The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

10 hours ago, tshile said:

Any given year, there’s a handful of OCs that get a chance. Yet he’s never gotten one. 
 

that’s the point. It’s understood the jobs are different. 

 

Yeah there are a handful of OCs that get a chance to be HC, indeed.

 

But this is a OC moving to be an OC with more authority.

 

Apples to oranges.

 

I like Sheehan as much as anyone but he's not always right.  And in this case IMO he's being negative to be negative. 

 

10 hours ago, KDawg said:

I really appreciate the springboard. Thank you.

 

 

Two North Carolina QBs. Very similar stat lines. 
 

One who a sure fire first rounder after his sophomore year and wound up getting drafted in the fifth.

 

So we’ll see.

 

But Howell was drafted in the 5th round?  That alone is the kiss of death.   How can he succeed?  Now if this team drafted him in the 2nd or maybe even 3rd as they originally intended I'd feel a lot better.  Imagine going into the off season if Howell was drafted in the 2nd?  It would feel night and day better but alas we are stuck with the 5th round curse. 😞

Edited February 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah there are a handful of OCs that get a chance to be HC, indeed.

 

But this is a OC moving to be an OC with more authority.

 

Apples to oranges.

 

I like Sheehan as much as anyone but he's not always right.  And in this case IMO he's being negative to be negative. 

 

 

But Howell was drafted in the 5th round?  That alone is the kiss of death.   How can he succeed?  Now if this team drafted him in the 2nd or maybe even 3rd as they originally intended I'd feel a lot better.  Imagine going into the off season if Howell was drafted in the 2nd?  It would feel night and day better but alas we are stuck with the 5th round curse. 😞

Hey man, listen, Maye is generational. But Howell is a fifth rounder. 

[Skinsinparadise]

10 minutes ago, KDawg said:

Hey man, listen, Maye is generational. But Howell is a fifth rounder. 

 

I got to give Howell props for even practicing and trying to get better knowing that its all an exercise in futility.   He should have quit as soon as he was struck by the 5th round curse which is obvious to some but somehow alludes him.

 

Too bad he wasn't drafted in the 7th round like Purdy, they are talking about him being their QB next season.  Thankfully Purdy wasn't drafted in the 5th round.   Even the 4th round for players like Dak and Kirk feels a lot better.  Now if its the third like for Russell Wilson that would a lot better.  Heck even undrafted like Tony Romo or Kurt Warner would have been cool.   But the 5th just feels awful. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[method man]

1 hour ago, mhd24 said:

 

Keenum is a FA.  I'd target him.  He played decently here and is a solid backup QB type that would arouse no controversy.  

Keenum has played in a WCO before but not Reid’s supposedly complicated system like Trubisky presumably has

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, method man said:

For the vet backup, I am not a fan but I would bet on Trubisky. They liked him a bit supposedly last offseason and he knows Reid’s offense (assuming Nagy kept it consistent in Chicago). He is also a fellow UNC QB and he and Howell probably have a bond already

 

I think Pitt cuts him to save $8M. He should cost < $5M to come here

 

I don't like Trubisky in the context of starting but be cool with him as a backup.  I don't think he's a good QB but his mobility is underrrated IMO.

 

Andy Dalton could be an option.  He played for Nagy for a year.

 

10 minutes ago, method man said:

Keenum has played in a WCO before but not Reid’s supposedly complicated system like Trubisky presumably has

 

 

Part of what I didn't like about Trubisky the more I probed into him is he didn't come off to me as the brightest dude for various reasons I stated in the previous QB thread.  So not sure how much Trubisky mastered the system but I agree he must know it.  Dalton on the other hand comes off to me a bright QB based on what I've digested.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

For Sheehan and anyone else that is down on this move, ummm…what exactly were the better options?

 

He’s not going to give up future assets and cash for another retread QB.

We started the offseason with Scott Turner as OC, of whom most all of us had come to accept he needed to go.  But given his contract status seemed unlikely.  Ron pulled the trigger on that and hung out for almost 2 months, and ended up with the SB champs OC.

 

To poop on this move says to me you were going to poop on any move.

Edited February 20, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[method man]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I don't like Trubisky in the context of starting but be cool with him as a backup.  I don't think he's a good QB but his mobility is underrrated IMO.

 

Andy Dalton could be an option.  He played for Nagy for a year.

 

 

 

Part of what I didn't like about Trubisky the more I probed into him is he didn't come off to me as the brightest dude for various reasons I stated in the previous QB thread.  So not sure how much Trubisky mastered the system but I agree he must know it.  Dalton on the other hand comes off to me a bright QB based on what I've digested.

I would take Dalton in a heartbeat too and forgot be was in Chicago for a year. Unless NO lands Carr or Jimmy G, Dalton is their starter next year especially because NO doesn’t have a first

4 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

For Sheehan and anyone else that is down on this move, ummm…what exactly were the better options?

We started the offseason with Scott Turner, of whom most all of us had come to accept he needed to go.  But given his contract status seemed unlikely.  Ron pulled the trigger on that and hung out for almost 2 months, and ended up with the SB champs OC.

 

To poop on this move says to me you were going to poop on any move.

I don’t think he is necessarily pooping on it but he is throwing doubt on it

[Conn]

I’d look into McCoy if he doesn’t retire and is healthy enough, if he’s free. WCO experience and skillset. Good guy, great mentor in the QB room for Howell, not controversial or a threat at all but capable enough as a game manager. Could see a guy like him transitioning into an Assistant QB coach in retirement, too and going from there. 
 

I’d roster a much more athletic young 3rd string QB though if a guy like McCoy (or Dalton, etc.) is the pure backup. That way if Howell goes down for too much time there’s a wildcard option present. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, method man said:

I don’t think he is necessarily pooping on it but he is throwing doubt on it

That would be the case with anything this team does though.  They could have went out and got Brady, and I’d be convinced his well was dry.  That’s just how it is here.

 

I have no idea if EB will work out or not.  History says likely not.  But what was the better option?

[method man]

12 minutes ago, Conn said:

I’d look into McCoy if he doesn’t retire and is healthy enough, if he’s free. WCO experience and skillset. Good guy, great mentor in the QB room for Howell, not controversial or a threat at all but capable enough as a game manager. Could see a guy like him transitioning into an Assistant QB coach in retirement, too and going from there. 
 

I’d roster a much more athletic young 3rd string QB though if a guy like McCoy (or Dalton, etc.) is the pure backup. That way if Howell goes down for too much time there’s a wildcard option present. 

The issue is that WCOs are different these days and my guess is Andy’s is going to be quite different from Gruden’s. There is supposedly a learning curve from going from one WCO to another. I think part of the reason they want to bring in another veteran QB is to mentor Howell in the system. Helps to have a guy who had played in the Reid system already. Unfortunately, under this premise, we are looking mainly at guys who have played for Nagy and Doug P. 

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That would be the case with anything this team does though.  They could have went out and got Brady, and I’d be convinced his well was dry.  That’s just how it is here.

 

I have no idea if EB will work out or not.  History says likely not.  But what was the better option?

I’m not arguing. Just saying it is Sheehan’s schtick. I will say though that Roman was Sheehan’s guy (a lot of it due to Cooley thinking Roman is the best run game mind of the last 20 years)

 

To be fair, if I were Ron and didn’t have Dotson or Samuel, Roman would be a no brainer for me too

Edited February 20, 2023 by method man

[Rex Tomb]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It would feel night and day better but alas we are stuck with the 5th round curse. 😞

[NickyJ]

2 hours ago, mhd24 said:

 

Keenum is a FA.  I'd target him.  He played decently here and is a solid backup QB type that would arouse no controversy.  

I liked Keenum and felt like he could have done better if he wasn't playing someone's lame duck season, but from the little I've seen of him with the Brown and Bills, it seemed like he's lost a bit of the zip on his passes. It isn't the end of the world if his arm is weak, but I do wonder how much more he's got left in the tank.

Edited February 20, 2023 by NickyJ

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, method man said:

The issue is that WCOs are different these days and my guess is Andy’s is going to be quite different from Gruden’s. There is supposedly a learning curve from going from one WCO to another. I think part of the reason they want to bring in another veteran QB is to mentor Howell in the system. Helps to have a guy who had played in the Reid system already. Unfortunately, under this premise, we are looking mainly at guys who have played for Nagy and Doug P. 

I’m not arguing. Just saying it is Sheehan’s schtick. I will say though that Roman was Sheehan’s guy (a lot of it due to Cooley thinking Roman is the best run game mind of the last 20 years)

 

To be fair, if I were Ron and didn’t have Dotson or Samuel, Roman would be a no brainer for me too

 

You're not doing this, but the whole, "We should have gotten Roman. No one wanted Bienemy" argument makes me laugh every time.

 

Someone on that side of the fence (not you, MM, you're not on that side, I know) remind me where Roman is currently coaching...

 

I'll wait. 

 

To keep this thing on the rails: Why not give Sam Howell the reigns? Really. Why not? Its kind of like Bienemy... if it works out we are sitting on a gold mine. If it doesn't... oh well. I just don't get it.

 

But then again, Maye is generational and Howell is a fifth rounder with very similar statistical production. 

Edited February 20, 2023 by KDawg

[Thinking Skins]

14 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I know.  I have listened to Sheehan forever.  I listen to almost every podcast, too

 

 

He doesn't like Carr as much as some do, including Cooley.  But he'd take him here.   So its not that he doesn't think Carr is a good QB but he is not as high on him as some.

 

So he prefaces his point that he's not a big Carr guy but he'd take him here but he doesn't push that point much, he mentions on occasion he'd be on the table for him.  But yeah Rodgers is who he is obssessed with.  Last year it was Wilson and Rodgers.  The year before Stafford and Darnold.

 

 

As I said in anothert thread.  What Sheehan is referencing is his interviews for a head coaching job.  He ended up being an offensive coordinator. Yet he acts like its the same thing.

 

It's like saying why isn't so and so ever appointed general.   Then our army appoints him colonel (not general) and somehow its apples to apples?  I like Sheehan but IMO he's off on this.

 

 

 

So what's Sheehan saying about Wilson and how bad he is? Wasn't Heinicke better than him last year? Will be have anything to say if Howell is better than Carr and/or Rodgers this year? Or is it all based on the 5th round thing?

[method man]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

You're not doing this, but the whole, "We should have gotten Roman. No one wanted Bienemy" argument makes me laugh every time.

 

Someone on that side of the fence (not you, MM, you're not on that side, I know) remind me where Roman is currently coaching...

 

I'll wait. 

 

To keep this thing on the rails: Why not give Sam Howell the reigns? Really. Why not? Its kind of like Bienemy... if it works out we are sitting on a gold mine. If it doesn't... oh well. I just don't get it.

 

But then again, Maye is generational and Howell is a fifth rounder with very similar statistical production. 

Agreed. With Roman, it’d be a safe bet we would go 8-9, 9-8 or 10-7 assuming health but that probably wouldn’t have been enough for Ron to keep his job.
 

He needed the home run as you said. I think he needs to go at least 10-7, look good in a playoff game and allow Howell to develop to keep his job for 2024. 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

So what's Sheehan saying about Wilson and how bad he is? Wasn't Heinicke better than him last year? Will be have anything to say if Howell is better than Carr and/or Rodgers this year? Or is it all based on the 5th round thing?

 

Sheehan owned up to be wrong about Wilson. I can't recall him ever owning up about Darnold and he was beyond persistent about it back in the day.

 

But his obsession is definitely Aaron Rodgers.

 

As far as Howell, he has nothing really profound on the topic.  It's basically this.

 

A. 5th round pick

B.  How many 5th round picks succeed?

C. He thinks the fact that they didn't play him until the end questions how much they truly believe he's good

D.  Expects a down year -- but I haven't heard him say that recently

E.  A veteran to put Howell on the bench should be on the table but he's not really that pushy on that point aside from pushing Rodgers.

 

As for Carr, he thinks he's a decent QB but a bit overhyped.  He's odd on it.  Basically he agrees that Carr is a good QB but then says he never has been a Carr guy unlike Cooley and some others.  So he's a bit all over the place on Carr.

 

In short, he's feeling very confident in all his takes now because of the arrows he took for slamming the Wentz trade.  For example, Craig Hoffman and Russell in contrast were much more against that trade than Sheehan but i don't sense they are strutting about their takes in general now based on their guess about Wentz (which was betting with the house).

 

But Sheehan who again I preface things by saying I love his show.  But he can get obnoxious, when he nails a prediction.  And yeah he's feeling himself because of Wentz busting.

Edited February 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

Not sure why anyone would want Roman over Bieniemy. Maybe if this were 1982.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

it least its not QB

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Go Daniel Jones.  Get your 45 million!

 

@wit33 to me the test for the "good" not great QB or the better analogy to Kirk IMO is Daniel Jones.  Kirk had better numbers.  But overall its more similar.  Daniel like Kirk started slow and then picked it up, had a good season right before hitting FA and his team decided to let it unfold this way where the leverage could change. 

 

In their case unlike Kirk, it makes more sense to tag him if Jones agent is asking for 45 million because the discrepancy is big between those two figures.  So the 32 million looks cheap in comparison.  In Kirk's case the discrepancy with the tag wasn't that big but the hold up was guaranteed money.

 

Jones is still young and in theory on the upswing.  Carr and Jimmy G aren't young and aren't on the upswing.  So IMO this is the one to watch.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Wyndorf25]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

it least its not QB

 

 

 

 Funny how not one single team has RB as their biggest need...

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Warhead36]

If I'm the Giants I tag Jones and try to trade him to some QB desperate team. I mean if Daboll can make Jones go from bottom 5 to being offered more than $40 Mil per year, imagine what he can do with someone with legitimate talent.

[Conn]

Related:

 

 

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, Conn said:

Related:

 

 

I don’t disagree. The flip side is… well… us.

[method man]

37 minutes ago, Conn said:

Related:

 

 

 

Cool to see Anand get a mention. I've talked with him a few times one on one over the years. Smart guy who used to work for the league helping teams out with salary cap questions.

Edited February 20, 2023 by method man