The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[The Consigliere]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

What’s confusing is how absolutely absurd this conversation is. It’s wild you’re holding court for a guy who didn’t play in a game. He didn’t play in a game. Regardless of why, that answers the question. 

No it doesn't. You don't see the nuance here? 

 

There are some guys that flat out couldn't and can't perform the task of QB. Brandon Weeden in the past, Zach Wilson now etc. It's obvious. We can watch, they couldn't play the position period, Jake Locker etc. 

 

With Matt Corrall, he battled depression, had mental make up issues potentially related to that, and basically quit the game for non-football reasons. We have no idea what he could have been or not based on that reality. As another example, Justin Blackmon's mental makeup issues (in this case addiction), sabotaged his ability to play the game so he became a bust, but unlike Corrall, he was able to play just long enough for us to know what he could be, before his mental health issues insured "they wouldn't be". Blackmon's a bust, because of addiction issues. He could play, he showed it, but his addiction issues sabotaged it.

 

With Corrall, physical injuries and mental make up concerns sabotaged him before we could even see what he was as a prospect, period. We'll never know. 

 

I'm not sure why this is complicated either. We all get they used a top 50 pick on the guy, they got nothing out of the pick, the pick was a waste. Yes. But there is a difference between a player busting because he, "can't play," and a player failing to contribute because of outside factors. 

 

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, The Consigliere said:

No it doesn't. You don't see the nuance here? 

 

There are some guys that flat out couldn't and can't perform the task of QB. Brandon Weeden in the past, Zach Wilson now etc. It's obvious. We can watch, they couldn't play the position period, Jake Locker etc. 

 

With Matt Corrall, he battled depression, had mental make up issues potentially related to that, and basically quit the game for non-football reasons. We have no idea what he could have been or not based on that reality. As another example, Justin Blackmon's mental makeup issues (in this case addiction), sabotaged his ability to play the game so he became a bust, but unlike Corrall, he was able to play just long enough for us to know what he could be, before his mental health issues insured "they wouldn't be". Blackmon's a bust, because of addiction issues. He could play, he showed it, but his addiction issues sabotaged it.

 

With Corrall, physical injuries and mental make up concerns sabotaged him before we could even see what he was as a prospect, period. We'll never know. 

 

I'm not sure why this is complicated either. We all get they used a top 50 pick on the guy, they got nothing out of the pick, the pick was a waste. Yes. But there is a difference between a player busting because he, "can't play," and a player failing to contribute because of outside factors. 

 

 

 

Yes it does, you don't see the hard data in front of you?

 

A guy that doesn't play can't be the best QB in a class. 

 

It's a literal concept. It's not abstract. 

 

It's straight forward and clear cut.

 

You can wax poetic about how Corral may have performed if he was able to play in the League. And it's unfortunate that he couldn't. Mental health is a real life concern and it's a really difficult task to climb out and beat it. Corral has to handle that the way he has to handle that. I support him from a human standpoint 100%.

 

Having said that, the guy that has never played a down in the NFL cannot be the best QB in a draft class.

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, illone said:

 

Howell basically made it through the "college" season, 12 games, and then ran out of gas. I was looking at the game logs the other day and it stuck out like a sore thumb. I literally think he just got worn out and wasnt physically and mentally ready for a 17 game slate yet. Never mind he had very little help in the play calling department, or defense for that matter.

 

These are things that can be resolved. I mean its not like he pissed down his leg all year.  He showed some splash plays and running ability for much of the campaign...

 

He seems like a hard working kid that is coachable enough to resolve them. Get him into a conditioning program this off-season. Learn Kingsbury's offense starting NOW. Film room. Diet. Maybe eat a little steak.

 

I could be dead wrong, but i think we have yet to see the best of Sam Howell.

I view that take as overly simplistic for two reasons:

#1 the team clearly quit during the Dallas game and barely put in much of an effort the rest of the season. I grant this is speculative, but I think all of us saw it.

 

#2 the team's schedule became infinitely harder the last six weeks of the season. I know I, and I'm sure others mentioned that we'd learn a lot about Howell in terms of how he handled that. The first 11 games of the season only included two quality teams: Philly and Buffalo. The rest of the schedule (6 games) featured Dallas twice, the Rams, San Francisco, the Jets Defense, and Miami, or essentially 5 of 6 against playoff teams (when only 3 of the first 11 were), and 5 of 6 against elite defenses (only Miami had a sub-elite defense, and there's was average, not actually bad.

 

To me that was the clincher. Maybe the college schedule effect happened? Maybe. But I think more likely what really hurt him was the team quit just in time for a run of games against an absolute murderers row of defenses and teams with the playoffs on their mind. Gone were the pathetic losers we'd played throughout the first 11 games (NYG, Arizona, Denver, Chicago before the Sweat trade, all those crap teams), and in were the teams fighting for a playoff spot or seeding, and fighting with great defenses against a redskins team that had seen its defense collapse late against Seattle and NYG, and then implode totally against Dallas on Thanksgiving).

 

I think that, more than anything, killed him. Even the ----ing coaches didn't seem to give a ---- down the stretch. Did Howell get a fair shot? Nope. Definitely not, but that aint changing what will happen on a thursday in late April, the new HC and GM aren't going to saddle themselves with the question mark that is Howell when they have a top pick in a rare QB draft. 

 

Not fair to Howell, but that's the way it works. Its got nothing to do with fair, as Clint said thirty plus years ago. 

7 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

Yes it does, you don't see the hard data in front of you?

 

A guy that doesn't play can't be the best QB in a class. 

 

It's a literal concept. It's not abstract. 

 

It's straight forward and clear cut.

 

You can wax poetic about how Corral may have performed if he was able to play in the League. And it's unfortunate that he couldn't. Mental health is a real life concern and it's a really difficult task to climb out and beat it. Corral has to handle that the way he has to handle that. I support him from a human standpoint 100%.

 

Having said that, the guy that has never played a down in the NFL cannot be the best QB in a draft class.

Well, in fairness to you, I'm indulging a different argument, so I'm kind of caught in cross talk. I don't think he's the best QB in the class, we'll never know what he could have been, the best we can say about him is as a college prospect he was regarded as #1 or #2 generally in the class. As a pro he was a question mark. So I see your point here and respect it, point taken. 

[HTTRDynasty]

 

[illone]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

I view that take as overly simplistic for two reasons:

 

 

That's a fair appraisal as I will openly admit to over using "occam's razor" thinking in most situations. There is definitely some nuance here that my argument doesnt take into account.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

...But I think more likely what really hurt him was the team quit just in time for a run of games against an absolute murderers row of defenses and teams with the playoffs on their mind. Gone were the pathetic losers we'd played throughout the first 11 games (NYG, Arizona, Denver, Chicago before the Sweat trade, all those crap teams), and in were the teams fighting for a playoff spot or seeding, and fighting with great defenses against a redskins team that had seen its defense collapse late against Seattle and NYG, and then implode totally against Dallas on Thanksgiving).

 

I think that, more than anything, killed him. Even the ----ing coaches didn't seem to give a ---- down the stretch. Did Howell get a fair shot? Nope. Definitely not, but that aint changing what will happen on a thursday in late April, the new HC and GM aren't going to saddle themselves with the question mark that is Howell when they have a top pick in a rare QB draft. 

 

 

Hard to miss how poorly the rest of the team performed down the stretch.  If their off-season vacation plans werent booked after the Seattle game, then they definitely were after the 2nd Giants game. I agree, they flat out quit on Rivera and lost all faith in everything he was telling them. I dont even blame the players, Paddleboat Ron made so many boneheaded in-game decisions I'd rather forget about em than try to rehash the nightmare. But that's partly why I think Howell could be a sneaky good player down the road. The arm talent is there and the work ethic is there. Just needs competent NFL coaching.

 

Im not saying we should hand Howell the starting job next season. Au contraire. The kid is under contract for the next two seasons either way. I'm only suggesting he has a chance to improve and I'm not ready to stick a fork in his career.

 

Agree that this team will be selecting a QB in April, probably with the #2 pick, but I wont be shocked if they move down to target someone other than the big 3 we've all been worn out discussing already. I could see a scenario where we end up with a Nix or JJ McCarthy in the draft and have a real QB competition this summer and into training camp.

 

We shall see!

 

 

16 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

 

I feel like I am being lied to, probably because I am, but this rumor is picking up smoke.

 

https://heavy.com/sports/chicago-bears/shane-waldron-caleb-williams-drake-maye/

 

[redskinss]

20 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said:

 

 

If we give up a haul to move up to get Caleb and he busts while either maye or daniels succeeds we'll look like the biggest horses ass.

 

This is the main reason I don't see them doing it, too much risk from both a draft capital standpoint and p.r. standpoint, risk reward doesn't seem aligned.

 

We'll be the Panthers only much worse, not only did we give up massive capital to move up for the wrong guy but we could have had the right guy for nothing.

 

Just don't see them wanting to kick off this all new regime with such a big gamble. 

[kingdaddy]

5 hours ago, Rolo Tomasie said:

Even though I support drafting a QB at #2 I am also intrigued by how Kingsbury will improve Howell, who is still younger than Penix and only weeks older than Daniels.

 

Howell through week 10 was doing really well, he had delivered only one stinker of a game - Buffalo. Aside from that game he had thrown 17 TDs to 5 INTs and was close to the league lead in yards. But there were already signs that things were going south. His feet were getting happy and he was starting to flee the pocket from phantom pressure. He was doubting himself on throws and it all went downhill from there. I don't want to build around him at this point but I would like to see if he can be coached back to that earlier headspace.

Good post. Sam also was captaining a sinking ship where even the fans, me included, were rooting for losses after the playoffs were an afterthought. Can't imagine how many players checked out, including the entire defense, once Sweat and Young were dealt. Sam got beaten up every week and finally broke, at least mentally....I would think a new coaching staff will understand this and give him some benefit of the doubt.

[Conn]

8 hours ago, illone said:

 

Zierlein's latest mock has him going 12 to Denver, which makes a ton of sense to me, so the only way to make it happen in that scenario is to strike a deal with Minnesota one slot above them. I'm sure there are others interested in moving up, but Minny seems like a logical partner if JJ becomes the target. I know a lot of people have JJ in the 2nd round, but I dont see that happening unless he bombs the private workouts.

 

I think he goes top 10 when it's all said and done with. I'd be shocked if he makes it past 13...

 

You can’t safely make that move. If you move down and still have an obvious QB need (which we would), Denver (or someone else) can just jump you. There’s no way to move from 2 and ensure you get your guy at QB, especially if he was enticing enough to you to pass on the top 3 and trade down—you’d have to be a pretty arrogant organization to assume no one else finds him that enticing. 
 

This is why in the end we’ll likely just stay put and draft our favorite QB at 2. Because any deviation from that enters too many variables into the equation and you may never get “your guy” (unless they’re unimpressed by all the QB’s. Which would be a major upset). 
 

All the fun trade down scenarios in the world can be bandied about, second tier QB targets can be theorized about. But if you don’t take your guy when you can after the unlikely miracle that was finishing #2 overall…you don’t really love any of the QB’s. Which means you’ll never likely love a QB prospect enough to pull the trigger, because there’s almost never multiple prospects with less questions and flaws than the guys this year. There are never multiple Lucks or multiple Trevor Lawrences or even multiple Burrows. You have to fall in love with someone’s traits and have a plan to deal with their perceived flaws. And you’re likely never drafting this high again anytime soon without trading two or three 1sts to accomplish it.
 

That’d all be a shame given the suffering this past season represented, and how that felt like a microcosm of the last 20+ years. 

Edited February 7 by Conn

[clskinsfan]

48 minutes ago, illone said:

 

 

That's a fair appraisal as I will openly admit to over using "occam's razor" thinking in most situations. There is definitely some nuance here that my argument doesnt take into account.

 

 

 

 

Hard to miss how poorly the rest of the team performed down the stretch.  If their off-season vacation plans werent booked after the Seattle game, then they definitely were after the 2nd Giants game. I agree, they flat out quit on Rivera and lost all faith in everything he was telling them. I dont even blame the players, Paddleboat Ron made so many boneheaded in-game decisions I'd rather forget about em than try to rehash the nightmare. But that's partly why I think Howell could be a sneaky good player down the road. The arm talent is there and the work ethic is there. Just needs competent NFL coaching.

 

Im not saying we should hand Howell the starting job next season. Au contraire. The kid is under contract for the next two seasons either way. I'm only suggesting he has a chance to improve and I'm not ready to stick a fork in his career.

 

Agree that this team will be selecting a QB in April, probably with the #2 pick, but I wont be shocked if they move down to target someone other than the big 3 we've all been worn out discussing already. I could see a scenario where we end up with a Nix or JJ McCarthy in the draft and have a real QB competition this summer and into training camp.

 

We shall see!

 

 

 

 

I feel like I am being lied to, probably because I am, but this rumor is picking up smoke.

 

https://heavy.com/sports/chicago-bears/shane-waldron-caleb-williams-drake-maye/

 

This is exactly what you would expect to start seeing if Caleb keeps sending nuanced signals that he doesnt want to play for Chicago. The Bears will claim they "preferred" Maye and that is why they traded the first pick to us. IF it happens. 

38 minutes ago, redskinss said:

We'll be the Panthers only much worse

The major difference is the quality of the prospect. Everyone agrees Caleb is a lightyears better prospect than Young was. It is universal. 

[HeHateMe75]

Serious question.  Why in the hell are people arguing about Matt Corral in our next QB thread?  Who ****ing cares?

 

I thought there were some weirdos on the multiple Redskins/Washington Facebook groups I'm in, but damn, just damn.

Edited February 7 by HeHateMe75

[Mooka]

46 minutes ago, redskinss said:

 

If we give up a haul to move up to get Caleb and he busts while either maye or daniels succeeds we'll look like the biggest horses ass.

 

This is the main reason I don't see them doing it, too much risk from both a draft capital standpoint and p.r. standpoint, risk reward doesn't seem aligned.

 

We'll be the Panthers only much worse, not only did we give up massive capital to move up for the wrong guy but we could have had the right guy for nothing.

 

Just don't see them wanting to kick off this all new regime with such a big gamble. 

 

The Panthers moved up from #9 though. That's a big difference from trading up from #2.

 

Value-wise moving up from #2 to #1 is a middle 2nd round pick. 

 

Not saying CHI will trade down for the minimum value or draft value charts are gospel but it shouldn't take a haul to move up one spot. 

[seantaylor=god]

59 minutes ago, Conn said:

 

This is why in the end we’ll likely just stay put and draft our favorite QB at 2. Because any deviation from that enters too many variables into the equation and you may never get “your guy” (unless they’re unimpressed by all the QB’s. Which would be a major upset). 
 

All the fun trade down scenarios in the world can be bandied about, second tier QB targets can be theorized about. But if you don’t take your guy when you can after the unlikely miracle that was finishing #2 overall…you don’t really love any of the QB’s. Which means you’ll never likely love a QB prospect enough to pull the trigger, because there’s almost never multiple prospects with less questions and flaws than the guys this year. There are never multiple Lucks or multiple Trevor Lawrences or even multiple Burrows. You have to fall in love with someone’s traits and have a plan to deal with their perceived flaws. And you’re likely never drafting this high again anytime soon without trading two or three 1sts to accomplish it.
 

That’d all be a shame given the suffering this past season represented, and how that felt like a microcosm of the last 20+ years. 

Agree. You have to take your QB if they have a first round grade at 2. Daniels, Maye, JJ, whomever, you have no guarantee if you trade past 3 you get the one you want.

[Rolo Tomasie]

As someone who plays poker a bit and negotiates a bit.... This is kind of funny. "Hey let's leak it that we don't want Caleb and instead fleece the team behind us to pay up to take a guy we don't want!!!" Uh......Adam Peters reads Twitter too. We should not offer the Bears anything. Either they like Caleb and we will pick from the other two, or they don't and we might pick him. LoL, these Bears fans are delusional.

[illone]

43 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

This is exactly what you would expect to start seeing if Caleb keeps sending nuanced signals that he doesnt want to play for Chicago. The Bears will claim they "preferred" Maye and that is why they traded the first pick to us. IF it happens. 

 

Apparently he hasnt even hired an agent yet, so everything we are getting right now is without representation. I have to assume at this point, now that Chicago has their OC, CW and his camp knows what they want. We'll find out soon enough...

 

[CapsSkins]

44 minutes ago, HeHateMe75 said:

Serious question.  Why in the hell are people arguing about Matt Corral in our next QB thread?  Who ****ing cares?

 

I thought there were some weirdos on the multiple Redskins/Washington Facebook groups I'm in, but damn, just damn.

 

Funny enough, it's a second-order argument to determine the credibility of Louis Riddick, which is being debated bc Riddick likes Daniels over Maye so our resident #1 Daniels Fan is pumping up his evaluation skills. 🤣 

[WashingtonRedWolves]

To trade up for the #1 spot would tell me that peters and co. truly believe that caleb can pull a horseshoe out of his ass and is spectacular enough to carry us to the playoffs in year one, thus rendering the loss of the 2025 1st as far less meaningful since it would be in the back half of the round. But all signs and talk thus far have been of a multi-year rebuild, so i don’t see why they would give that pick up when it could easily be top 10 again next year.

 

And I’ve heard multiple people talk about sitting whoever the pick is at qb and letting sam play another year. Not happening if they give up that haul for williams, he’s going in day 1

[CapsSkins]

8 minutes ago, WashingtonRedWolves said:

To trade up for the #1 spot would tell me that peters and co. truly believe that caleb can pull a horseshoe out of his ass and is spectacular enough to carry us to the playoffs in year one, thus rendering the loss of the 2025 1st as far less meaningful since it would be in the back half of the round. But all signs and talk thus far have been of a multi-year rebuild, so i don’t see why they would give that pick up when it could easily be top 10 again next year.

 

And I’ve heard multiple people talk about sitting whoever the pick is at qb and letting sam play another year. Not happening if they give up that haul for williams, he’s going in day 1

 

If we draft a QB at 2 overall that young man is starting day 1 whether it's Caleb, Drake, Jayden, JJ, Michael, Bo, or whoever else.

[ThatNFLChick]

18 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Funny enough, it's a second-order argument to determine the credibility of Louis Riddick, which is being debated bc Riddick likes Daniels over Maye so our resident #1 Daniels Fan is pumping up his evaluation skills. 🤣 

 

So this is totally wrong.

 

Chris Simms had Corral as his #1 and THAT is whose evaluation skills were being debated (btw Simms hasn't even put out his list for this year so we have no idea who he likes yet). Riddick didn't even grade that Howell/Willis/Pickett draft class. 

 

 

Would anyone be willing to trade down from 2 to 13 if the Raiders made us an absurd offer?

 

 

Edited February 7 by ThatNFLChick

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, HeHateMe75 said:

Serious question.  Why in the hell are people arguing about Matt Corral in our next QB thread?  Who ****ing cares?

 

I thought there were some weirdos on the multiple Redskins/Washington Facebook groups I'm in, but damn, just damn.

 

Because we were discussing Phil Simms evaluation skill and it’s direct correlation to whether or not he has a higher hit rate than the average pundit and how his opinion should be weighted RE: Jayden Daniels.

 

Unlike your typical Facebook group, there is nuance debated here and it lasts for more than one back and forth.

 

Welcome.

Edited February 7 by KDawg

[CapsSkins]

6 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

So this is totally wrong.

 

Chris Simms had Corral as his #1 and THAT is whose evaluation skills were being debated (btw Simms hasn't even put out his list for this year so we have no idea who he likes yet). Riddick didn't even grade that Howell/Willis/Pickett draft class. 

 

 

Would anyone be willing to trade down from 2 to 13 if the Raiders made us an absurd offer?

 

 

 

Apologies - a lot of bullets flying in this thread, hard to keep up 🤣

 

As for LV, let's give it a whirl... 13 overall, Maxx Crosby, Davante Adams, and next year's 1st rounder.

 

In other words, a price they are not going to pay. 

[ThatNFLChick]

Just now, CapsSkins said:

 

Apologies - a lot of bullets flying in this thread, hard to keep up 🤣

 

As for LV, let's give it a whirl... 13 overall, Maxx Crosby, Davante Adams, and next year's 1st rounder.

 

In other words, a price they are not going to pay. 

 

Honestly if Kingsbury and Quinn fall in love with someone like McCarthy or Nix I would at least hear offers. I mean, who thought the Panthers would be dumb enough to trade all that away for Bryce Young?

[CapsSkins]

1 minute ago, ThatNFLChick said:

 

Honestly if Kingsbury and Quinn fall in love with someone like McCarthy or Nix I would at least hear offers. I mean, who thought the Panthers would be dumb enough to trade all that away for Bryce Young?

 

Vegas, Minnesota, and potentially Atlanta are going to put together sizable offers to move into the top 3. But it essentially has to be a Godfather-type offer for us to take it and those teams aren't going to give that up IMO.

 

Minnesota isn't trading Justin Jefferson and he's a guy I'd need coming back to consider moving out of 2.

[Conn]

5 hours ago, srtman04 said:

 

I'm getting serious Chase Young vibes from Caleb.....hard pass for me.  

 

 

 

Edited February 7 by Conn

[dunfer]

48 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

Funny enough, it's a second-order argument to determine the credibility of Louis Riddick, which is being debated bc Riddick likes Daniels over Maye so our resident #1 Daniels Fan is pumping up his evaluation skills. 🤣 

Pepe Silvia Situation

[dunfer]

20 minutes ago, Conn said:

 

 

 

chase young needs to get motivated