The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[London Kev]

16 minutes ago, ExoDus84 said:

 

If you watch its film, Chopped Liver actually has better pocket presence than RG3 did.

 

It definitely slides better as well.

[Voice_of_Reason]

59 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

For those who don't believe Heinicke is the long term answer, or even short term answer, I get it. But saying Jimmy G. is miles ahead of TH as a starting QB I don't agree with.

Then you would be wrong.  
 

And that's about all there is to say about that.

[Zim489]

4 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

Trask would be no where near a top 5 prospect.

Trask has zero tools.

 

Also not sure about his strong take. You clearly see in tape that he has the best arm talent in the draft and I dont even know if its arguable. Unfortunately his knee might be shredded. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Zim489

[Theismann to HOF]

On 10/20/2021 at 11:37 AM, Koolblue13 said:

We kind of have QB talk in every thread and it gets jumbled up and annoying. It's obviously the biggest missing piece on this team. 

 

How would you address the position moving forward. This year and next and down the road?

 

I'm a Heinicke fan.  I would like to see him remain the starter for at least one more season.  No one plays their best football during their first season as a starter.  However, he showed enough potential to deserve another season as the starter.

 

He had 5 game-winning drives and played outstanding in several games this season, particularly against the Giants, Falcons, Bucs, and Panthers.   He has good instincts and a natural feel in the pocket.  He is also an extremely good athlete. 

 

I think the WFT can be successful with Heinicke as QB if they clean up their disastrous defense.  The defense is the main reason they lost 10 games.

[Zim489]

My Rankings of QBs since Ron's been here as prospects: 

 

1. TL
2. Tua (Pre injuries)
3. Burrow 
4. Lance
5. Fields
6. Wilson
7. Tua (Drafted Version)
8. Herbert
9. Willis
10. Love
11. Corral
12. Pickett 
13. Howell
14. Mac

[Theismann to HOF]

24 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Then you would be wrong.  
 

And that's about all there is to say about that.

 

Jimmy G almost cost the 49ers the game last night with that disastrous INT he threw in the 4th quarter, which gave Dallas new life.  Jimmy G's decision-making and throws are very questionable at times.

 

Personally, I'm taking Heinicke over Jimmy G.  Heinicke is currently the best QB bargain in the league.  The WFT would probably have to pay Jimmy G at least $20M per year and he is not worth it in my opinion.

[Zim489]

4 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

I'm a Heinicke fan.  I would like to see him remain the starter for at least one more season.  No one plays their best football during their first season as a starter.  However, he showed enough potential to deserve another season as the starter.

 

He had 5 game-winning drives and played outstanding in several games this season, particularly against the Giants, Falcons, Bucs, and Panthers.   He has good instincts and a natural feel in the pocket.  He is also an extremely good athlete. 

 

I think the WFT can be successful with Heinicke as QB if they clean up their disastrous defense.  The defense is the main reason they lost 10 games.

Theres no possible way anyone could logically think that Taylor is anything but a fringe backup. He physically can not play the position to the level you need to be an elite team. We care about championships. If you look at the playoffs its going to be 6/7 games won by the better QB this first round. 

[Theismann to HOF]

7 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Theres no possible way anyone could logically think that Taylor is anything but a fringe backup. He physically can not play the position to the level you need to be an elite team. We care about championships. If you look at the playoffs its going to be 6/7 games won by the better QB this first round. 

 

He led 5 game-winning drives in the 4th quarter.  Completed 65% of his passes.  That sounds pretty elite to me.  This team easily could have finished 3 - 14 or 4 - 13 without Heinicke's excellent play in several games this season.

 

Plus, this was only his first season as a starter.  It's foolish to already make a final decision about Heinicke's long-term prospects.  I think he will continue to get better.

[Zim489]

2 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

He led 5 game-winning drives in the 4th quarter.  Completed 65% of his passes.  That sounds pretty elite to me.  This team easily could have finished 3 - 14 or 4 - 13 without Heinicke's excellent play in several games this season.

 

Plus, this was only his first season as a starter.  It's foolish to already make a final decision about Heinicke's long-term prospects.  I think he will continue to get better.

hes graded out as one of the worst starters in the league over the course of the entire year. Theres a reason everyone is talking about QB. Taylor isnt a rookie. Hes not going to mature into his body. Theres really nothing for him to improve on. His phsycial limitations hold back everything about the offense. Teams stack the box. They can press zone. He cant throw over the short middle of the field. He cant throw past 10 yards on the hashes. He cuts entire passing route combos out because he cant get ball to targets. 

[London Kev]

4 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

He led 5 game-winning drives in the 4th quarter.  Completed 65% of his passes.  That sounds pretty elite to me.  This team easily could have finished 3 - 14 or 4 - 13 without Heinicke's excellent play in several games this season.

 

Plus, this was only his first season as a starter.  It's foolish to already make a final decision about Heinicke's long-term prospects.  I think he will continue to get better.

 

We don't have to make a final decision on him because he's signed for next season. If he continues to get better then that's great, let him fight for the starter position with a vet and a rookie in camp and see where he ends up. Personally I think he'll be the 2nd/3rd string option. 

[Rufus T Firefly]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

1. The Trent Williams illegal-shift penalty was 100% on Jimmy G. He signaled for Trent to switch sides, then didn't wait for him to get set before snapping the ball.  WHY they motioned Trent, I don't know, and I don't care.  They did.  An NFL team should be able to pull that off without getting a penalty 10,000 times out of 10,000, especially with the clocked stopped coming out of a TO.  It's not like trying to execute some flea-flicker to hook-and-ladder play.  Guy stands up, runs to the other side of the line, sets, wait 1 second, snap the ball.  Jimmy didn't wait.  That's on him.

I replied to this in the game thread last night, but I'll mention it again- The reason they did that seemed clear to me. They shifted to give the impression they were sneaking to the right and to get the Cowboys moving the other way. So the idea that he should have waited plenty of time after Williams got set is somewhat erroneous. They clearly designed that play to have it be snapped quickly to get the D off balance. Waiting too long would have defeated the purpose. 

 

So yeah, it was Jimmy G's mistake. But the mistake was not waiting like an extra quarter second or so. He was supposed to do it quickly just did it a hair too quickly. It's hardly a disqualifying "choke" or something. 

 

The INT was a terrible throw. Just horrendous. But the decision wasn't bad. He had an open receiver and a 1st down there would have the game getting close to dagger territory. He just doesn't throw well on the move and it showed there. It was as bad a throw as you'll see in the NFL.

[Theismann to HOF]

16 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

hes graded out as one of the worst starters in the league over the course of the entire year. Theres a reason everyone is talking about QB. Taylor isnt a rookie. Hes not going to mature into his body. Theres really nothing for him to improve on. His phsycial limitations hold back everything about the offense. Teams stack the box. They can press zone. He cant throw over the short middle of the field. He cant throw past 10 yards on the hashes. He cuts entire passing route combos out because he cant get ball to targets. 

 

Graded by who?  I don't buy it.  Stats don't tell the whole story.  At the end of the day, this game is about wins and losses and Heinicke won 5 very close games this season in tense, end-of-game situations.  I heard Tony Dungy say that he "loves" Heinicke during the Sunday night game against Dallas.  And he is a real expert, not one of these online "experts".

 

I don't believe most starting QBs in this league would have led the WFT to a 7 - 10 record.  Most starting QBs would have finished 3 - 14 or 4 -13 on this team.  The defense was absolutely horrible most of the season, the worst WFT defense since the 1960s.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Theismann to HOF

[Conn]

1 hour ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

Just wondering if there is something TH/Skins can do in the off season to get some strength in his arm? I think TH would be willing to work but what conditioning drills are there to improve in that area....OR...is he pretty much locked in physically where he is.

He can max out what he has but what he has will never be enough. He’s just a small, weak guy for a pro QB despite his guts. And his guts don’t include football smarts that lead him to make throws within his skillset so it’s not even like he plays mistake-free football to go along with his lack of physical tools. He makes dumb throws he’s not physically capable of all the time, but bc he got lucky and bailed out a few times in a way that seemed purposeful and repeatable people get stuck on those throws. You can’t build an offense around those moments where it all clicks despite the limitations. He was getting guys killed out there even when they came through for him downfield. 

 

Back to the arm strength—I read an interesting study from a year or two ago saying that for every extra inch of arm length a QB has, they can rip it an extra 2+ MPH. This is in addition to whatever innately effects someone’s arm strength, some dudes just have a cannon that can be optimized with great mechanics, some dudes don’t need to worry as much about footwork and mechanics to throw ropes. But the important thing is that when you’re projecting whether a guy’s arm is “maxed out” or not (and typically by the time they complete their college career it’s close, minus some mechanical optimization like Rodgers went through his first couple years on the bench), long arms and big hands help. They just do, it’s physics. 
 

In short, even if he could technically maximize the tools he’s got, Heinicke is never going to have enough of an arm. And the rest of his skillset doesn’t offset that at all. He was a fun story, people need to let him go. He makes a good emergency 3rd QB. I don’t even want his limitations in a direct backup situation going forward, personally. And honestly I’m not even sure I want a guy like him that some of the fanbase don’t have a healthy/realistic understanding of as a guy on the roster if we have a developing rookie. Some fans will just never let go of the 2-3 magical games Heinicke had, like a minority of Minshew Mania fans in Jacksonville before they traded him. Once these guys’ limitations are exposed it doesn’t matter how fun or gritty they were. Smile fondly when remembering the cool moments and story they had and move on. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by ConnSKINS26

[Theismann to HOF]

9 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

He can max out what he has but what he has will never be enough. He’s just a small, weak guy for a pro QB despite his guts. And his guts don’t include football smarts that lead him to make throws within his skillset so it’s not even like he plays mistake-free football to go along with his lack of physical tools.

 

Back to the arm strength—I read an interesting study from a year or two ago saying that for every extra inch of arm length a QB has, they can rip it an extra 2+ MPH. This is in addition to whatever innately effects someone’s arm strength, some dudes just have a cannon that can be optimized with great mechanics, some dudes don’t need to worry as much about football and mechanics to throw ropes. But the important thing is that when you’re projecting whether a guy’s arm is “maxed out” or not (and typically by the time they compete their college career it’s close, minus some mechanical optimization like Rodgers went through his first couple years on the bench), long arms and big hands help. They just do, it’s physics. 
 

In short, even if he could technically maximize the tools he’s got, Heinicke is never going to have enough of an arm. And the rest of his skillset doesn’t offset that at all. He was a fun story, people need to let him go. He makes a good emergency 3rd QB. I don’t even want his limitations in a direct backup situation going forward, personally. And honestly I’m not even sure I want a guy like him that some of the fanbase don’t have a healthy/realistic understanding of as a guy on the roster if we have a developing rookie. Some fans will just never let go of the 2-3 magical games Heinicke had, like a minority of Minshew Mania fans in Jacksonville before they traded him. Once these guys’ limitations are exposed it doesn’t matter how fun or gritty they were. Smile fondly when remembering the cool moments and story they had and move on. 

 

Personally, I don't think Heinicke's arm is a weakness.  If it was, he wouldn't have completed 65% of his passes and I don't think he would have led 5 game-winning drives in must-pass situations.  Plus, Heinicke made several long outstanding throws this season, like the 50 yard TD pass to Sims against Dallas.

 

Decision-making is a far more important quality for an NFL QB.  And Heinicke's decision-making is very good most of the time.  Much better than several star QBs in this league, such as Matthew Stafford.  Stafford threw FOUR Pick 6 INTs this season.  I'm glad the WFT didn't sign him last offseason. 

 

However, I bet many people on this forum did want Stafford last season.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Theismann to HOF

[Conn]

17 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Graded by who?  I don't buy it.  Stats don't tell the whole story.  At the end of the day, this game is about wins and losses and Heinicke won 5 very close games this season in tense, end-of-game situations.  I heard Tony Dungy say that he "loves" Heinicke during the Sunday night game against Dallas.  And he is a real expert, not one of these online "experts".

 

I don't believe most starting QBs in this league would have led the WFT to a 7 - 10 record.  Most starting QBs would have finished 3 - 14 or 4 -13 on this team.  The defense was absolutely horrible most of the season, the worst WFT defense since the 1960s.

Youre looking at it backwards. Those 5 very close games that you attribute to Heinicke could easily have been losses because he just isn’t a guy who can consistently carry a team. We were closer to a 2-3 win season than we were to a truly competitive but still mediocre wildcard type season. Yes, he came through in those instances and it was fun. I don’t hate the guy. But we were not a better offense because of his limitations, requiring unsustainable last minute heroics that became less repeatable as the season went on. He is not good. He threw an insane number of interceptable passes that he lucked out on. In between the magical receptions where it all came together and he squeezed it just right bc he doesn’t have the awareness not to risk certain throws were like fifty murderballs that almost got our guys killed on the other end. Hospital balls. Whatever you want to call them. Repeat after me. He was a fun story. A success story given his lack of pedigree and current bank account, and some positive memories he made in two dark seasons for fans. But that’s it. He belongs in this league in some capacity but is not good enough to start and there are serious questions about whether he should be trusted to be the direct backup. 

6 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Personally, I don't think Heinicke's arm is a weakness.  If it was, he wouldn't have completed 65% of his passes and I don't think he would have led 5 game-winning drives in must-pass situations.  Plus, Heinicke made several long outstanding throws this season, like the 50 yard TD pass to Sims against Dallas.

 

Decision-making is a far more important quality for an NFL QB.  And Heinicke's decision-making is much better than several star QBs in this league, such as Matthew Stafford.  Stafford threw FOUR Pick 6 INTs this season.  I'm glad the WFT didn't sign him last offseason. 

 

However, I bet many people on this forum did want Stafford last season.

This post is enough to let me know not to continue engaging, thank you. Agree to disagree at a decidedly thorough level. Wow are we living in different realities, because between some fun plays he had no business making (and I mean that in a fun, positive way believe it or not) Heinicke’s arm and decision making in using that arm are bottom 25% (being generous) across the entire league and probably his worst attributes. 
 

I would not like to continue debating you on this because it will go nowhere given how far apart we are but as a parting gift in the conversation I WOULD love to hear what exactly you think Heinicke’s weaknesses actually are if you don’t think his arm and decision-making count as weaknesses. Why isn’t he a better player who produces better if those aspects of his skillset aren’t a problem? I’ll hang up and listen. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by ConnSKINS26

[Theismann to HOF]

7 minutes ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

Youre looking at it backwards. Those 5 very close games that you attribute to Heinicke could easily have been losses because he just isn’t a guy who can consistently carry a team. We were closer to a 2-3 win season than we were to a truly competitive but still mediocre wildcard type season. He is not good. He threw an insane number of interceptable passes that he lucked out on. In between the magical receptions where it all came together and he squeezed it just right bc he doesn’t have the awareness not to risk certain throws were like fifty murderballs that almost got our guys killed on the other end. Hospital balls. Whatever you want to call them. Repeat after me. He was a fun story. A success story given his lack of pedigree and current bank account, and some positive memories he made in two dark seasons for fans. But that’s it. He belongs in this league in some capacity but is not good enough to start and there are serious questions about whether he should be trusted to be the direct backup. 

 

I obviously disagree.  The WFT should have started the season 0 - 7, because the WFT defense was historically bad during the first 7 games.  The only reason the WFT started off 2 - 5 is because Heinicke played outstanding against both the Giants and Falcons.  And he played even better later in the season against the Bucs and Panthers.  Heinicke played near-perfect games against the Bucs and Panthers and the WFT still barely won both games.

 

During the first 7 games, the WFT defense gave up 60% of 3rd down conversions to their opponents.  That is historically bad, the worst percentage in the NFL in 30 years.  Again, Henicke deserves all of the credit for those two wins against the Giants and Falcons.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Theismann to HOF

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

52 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

I think the WFT can be successful with Heinicke as QB if they clean up their disastrous defense.  The defense is the main reason they lost 10 games.

I will admit those damn opposing defenses were the main reason we lost 10 games.  If not for the 38 sacks and 15 interceptions against only 20 TD's Heineke gave them perhaps we lose less than 10 games.

[Zim489]

24 minutes ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

Graded by who?  I don't buy it.  Stats don't tell the whole story.  At the end of the day, this game is about wins and losses and Heinicke won 5 very close games this season in tense, end-of-game situations.  I heard Tony Dungy say that he "loves" Heinicke during the Sunday night game against Dallas.  And he is a real expert, not one of these online "experts".

 

I don't believe most starting QBs in this league would have led the WFT to a 7 - 10 record.  Most starting QBs would have finished 3 - 14 or 4 -13 on this team.  The defense was absolutely horrible most of the season, the worst WFT defense since the 1960s.

It wasn’t even the worst defense of the past half decade 

[Theismann to HOF]

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I will admit those damn opposing defenses were the main reason we lost 10 games.  If not for the 38 sacks and 15 interceptions against only 20 TD's Heineke gave them perhaps we lose less than 10 games.

 

If you say so.  As I just posted, the WFT defense gave up 60% of 3rd down conversions to opponents during the first 7 games of the season.  That is historically bad, the worst percentage in the NFL in 30 years.

 

And maybe you have a short-term memory, but Dallas put up 35 points in ONE HALF against the WFT defense a few weeks ago.

1 minute ago, Zim489 said:

It wasn’t even the worst defense of the past half decade 

 

I've been watching the WFT for 40 years.  This was easily one of the 2 or 3 worst defenses this team has had in the past 40 years.  Personally, I think it was the worst.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Heineke Truther 101:

 

• Talk ad nauseum about the defense and how it was the worst defense ever in the history of the NFL that directly caused the team to lose the majority of the games.
• Move on from the defense to the 'no weapons' argument.
• Do not, and I repeat DO NOT, ever admit that Heineke holds the ball too long, can't threaten several parts of the field with his arm, sends his receivers to the tent with regularity and makes throws he should never even think about making on the reg.

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, Theismann to HOF said:

 

I'm a Heinicke fan.  I would like to see him remain the starter for at least one more season.  No one plays their best football during their first season as a starter.  However, he showed enough potential to deserve another season as the starter.

 

He had 5 game-winning drives and played outstanding in several games this season, particularly against the Giants, Falcons, Bucs, and Panthers.   He has good instincts and a natural feel in the pocket.  He is also an extremely good athlete. 

 

I think the WFT can be successful with Heinicke as QB if they clean up their disastrous defense.  The defense is the main reason they lost 10 games.

 

You do realize that it's clear the WFT coaches and FO completely disagree with you, right? They obviously don't see Heinicke as a legit starter in the NFL. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

You do realize that it's clear the WFT coaches and FO completely disagree with you, right? They obviously don't see Heinicke as a legit starter in the NFL. 

That's another thing.

 

Ron can't possibly be more transparent that this team needs a legit QB in all his appearances.  If Heineke is so good, is he just a complete and utter idiot as to not see his greatness?  While we're at it, let's just dump Scott Turner for not maximizing Heineke.  I'm sure there is a long, long list of hotshot OC's salivating about the opportunity to both develop and create successful gameplans for Taylor Heineke.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

This guy's take on where Wilson could go cracks me up lol...

 

 

 

[Zim489]

I would love to hear who he thinks has a weaker arm. The only 2 that can come is 35 year old Colt McCoy(another small QB) and 39 year old Big Ben who probably the most hit QB in nfl history 

[Theismann to HOF]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

You do realize that it's clear the WFT coaches and FO completely disagree with you, right? They obviously don't see Heinicke as a legit starter in the NFL. 

 

I read the Washington Post sports section on a daily basis.  I haven't read this anywhere.  There is a very good chance Heinicke will be the starter next year.

 

Heinicke has a significant advantage over free-agent QBs because he is very familiar with Scott Turner's offense.  Heinicke will out-perform virtually any free-agent QB during next pre-season, because of his familiarity with the offense.  Any new free agent QB will struggle during their first season with the WFT, until they learn Turner's offense.  Just like Tom Brady struggled the first half of last season with Tampa Bay, until he got more familiar with the offense.

 

Scott Turner and Rivera both have a lot of trust in Heinicke, that's why he was brought to Washington as the Covid back-up QB a year ago.  No free agent QB is just going to walk in here and outperform Heinicke.