The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

36 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

A bit of hyperbole, sure. But the point is Daniels hasn’t proven he can operate at a high level with subpar surrounding talent. Maye has. 
 

I know you may not agree with this point, but I do think Daniels is a bit lacking when it comes to anticipatory throws, and I don’t think it’s primarily due to the offense he was in. More often than not, he needs to see his receivers come open before he throws it. That will mean he’ll need longer in the pocket (better protection) and receivers who can consistently separate at a high level.  Otherwise, I don’t have much hope the offense will be able to consistently move the chains. It’ll take a lot more than a pass catching RB. 

 

 

As for me not agreeing that he doesn't throw with antcipation.  I think I have been leading the argument that its an issue with him let alone I don't agree with it. 

 

Again, I am not Daniels > Maye.  I am Maye > Daniels.  I am just not in the camp that its a joke to compare the two.  And i've listened to and read enough to know that the consensus take no matter what corner we are talking about isn't that its Maye by a mile and the discussion itself is absurd to even have.

 

Both QBs have weaknesses, to me Daniels main one is exactly this.  Throwing with anticipation.  Can he adjust to this.  I don't know.  Gruden seems to think so.  He thinks the LSU offense didn't require it much.  He actually doesn't think Kingsbury offense requires much throws with anticipation, which surprises me but Jay could be wrong. 

 

When you throw in the flat, you don't have to wait for guys to get open -- they are already open.  When you throw deep you are usually forced to throw with anticipation because you got to put the ball ahead of the Wrs.  It's those 2nd level throws where that shows up when you often have to throw ahead of the WR which he hasn't shown he does much of.

 

When I think at what Daniels does better than Maye its IMO 3 things.

 

A.  first level throws in the flat.   Maye is a bit of a mess on tha front.  In fact I'd summarize all of the Maye criticisms from those talking heads to be mostly centered on this point.  He's erratic with them oddly.  And even his completions often have the WR adjusting to the ball which makes YAC difficult.  Daniels throws them seamlessly.  The best in this class at this throw IMO is Bo Nix but my issue with him is he majors too much in this throw and doesn't have enough other tools.

 

B. Mechanics are more consistent -- hence his accuracy is more consistent

 

C. Running ability.  Maye can run.  But Daniels is at a different level.

 

I know some will say Daniels throws the best deep ball and has the stats to back that.  I disagree.  I think its a wash with him and Maye.  And neither are perfect with it.  Daniels can put a bit too much air on it IMO and Maye's deep ball at times is a bit flat.  Both by and large both are good with it.  To me Daniels deep ball demands more of a ball tracking type ala Desean Jackson in his heyday.

 

Edited April 13 by Skinsinparadise

[SkinsFTW]

7 hours ago, illone said:

 

this looks and sounds like a public invite. 
 

I’ll bring the music and JJ McCarthy jerseys. 
 

🔊

 

So who's gonna bring the Jaden Daniels Pinata?

 

 

[Est.1974]

28 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But yeah in general, i don't think one QB needs more than the other. It's that they are different ways to amplify their strengths.  

Yep I’d agree on that.

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

My personal issue is the overall lack of size of our receiver core.

 

What realistic deep threats WITH SIZE will potentially be available for us in the third or 4th round, anyone can answer?

 

I used to be fixated on size.  Am not as much anymore.  I am more into seperation.  Terry and Dotson for whatever reasons struggled to seperate last season.  and for a rookie QB, they need guys getting open.

 

Especially watching Maye, his guys weren't open much last year.  for him in particular am more sold that he would benefit from crafty route runners that would ht the ground running in the NFL and are open in the line of his vision on the 2nd level.  That's part of my obsession in the draft thread for McConkey, Pearsall, Wilson.  But they might all be gone by the third.  Going deeper into the draft, players of that ilk:  Thrash, McMillan.

 

As for the third-forth round, your guy might be there Johnny Wilson, he feels boom-bust but I'd lean boom.   He's just IMO an OK seperator but he does other things well.  If Legette falls that far, I'd run to the podium to take him -- good for either QB IMO but especially Daniels.

 

Ja'lynn Polk, isn't that tall, he's a bit over 6'1, but he's a physical WR, he could be there in the third.  He doesn't have Legette's ceiling IMO but has a higher floor.

 

Brendan Rice fits the profile.  I haven't studied him.  i watched a lot of him when watching Caleb.  I wasn't really wowed by him in that context.  But i need to just focus on him and watch him.  Maybe at somepoint today.

Edited April 13 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

35 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

hyperbole, sure. But the point is Daniels hasn’t proven he can operate at a high level with subpar surrounding talent. Maye has. 

Ok so it was hyperbole.

 

Maye has ?

 

Maye had a down year in 2023 by comparison. And yep, Daniels excelled in 2023 surrounded by stud receivers.

 

Pros and cons to both. 
 

To suggest Daniels needs a significantly stronger OL and WR group than Maye is ridiculous.

[Riggo'sRangers]

1 hour ago, RandyHolt said:

Got a record player? I'll bring Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds... on 45 of course.

 

Just in case things get really bad.

 

 

I’ll bring my Sony Biotracer turntable & throw in a pair of PSB Stratus Gold speakers.  Good or bad, it’ll be fun!  Can bring amp & preamp if needed. 😊

[Warhead36]

Im trying to talk myself into Daniels and I just cant. The more I watch and read the more I dislike the pick. 
 

I so hope he Quinn and Peters oroves me wrong. If Daniels ends up on IR and Maye is putting up big numbers for the Pats you IMMEDIATELY put EVERYONE on the hot seat. 

[WashingtonRedWolves]

1 hour ago, HTTRDynasty said:

If we do take Daniels, we should draft OL and WR in every round. Build the most stacked offense possible and recreate what he had in his one great college season. 

Hell, trade for aiyuk while we’re at it

[Skinsinparadise]

 

[skinsfan66]

4 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

It’s illogical, IMO, for us to be less than 2 weeks out from the draft and still not have a strong preference. Still being very undecided right now on that would be a concern for me.

 No concern here, they are preaching patience.  It's part of the process for them as we have learned.   

[Llevron]

I particularly love the idea that we are going to draft a QB and not give him a quality oline and WRs that can get open. 
 

What are you guys even talking about lol

[DogofWar1]

30 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Im trying to talk myself into Daniels and I just cant. The more I watch and read the more I dislike the pick. 
 

I so hope he Quinn and Peters oroves me wrong. If Daniels ends up on IR and Maye is putting up big numbers for the Pats you IMMEDIATELY put EVERYONE on the hot seat. 

 

Ultimately Daniels is someone I'd be perfectly happy to pick...at 3.

 

But at 2 I'm concerned.

 

That being said, there's enough bright side to warrant some major optimism.

 

His mechanics and accuracy are good and he's got a quick release.  I am unsure how long it will take, but I tend to think he'll be coachable to not "run first" when the pocket breaks down but rather keep his eyes up.  A lot of it will be just building into the playbook an outlet.  The implication from his college coaches was he was told "you get no outlets because you are the backup plan."

 

If you drill into him that he isn't to run until he's checked if his checkdown is covered, and you get him some good checkdown options at RB and TE (insert reference to Bowers post from Draft thread) he might be more coachable than we think.

 

The big issue remaining I think is gonna be throwing with anticipation.  My hope there is the leap he made from year 4 to 5 can be made again in that department.  He does it SOMETIMES, but he'll need to improve.

 

However, if he is a "see to believe" kinda guy, he is at least 6'4" so at least he can see, unlike some guys who are shorter and can't even see.

 

I think there's a pretty good offense to be built around a guy who, while being a bit of a see-to-believe kinda guy, has the wheels to get 1st downs, has good mechanics and accuracy and a quick release.  But I think you'd want good pieces around him.  But that just requires us to draft offense and not suck at picking.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But yeah in general, i don't think one QB needs more than the other. It's that they are different ways to amplify their strengths.  

 

Disagree.  If you want Jayden to be able to make plays, then you have to load up your OL and receiver room.  He's never played without high quality outside receivers, and he just isn't as good at managing pressure or making quick reads and decisions as Maye.  He doesn't see the whole field as well.  Maye has eyes in the back of his head and spent two years making tons of big time plays against pressure.

 

Picking Daniels needs to be followed up by an effort to get Brian Thomas.  Either that, or we need to go big game hunting for a current star.  Jefferson, Aiyuk, Waddle, somebody of that caliber.  Jayden needs somebody to help him speed up the process in order to succeed.

[FootballZombie]

Came across an article where people were polled about what would go down at #2

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/media-team-management-members-expect-jayden-daniels-drafted-number-2-overall-patriots-commanders/

 

We don't know the exact makeup of the voters, its simply claimed to be 140 respondents from "people from media, team management, and league management", but if these results actually mirror what various insiders were hearing from their sources around the NFL than its not surprising why they would think our team would be leaning in a given direction.

 

The poll was asking about who will be taken at #2, whether its by us or someone else.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Warhead36]

"Management" implies agents. 

[Llevron]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

"Management" implies agents. 

You want that to be true so bad lol

[DogofWar1]

Who are the like 6-7 people saying MHJr.

 

Expose those people so we can fire them.  There should be precisely 1 person saying MHJr should be the pick at 2 and that's MHJr's agent (who last I heard didn't exist but he may have since hired someone).

[Llevron]

2 minutes ago, DogofWar1 said:

Who are the like 6-7 people saying MHJr.

 

Expose those people so we can fire them.  There should be precisely 1 person saying MHJr should be the pick at 2 and that's MHJr's agent (who last I heard didn't exist but he may have since hired someone).

He doesn’t have an agent but maybe he has a “management” 😉

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Disagree.  If you want Jayden to be able to make plays, then you have to load up your OL and receiver room.  He's never played without high quality outside receivers, and he just isn't as good at managing pressure or making quick reads and decisions as Maye.  He doesn't see the whole field as well.  Maye has eyes in the back of his head and spent two years making tons of big time plays against pressure.

 

Picking Daniels needs to be followed up by an effort to get Brian Thomas.  Either that, or we need to go big game hunting for a current star.  Jefferson, Aiyuk, Waddle, somebody of that caliber.  Jayden needs somebody to help him speed up the process in order to succeed.

 

It's not like we got garbage WRs right now.   We need a third, I don't think the 3rd has to be an insanely good.  But someone who can seperate and make contested catches.  Jayden's not scared to make the deep throws.   

 

It's the 2nd level where he hesitates  He's somewhat like Russell Wilson has been in the pros in that he prefers the flat, going deep and throwing outside the numbers versus in between the numbers.

 

I think the first level YAC WR is in play for Daniels, too.  He does well with those throws.  Corley, Malik Washington, players like that who excel from the flat.  

Edited April 13 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

It's not like we got garbage WRs right now.   We need a third, I don't think the 3rd has to be an insanely good.  But someone who can seperate and make contested catches.  Jayden's not scared to make the deep throws.   It's the 2nd level.  He's somewhat like Russell Wilson has been in the pros in that he prefers the flat, good deep and throwing outside the numbers versus in between the numbers.

 

I think the first level YAC WR is in play for Daniels, too.  He does well with those throws.  Corley, Malik Washington, players like that who excel from the flat.  

 

The whole reason to draft Jayden over Maye is to try and reproduce his offense from last season.  You want the guy who can gash teams for playing man coverage against him.  But in order to do that, you need speed and elite outside weapons.  You need guys who torch zone and force super soft man coverage carried deep.  You want weapons that will force a DB to cover with his back turned to the LoS for 8 seconds on the play clock.  You want to run vertical offense and you do not want your flats to constantly be occupied because you want them cleared out for Jayden to run through.  Guys like Corley are not a good fit with a Jayden Daniels offense.

 

You also definitely need to load up your pass pro in order for him to even opt to throw shallow crossers.  He waits forever to pull the trigger on these things.

 

This is why I don't think people are acknowledging just how limited a Jayden Daniels offense really is.  It's high maintenance, there are big parts of the field you're barely going to use in the passing game, and it's going to get easy to defend come playoff time.

[Voice_of_Reason]

So I was listening to Keim's podcast with Quinn, and before the interview, he was going through the article about talking to coaches and Scouts and former coaches and scouts, and that Daniels' name came up the most.

 

He also said Kiper said something like "Washington shouldn't overthink it, just pick Daniels."

 

Preamble: I'd be fine with Daniels if that's the pick. The rest of this post really isn't picking a side, I don't honestly care that much. I prefer Maye for the reasons I've stated, and it's mostly personal preference in QB style.  The rest of this is more a commentary on the media.  

 

Having said that, 2 other thoughts:

1. I think Kiper is setting up a stage show so if we go Maye, he has something to react to and can start flame throwing right away.  He didn't create this industry simply because of his hair spray and being right.  He's mostly wrong.  He created this industry by being interesting and provocative.  And I like Mel and I think he should be in the HOF.  But I've seen this movie before.  His schtick is to take a side, and take that side hard, so on draft day he can have an  overreaction.  Because that's good theater.  He blew up because he went HARD for Trent freaking Dilfer.  Who might be the worst QB ever to win a SB just because he got lucky and was in the right place at the right time.  But in general Dilfer was a TERRIBLE NFL QB. And Mel was wrong.  Loud wrong.  But, you could argue the entire modern draft was built on that exchange between Mel and Bill Tobin, when Tobin asked "Who is Mel Kiper anyway?"  

 

2. I come back to this: 50-60% of QBs chosen in the top are either complete outright busts or don't live up to their potential.  What Schefter and Keim are doing is asking the exact people who are responsible for these 50-60% flop rate what they think.  What's to say they are right?  What's to say the group think is right?  They have as much of a chance of being right as wrong. This is not to say they shouldn't ask.  They should.  But you're asking the same people who are wrong all the time what they think, and I think that should be factored into the analysis.  

 

Let's say Keim asked Kyle Shanahan what he thought. Keim would have Kyle's cell number.  I'm going to assume he asked Kyle.  I'd also assume he asked pops.  Definitely Jay (had him on a podcast I think, I skip those so I don't get dumber), probably Ron, Maybe Ol' Man Callahan, probably Scott Turner, almost certainly Sean McVay, maybe McDaniels, and the rest of that 2013 coaching staff.  

 

Kyle was the guy who picked Trey Lance.  Or at least, he's the top of that organization and there is no way that pick was not STRONGLY influenced by him. Does that make Kyle a bad coach?  No.  A bad evaluator?  No.  Does he have more credentials to have the opinion than just about anybody?  Yes.  But could he be dead wrong?  Yes.

 

You can go through the rest of the obvious people Keim (and for that matter, Schefter) would ask, and you can basically go through the same exercise.  Jay spent 4 years trying to convince everybody his adopted son Colt McCoy could be a starter at the NFL level.  He was wrong.  He was literally NEVER right about that. 

 

I have no idea what the "right" choice is.  I don't think there is one.  I don't think there is a "safe" choice either.  

 

If they select Daniels:

1. His processing speed and mechanics + deep ball accuracy and mobility could make him a nightmare of a QB for years.  He could show he can make tight window throws with anticipation, and can win from the pocket and add the additional dimension of being a run threat.  

OR

2. His size could lead to injuries and his lack of arm strength could shrink the field so the passing game is more compressed and easier to defend, which means he's headed to Justin Fields territory quickly.  

 

If they select Maye

1. His top-end arm talent and ability to hit tight-window throws, deep balls and move in the pocket could make him one of the best QBs in the league, with the ability to move in the pocket and extend plays making his up-side that of Herbert or even slightly higher (he's a better athlete than Herbert.)

OR

2. His mechanical flaws are not fixable, he misses easy throws to get into advantageous down/distance consistently, puts themselves behind the sticks which leads to sacks, pressures and a very inconsistent and bad offense.  Which would lead to him ending up in Carson Wentz territory fairly quickly.

 

Any of those scenarios could play out.  I almost think each is as likely as the next, and unless you have a DeLorean time machine, there's no way you could know which one is more likely.

 

There are draft analysts which would stake their reputation on each of the 4 scenarios as the most likely.  Some would be wrong and the others would be lucky.

 

 

[BMagic]

40 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

The whole reason to draft Jayden over Maye is to try and reproduce his offense from last season.  You want the guy who can gash teams for playing man coverage against him.  But in order to do that, you need speed and elite outside weapons.  You need guys who torch zone and force super soft man coverage carried deep.  You want weapons that will force a DB to cover with his back turned to the LoS for 8 seconds on the play clock.  You want to run vertical offense and you do not want your flats to constantly be occupied because you want them cleared out for Jayden to run through.  Guys like Corley are not a good fit with a Jayden Daniels offense.

 

You also definitely need to load up your pass pro in order for him to even opt to throw shallow crossers.  He waits forever to pull the trigger on these things.

 

This is why I don't think people are acknowledging just how limited a Jayden Daniels offense really is.  It's high maintenance, there are big parts of the field you're barely going to use in the passing game, and it's going to get easy to defend come playoff time.

I've said the same. Daniels can throw the slot fade all day long. They'd have to build an infrastructure like the Bengals and Eagles for it to work. Brown/Smith and Chase/Higgins type big bodies who can destroy man coverage. To be fair, both of those teams have been in recent SuperBowls even though they both came a tad short of winning it.

 

Kingsbury doesn't run an anticipatory passing system and his offenses always tailed off after blazing starts. I also wouldn't draft to fit a coordinator's scheme. Different story if it's a head coach who'd be around for the long haul.

Edited April 13 by BMagic

[WashingtonRedWolves]

Having an infrastructure like the bengals or eagles sounds good to me 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Conn]

The entire draft world knows there is 0% chance we move off of the 2nd overall pick, and the Pats #3 pick is where the fun starts. And coincidentally everyone in the draft world wants Daniels to go at #2 so that Maye can be the prize being fought over at #3. Funny how that works. 

[BMagic]

12 minutes ago, WashingtonRedWolves said:

Having an infrastructure like the bengals or eagles sounds good to me 🤷🏻‍♂️

It can work great when the QB is in their Rookie deal. When it comes time to pay them, they end up losing a Tyreek Hill or a Tee Higgins and other valuable pieces. Then, more of the load is on that QB's plate. Mahomes could handle it since he still had Kelce. I'm interested to see how Josh Allen does without Diggs and at least Burrow will still have Chase.