but again not crystal clear. If you are going to say crystal clear then it has to be really crystal clear. 

 

You want recent. Then here you go. From Jan. 7.  Also not crystal clear though. 

 

Scott Turner on Taylor Heinicke going forward:  
"I think Taylor's definitely going to be a factor. I think that it's been a up and down year. I think there's been some games where it's been good, and then there's some games that it hasn't been as good. I think you can say that for our entire offense. I've talked about this before, the quarterback gets the majority of the credit when it goes good and he gets the majority of the blame and probably neither one of them are fair. It's the most important position in the sport and we aim to be as good as possible there. Whoever, if we do bring a guy in, if that happens and however that happens, Taylor's gonna be here. I know what his makeup is. I know he's gonna be ready to compete and he isn't gonna give anybody anything. We're gonna evaluate everything after this game. We're gonna try to get it as good as we can at every position, but especially at that position."

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

9 minutes ago, Tarpon75 said:

Heineke gave up the sacks? Come on, I can buy some of the arguments about lack of arm strength et cetera but the guy did more to avoid sacks than any qb  that has been in Washington for years. His  escapability is exceptional.

At times, absolutely.  He holds the ball too long, squirts out of sacks and turns a negative play into a positive play.  That’s peak Heineke.

 

Other times, he holds the ball too long and cannot escape.  
 

He absolutely has the ability to make some exciting runs off schedule, but let’s not pretend he doesn’t generally hold the ball too long and that his exciting plays outweigh the bad ones.

 

 

[Theismann to HOF]

39 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

Yes, the defense was very, very bad at the beginning of the season.  That has nothing to do when Carr played them.  So why bring that up?

 

You keep saying that without Heinicke, the team would have only won 3 or 4 games, but you act like another QB couldn’t score 18 points agains Denver or 25 points against GB or 21 against Dallas or 28 against Philly.

 

I bring it up because the WFT gave up 35 points in ONE HALF against Dallas recently, a few weeks after the Raiders game.  Oh yeah....they also gave up over 200 yards rushing to the Eagles recently.  The WFT defense was bad almost every game this season. 

 

During the 4 game-winning streak when the WFT offense was controlling the ball 40 minutes per game, that helped the WFT defense A LOT because they weren't on the field very much.  THAT is why the WFT defense didn't give up a lot of points during the 4 game winning streak.

 

Against Denver and Green Bay, the WFT offense only punted the ball ONE TIME.  Heinicke and the offense played very well in those two games, they just didn't score many points.  It happens.  Don't forget that the WFT had 2 blocked FGs against Denver.  If it wasn't for that, they probably win that game.  And Heinicke was robbed of a TD against Green Bay, as well.  Plus, McLaurin dropped a TD pass against Green Bay.  

 

[Skinsinparadise]

34 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

There was info posted, I believe in this thread but I'm not 100% on that, which showed that Heinicke actually was at the top of the list of QBs most responsible for their own sacks. I can't find the link right now but I believe @Skinsinparadisehas provided it in the past.

 

I can't find it, just looked but if I recall he wasn't the worst.  But around top 10 as for sacks that some anayltics outfit assigned him as for being responsible for. 

 

I do agree that many mobile QBs can get sacked more of their own doing because they are trying to make plays.  but in general Taylor got good protection.

 

There was only one team in the top 8 in pass protection according to a number of outfits who didn't make the playoffs.  That would be us. 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Redskins 2021]

Las vegas oc fired looks like a new coach.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

Heinicke and the offense played very well in those two games, they just didn't score many points.  It happens

Yeah, a lot.

 

Hence why we are in the market for a QB.

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

I bring it up because the WFT gave up 35 points in ONE HALF against Dallas recently, a few weeks after the Raiders game.  Oh yeah....they also gave up over 200 yards rushing to the Eagles recently.  The WFT defense was bad almost every game this season. 

 

 

The defense got taken to the woodshed by Dallas. But what does thave have to do with Heinicke? In that game he had a 31.8 completion percentage with 1 TD and 2 INTs. So TH played like crap as wel. The whole team did.

 

But I'm sure that's on the OL. Or the receivers. Or the running game. Or the coaches. Or the cheerleaders. Who knows...whatever the case, we know that the merry go round of blame and excuse making just keeps on chugging away when it comes to Heinicke.

[Theismann to HOF]

1 hour ago, kingdaddy said:

I'm with you....I think Taylor gets more respect across the league and within his own team then he gets on this site. Bottom line is that we are beyond starving for our own Joe Burrow and that's totally understandable but they are just so hard to get. What's worse, not being able to find that guy or constantly drafting QB's in the top 5 or even multiple times with the #1 overall pick and striking out like Cleveland has done. Denver can't find one and they've drafted QB's high. 

Taylor Heinicke was one of our best players this year and without him who knows how bad we would've been. He needs help from the other units to be his best. You don't just beat Tom Brady and Russell Wilson by accident or luck. He beat them because he was solid and the rest of the team supported him with solid play....especially the defense. Going into Vegas and beating them is also no easy task. Lets see if Taylor can build on this season with more support from his teammates and an easier schedule.....If we don't find an upgrade.

 

Heinicke's teammates absolutely love him.  They know that he is going to fight to the bitter end.  This guy is a winner and he proved that repeatedly in close games.  It will be demoralizing to the locker room if Rivera replaces him.

 

I totally agree with you, Heinicke was one of the few bright spots on the team this year.  

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

The defense got taken to the woodshed by Dallas. But what does thave have to do with Heinicke? In that game he had a 31.8 completion percentage with 1 TD and 2 INTs. So TH played like crap as wel. The whole team did.

 

But I'm sure that's on the OL. Or the receivers. Or the running game. Or the coaches. Or the cheerleaders. Who knows...whatever the case, we know that the merry go round of blame and excuse making just keeps on chugging away when it comes to Heinicke.

 

If Tom Brady played behind that depleted WFT offensive line against Dallas, his 44-year-old butt with zero mobility would have left the game on a freaking stretcher.  Maybe an ambulance.

 

Do you realize that the WFT was on their 4th string center at the end of the season?  The WFT offensive line had no business being on the same field as the Dallas defensive line in both games.  Heinicke was constantly running for his life out there.

[zCommander]

13 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

At times, absolutely.  He holds the ball too long, squirts out of sacks and turns a negative play into a positive play.  That’s peak Heineke.

 

Other times, he holds the ball too long and cannot escape.  
 

He absolutely has the ability to make some exciting runs off schedule, but let’s not pretend he doesn’t generally hold the ball too long and that his exciting plays outweigh the bad ones.

 

 

 

Here are you most sacked QBs. Damn, Joe Burrow must hold on to the ball longer than anyone else. 

 

Joe Burrow
51

Ryan Tannehill
47

Zach Wilson
44

Baker Mayfield
43

Matt Ryan
40

Derek Carr
40

Ben Roethlisberger
38

Lamar Jackson
38

Taylor Heinicke
38

Justin Fields
36

Jared Goff
35

Sam Darnold
35

Russell Wilson
33

[Ball Security]

22 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

I bring it up because the WFT gave up 35 points in ONE HALF against Dallas recently, a few weeks after the Raiders game.  Oh yeah....they also gave up over 200 yards rushing to the Eagles recently.  The WFT defense was bad almost every game this season. 

 

During the 4 game-winning streak when the WFT offense was controlling the ball 40 minutes per game, that helped the WFT defense A LOT because they weren't on the field very much.  THAT is why the WFT defense didn't give up a lot of points during the 4 game winning streak.

 

Against Denver and Green Bay, the WFT offense only punted the ball ONE TIME.  Heinicke and the offense played very well in those two games, they just didn't score many points.  It happens.  Don't forget that the WFT had 2 blocked FGs against Denver.  If it wasn't for that, they probably win that game.  And Heinicke was robbed of a TD against Green Bay, as well.  Plus, McLaurin dropped a TD pass against Green Bay.  

 

Yeah, I guess not punting in the Green Bay game is a feather in Heinicke’s cap as he only had two turnovers and went 0-3 on fourth downs (none longer than three yards to gain) and put up 10 points.

 

Garrett Gilbert walked into the organization and put up more points in the COVID game than Heinicke put up in his last 6 starts.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Ball Security

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Heinicke's teammates absolutely love him.  They know that he is going to fight to the bitter end.  This guy is a winner and he proved that repeatedly in close games.  It will be demoralizing to the locker room if Rivera replaces him.

 

I totally agree with you, Heinicke was one of the few bright spots on the team this year.  

 

I think having a mediocre to poor QB is probably pretty demoralizing to players as well...especially receivers. 

 

There's no actual evidence that an upgrade at QB would somehow be "demoralizing". Losing is demoralizing. Barely being able to rack up 20 points on offense is demoralizing. Do the players like Heinicke? Certainly seems so. Does that mean they'll all spiral down into a deep depression if we bring in an upgrade? Nope. They'll probably be jazzed about finally finding a legit QB, which will hopefully lead to more wins.

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

I never said Ron is not looking at all of his options. That would be pretty stupid for any coach not to do.  @mistertim said it was crytal clear. But it is not. I would love a quote from Ron that says, nope, TH won't be the starter next year. Then that would be crystal clear. Until Ron announces who is the starter next year it is not crystal clear at all. I am sure you can read between the lines but again not crystal clear. If you are going to say crystal clear then it has to be really crystal clear. 

 

You want recent. Then here you go. From Jan. 7.  Also not crystal clear though. 

 

Scott Turner on Taylor Heinicke going forward:  
"I think Taylor's definitely going to be a factor. I think that it's been a up and down year. I think there's been some games where it's been good, and then there's some games that it hasn't been as good. I think you can say that for our entire offense. I've talked about this before, the quarterback gets the majority of the credit when it goes good and he gets the majority of the blame and probably neither one of them are fair. It's the most important position in the sport and we aim to be as good as possible there. Whoever, if we do bring a guy in, if that happens and however that happens, Taylor's gonna be here. I know what his makeup is. I know he's gonna be ready to compete and he isn't gonna give anybody anything. We're gonna evaluate everything after this game. We're gonna try to get it as good as we can at every position, but especially at that position."

 

For one Scott Turner doesn't run the FO, Rivera does.   2nd heck yeah Heinicke is going to be here.  Who is arguing otherwise?  His stuff here though is pure coach speak and if anything damning if the idea is Heinicke is seen as the #1 Qb here.  When you got the guy in house, you go heck yeah Taylor is our guy.  You don't say we're gonna try to get as good as we can at every position but especially at that position.   You think that's what the Cardinals are saying, this type of stuff, in the off season about the QB spot -- talking about if we bring a guy in and we are going to try to get good there, etc.   

 

That's simply a nice way of saying we are bringing a guy in and we are trying to get better.  I don't know what some are expecting the coaches to say about a player in house.  Something like that dude sucks?  We will go through hell and highwater to replace him?  I don't think even a blunt tactless dude like Mike Ditka talked like that about his players. 

 

But look its clear some want to believe that Rivera thinks Heinicke is the guy or at least is torn about it.   It's cool.   It's a long off season and what the heck, we can all believe in whatever to get us through it.  If some people feel good believing it -- that's cool.  On a scale of 0-100.  The level I believe Rivera thinks Heinicke is the guy is dead zero.  Nada.  Zip.   

 

if Rivera opens up his press conference before FA and goes gotcha or whatever he does to indicate he loved Heinicke all along as the dude and he sees him as his next Cam or whichever way he sells him as the franchise QB.  i promise to be the first to come back to the thread and own up as to how wrong I was. 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

If Tom Brady played behind that depleted WFT offensive line against Dallas, his 44-year-old butt with zero mobility would have left the game on a freaking stretcher.  Maybe an ambulance.

 

Do you realize that the WFT was on their 4th string center at the end of the season?  The WFT offensive line had no business being on the same field as the Dallas defensive line in both games.  Heinicke was constantly running for his life out there.

 

I doubt Tom Brady would be all that upset about playing behind the 5th ranked pass pro OL in the league. Even when our OL had injuries they were still highly rated. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by mistertim

[bh32]

What is the obsession with Heinicke? He dosen't have the arm to make all the throws and that limits what the Offense can do..Why do you think the more games he played the worse he got? Teams knew he couldn't make certain throws and just sat on everything underneath..He is a backup that can come in for  a couple quarters or one game at the most..

Edited January 18, 2022 by bh32

[Skinsinparadise]

30 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I got it. Top Ten Heinicke for Stafford straight up. Heinicke is better due to less picks thrown, so we’re gift wrapping the Rams a Super Bowl run here.

 

No way I am doing that straight up.  Among other things it would be demoralizing to the team to trade Taylor.  But if pressed.  Maybe I'd do it if they threw Aaron Donald in the deal?  Keep in mind we are going to lose Settle.  We need d line depth. 

[Theismann to HOF]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

It's clear that you've completely barricaded yourself and are willing to die on this hill. I think that's a bit odd considering that...nobody agrees with you. Not us, not other analysts, not Heinicke's own coaches, or his own FO. They've made it almost as crystal clear as possible that Heinicke is not their guy going foward.

 

As far as completion percentage, if I move the ball down the field by dumping off to RBs in the flat and hitting other short passes, that doesn't mean I have a strong arm. It means I dinked and dunked, and those passes tend to have much higher completion percentages than deeper routes and longer developing plays.

 

I see you also decided to throw the OL under the bus in another post, despite the fact that even when dealing with injuries they were still ranked as a top 10 unit and ended the season as the 6th overall ranked OL by PFF.

 

As far as arm strength goes, is it the end-all-be-all? No. However, there's a minimum amount of arm strength that an NFL QB needs to be a decent starter, and Heinicke just doesn't have it. You can see it every time he lobs up a deep ball and it looks like a punt. You can also see it when he's trying to hit more difficult timing based route; the ball pretty routinely gets there late and he either has to be bailed out by his receiver (usually Terry) or he hangs the receiver out to dry for a huge hit (usually Terry as well).

 

The bottom line is that, despite what you think, the WFT coaches and FO have made it quite clear in a number of interviews and statements that they need an upgrade at the QB position, and not once has any of them even mentioned Heinicke.

 

He had some exciting moments, but he's a backup.

 

Scott Turner agrees with me.  So does Tony Dungy.  kingdaddy also agrees with me.

 

It's obvious that you all just want to dogpile on the poor guy and blame him for everything.  This team would have been even worse without Heinicke and his 5 game-winning drives.

[kingdaddy]

If your the head coach, OC and GM how do you grade TH based on his play and how the team did this season? When the defense finally stepped up and the running game started clicking he was very good and we won some games against tough teams with QB's who have better resume's than he does. When COVID hit and injuries added up he struggled but still competed. He basically had one star WR, lost his 3rd down back and had vanilla for TE's. 

I'm grading him based on his leadership, how he did when he had a mostly full deck to work with and whether I think he can get better and help us win. One play that really stands out as hurting was the overturned TD in Green Bay where he slid too early. If he scores there who knows what happens but we played Green Bay tough in their stadium. Next season we won't play a murderers row of star QB's....bottom line, TH beat Brady, Carr and Russ Wilson when the team was clicking. That tells me we can win with him. I'm also LOVING his salary and looking at adding big time all around him and seeing what happens. 

[Theismann to HOF]

9 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I think having a mediocre to poor QB is probably pretty demoralizing to players as well...especially receivers. 

 

There's no actual evidence that an upgrade at QB would somehow be "demoralizing". Losing is demoralizing. Barely being able to rack up 20 points on offense is demoralizing. Do the players like Heinicke? Certainly seems so. Does that mean they'll all spiral down into a deep depression if we bring in an upgrade? Nope. They'll probably be jazzed about finally finding a legit QB, which will hopefully lead to more wins.

 

Except you can't guarantee an upgrade.  You probably wanted to bring Matthew Stafford here last year.  His sorry butt has thrown four Pick 6 INTs this season.  Aaron Rodgers has thrown three Pick 6 INTs during his ENTIRE CAREER.

 

I would take Heinicke over Stafford 8 days per week.

Edited January 18, 2022 by Theismann to HOF

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

14 minutes ago, zskins said:

 

Here are you most sacked QBs. Damn, Joe Burrow must hold on to the ball longer than anyone else. 

Burrow does hold on to the ball for a while as he’s looking to make a play upfield, and does regularly, hence why he’s a much better player than Heineke despite this stat.