The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[zCommander]

9 minutes ago, Conn said:

Wake up. You can prefer whoever you like, you’re a fan. But sentences like this just cut down your credibility. 

 

It is nice to know I have some credibility left after my whole Wentz vs.TH stance lol  

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by zCommander

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

And Allen looked like a non-MVP against the Jets. Who is the Jets QB again lol

 

I know Sam is doing great. I knew he would be good but he is gone above even my own expectations. But when someone said he is no Allen that I can't hang with though. I think people also forget that Allen has been on a playoff team and Sam isn't. 

 

Meh, every QB has bad games and has down years. Mahomes is having a somewhat so-so season as well, at least compared to his usual play. It doesn't mean those guys aren't still elite. You know I'm a big fan of Sam, but Allen has been a proven top 3-5 QB for several years now so I don't think you can really compare them.

 

And yeah Sam has made some pretty awesome plays with his arm, but let's not act like Allen hasn't. Allen's arm talent is ludicrous and when you add in his scrambling ability you get some truly jaw dropping plays.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

52 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

And Allen looked like a non-MVP against the Jets. Who is the Jets QB again lol

 

I know Sam is doing great. I knew he would be good but he is gone above even my own expectations. But when someone said he is no Allen that I can't hang with though. I think people also forget that Allen has been on a playoff team and Sam isn't. 

….you don’t think there’s a correlation between them being consistent contenders and Josh Allen’s play ??? 
 

After a really quick Google search, he’s top 10 in EPA since 2018. Frequently in or around top 5 in QPR. 6th in TD passes. 57-29 as a starter. Are you sure you’re thinking of the right Josh Allen? I know he didn’t play all that well Monday but in ‘23 alone, he’s 4th in EPA and 4th in QBR. Leads the league in TD passes. Like what am I missing here? 

[Voice_of_Reason]

58 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

It is nice to know I have some credibility left after my whole Wentz vs.TH stance lol  

 

It wasn’t the Wentz vs. Hallock stance.  
 

It was trying to convince people Hallock is an NFL QB.  
 

Which as we’re seeing again in Atlanta, he’s not.

 

Bram might be the last clinger on to the fact Hallock isn’t the worst starting QB and at best 20th best backup in the NFL.  

[zCommander]

13 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

It wasn’t the Wentz vs. Hallock stance.  
 

It was trying to convince people Hallock is an NFL QB.  
 

Which as we’re seeing again in Atlanta, he’s not.

 

Bram might be the last clinger on to the fact Hallock isn’t the worst starting QB and at best 20th best backup in the NFL.  

 

In 2021, maybe. Fringe starter but a great backup. I thought what if we had a legit OL I wonder what TH could do. The moxie and all. Plus I had enough with the retreads and the whole rinse and repeat game. But then in 2022 it didn't help much even though he did fair better than the standing statue of Wentz. Even last year I was hoping Ron would put Howell in after the bye. I am glad he pushed Ron to start Howell in that last game. At least he was a nice guy and cared more about Howell's future than Ron did. 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by zCommander

[zCommander]

41 minutes ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

….you don’t think there’s a correlation between them being consistent contenders and Josh Allen’s play ??? 
 

After a really quick Google search, he’s top 10 in EPA since 2018. Frequently in or around top 5 in QPR. 6th in TD passes. 57-29 as a starter. Are you sure you’re thinking of the right Josh Allen? I know he didn’t play all that well Monday but in ‘23 alone, he’s 4th in EPA and 4th in QBR. Leads the league in TD passes. Like what am I missing here? 

 

Allen also leads the league in INTs as well. Aren't sacks part of the QBR/EPA ratings? Who has had the most sacks this year? 

 

A little more digging. In 2018 and 2019 the Bills OL was at the bottom half of the league. But in 2020 their OL ranked #10 and Allen had 1500 more yards than the previous year and had 17 more TD as well (went from 20 to 37). Sam doesn't have a good OL and still has some stats that are impressive for a rookie with no OL. As to how many games Sam has won? Let's not forget if we had a top 15-20 D we would have won more games this year as well. Sam is on team with bad OL and D. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by zCommander

[Skinsinparadise]

8 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

 

I really dont. He needs to go with the rest of the organization. It is time for a FULL rebuild. That means all of the coaches must go. 

 

I've pretty loudly said i don't want to retain him or any coordinator for the next GM-HC, let them decide who they want.  And I also said loudly I don't want him as the next HC.

 

You quoted me saying I feel mixed about him as a play caller. So if you are saying you really don't, I presume this means you don't like him as the current playcaller.   For me as the current play caller, he's IMO been up and down hence I feel mixed.

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

15 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Makes sense. Strong interior is beneficial for a lot of styles of QB play. For Brees it was having consistent throwing lanes open. Others like Lamar Jackson, teams want the QB to be able to step up as a matter of habit and then escape through the pocket vertically which is easier to do with IOL firmly winning their blocks.

 

One option to improve the interior would be trading back in the 1st round and grabbing the LT from Washington, Fautanu (I think?), and moving him to LG. Maybe he could work at RT? But he just looks like he could handle LG really well.

 

Keim has talked about this on and off.  Basically, because of Howell's height, having a clean pocket in the interior is more important for him than most as to his vision.  And the Saints factored that for Brees.

 

I am enjoying the constant berating from Keim for months now about how he's incredulous that this FO didn't do more to help Howell specifically for the O line.   The ironic thing is Keim has heavily implied that this current regime behind the scenes recognizes that they didn't do enough on that front and if this regimes survives (albiet it won't) they'd try to address it for real this time.

 

Keim as usual is polite when making his points and doesn't make his points that bluntly.  But he's dived into this topic so many times now, that its clear that this regime likely gets what many of us here did this off season, they signed their own coaching death warrant by how little they did to improve the O line.

 

The irony is they decided to address the secondary clearly as their top want and this might be the worst secondary in the league right now with Keim mentioning CB as potentially a top need in the off season -- and no not just because Fuller is a FA.  

 

We got a good QB and yet this team is 4-6.   What a disaster of an off season. 

  

Edited November 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

14 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

A little bit bummed to hear Ian Hartitz and Matt Kelley settle on "Good" Baker Mayfield, and later on Jeff Garcia as comps for Howell.

 

 

 

 

Not sure why it matters.  There are people all over the place on Howell, mostly positive.  With ex-QBs who we've quoted here saying Howell has the potential to be special.  And then some saying they aren't sure or whatever. 

 

I'd say lets see the season ride out.    As you know the first season isn't typically the peak of powers one for first time starters.  I am interested to see his hopefully continued growth.

 

He's going to face some vicious defenses coming up -- Dallas twice, SF, Jets.  Dolphins are pretty good.  The Giants not so much but their coaches have had this coaching staffs number. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Going Commando]

6 hours ago, BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93 said:

Like what am I missing here? 

 

That you are arguing with a crazy Homer who understands nothing about the NFL outside of this team.  I backed out when I realized he truly believes that Sam is better than Burrow and Allen.

[Warhead36]

Look I like Howell but if you're gonna say he's better than Josh Allen then...sorry I can't argue outside of the realm of reality.

 

Its the inverse of people who tried to argue Heinicke was a top 15 QB.

[zCommander]

2 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

That you are arguing with a crazy Homer who understands nothing about the NFL outside of this team.  I backed out when I realized he truly believes that Sam is better than Burrow and Allen.

 

Your are right. I am a crazy homer who also said no to Russell Wilson, Carr, Garoppolo, Wentz and Turbs.Some of you thought I was crazy back then as well. How are they working out for their teams. But you are right I have no clue about NFL outside of this team. It is not like I turn on my TV at 1pm and turn it off at 11:30 pm every Sunday or watch TNF or MNF or even watch a lot of breakdowns. 

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, zCommander said:

 

Your are right. I am a crazy homer who also said no to Russell Wilson, Carr, Garoppolo, Wentz and Turbs.Some of you thought I was crazy back then as well. How are they working out for their teams. But you are right I have no clue about NFL outside of this team. It is not like I turn on my TV at 1pm and turn it off at 11:30 pm every Sunday or watch TNF or MNF or even watch a lot of breakdowns. 

None of those guys are on Allen or Burrow's tier man be serious "lolol"

[zCommander]

10 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

None of those guys are on Allen or Burrow's tier man be serious "lolol"

 

No. But I was right about them and said they are on the decline. Why is it I and maybe some saw that but others really wanted them here. I said go with TH and just draft a franchise QB instead. But you all thought I had lost it. 

 

Another thing, I saw how well Howell did on pro-day. I knew he was better than all other QB in that class. I don't even watch college football. I might not be right all of times. But if I see something I can really see it. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2023 by zCommander

[Conn]

4 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Your are right. I am a crazy homer who also said no to Russell Wilson, Carr, Garoppolo, Wentz and Turbs.Some of you thought I was crazy back then as well. How are they working out for their teams. But you are right I have no clue about NFL outside of this team. It is not like I turn on my TV at 1pm and turn it off at 11:30 pm every Sunday or watch TNF or MNF or even watch a lot of breakdowns. 

Gaining false confidence in your own knowledge because you’re anecdotally correct on certain topics that stick out in your mind is a dangerous thing. It’s how gamblers who think they have a winning system get in deep, for instance. Amateur stock traders, same thing. Randomly being right sometimes on some things does not make you any more credible on other things at other times. 

[zCommander]

 

6 minutes ago, Conn said:

Gaining false confidence in your own knowledge because you’re anecdotally correct on certain topics that stick out in your mind is a dangerous thing. It’s how gamblers who think they have a winning system get in deep, for instance. Amateur stock traders, same thing. Randomly being right sometimes on some things does not make you any more credible on other things at other times. 

 

I also do the eye test as well. I don't gamble anymore, have lost more in Vegas than I like to admit. Stocks I do better at, at least the ones I pick and not the one my son tells me to buy  like the hottest biotech stock lol. I try to be well informed before I make a decision. Lots of research using various tools. Football is no different to me. I said Chase was a bust two years ago. I call them as I see it. That's all. 

 

At this point I truly think Howell is better than Allen given the state of our OL and D as a rookie vs. Allen the rookie or even 2nd year. How well Allen be playing right now if behind a crappy OL and D? You have to take that into account to make any sense of it as to where I am coming from. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

@zCommander at least when you used to valiantly defend TH and post screenshot after screenshot with off-the-wall excuses and explanations for why his ducks weren’t ducks, it made for good jokes.

 

We all like Sam and don’t want to nitpick and debate his play negatively.  Please stop.

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

25 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

 

I also do the eye test as well. I don't gamble anymore, have lost more in Vegas than I like to admit. Stocks I do better at, at least the ones I pick and not the one my son tells me to buy  like the hottest biotech stock lol. I try to be well informed before I make a decision. Lots of research using various tools. Football is no different to me. I said Chase was a bust two years ago. I call them as I see it. That's all. 

 

At this point I truly think Howell is better than Allen given the state of our OL and D as a rookie vs. Allen the rookie or even 2nd year. How well Allen be playing right now if behind a crappy OL and D? You have to take that into account to make any sense of it as to where I am coming from. 

Honestly I’m just glad to see we still have true die hard fans around. I and pretty much anyone else (Sam’s family included) would disagree with your points but hope you’re right someday 

[MisterPinstripe]

Its crazy looking around the NFC East and seeing how dismissed Howell is by the other teams fans. I see him being compared as just another Colt McCoy, no different than Jason Campbell, etc. 

[Llevron]

18 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Its crazy looking around the NFC East and seeing how dismissed Howell is by the other teams fans. I see him being compared as just another Colt McCoy, no different than Jason Campbell, etc. 

Its because you can use the volume stats as an argument and most people only look at the stats. No on is watching out games so they don't see the **** he does that is actually impressive. 

 

The idea I guess is anyone can have those numbers when they throw that much. But you have to SEE some of the **** he does (with what he is working with) to really appreciate it. A little common sense would help people too but you are talking about Eagle, Cowboy and Giant fans......so they are hopelessly stupid anyway. 

[Warhead36]

34 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Its crazy looking around the NFC East and seeing how dismissed Howell is by the other teams fans. I see him being compared as just another Colt McCoy, no different than Jason Campbell, etc. 

Really? Most places I go they are really complimentary of Howell if not outright raving about him.

[Voice_of_Reason]

11 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

In 2021, maybe. Fringe starter but a great backup. I thought what if we had a legit OL I wonder what TH could do. The moxie and all. Plus I had enough with the retreads and the whole rinse and repeat game. But then in 2022 it didn't help much even though he did fair better than the standing statue of Wentz. Even last year I was hoping Ron would put Howell in after the bye. I am glad he pushed Ron to start Howell in that last game. At least he was a nice guy and cared more about Howell's future than Ron did. 

 

That’s one way of looking at it.

 

the other, correct way is he wasn’t going to play in a meaningless game and risk injury going into unrestricted free agency.  
 

He might have cared about Howell.  But he cared more about himself, which isn’t a shot, it’s just fact.

 

He also sucked in 2021, 2022 and 2023.

 

The Falcons are going to cut him after this season.  And he’ll likely be out of the NFL.

[zCommander]

7 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

That’s one way of looking at it.

 

the other, correct way is he wasn’t going to play in a meaningless game and risk injury going into unrestricted free agency.  
 

He might have cared about Howell.  But he cared more about himself, which isn’t a shot, it’s just fact.

 

He also sucked in 2021, 2022 and 2023.

 

The Falcons are going to cut him after this season.  And he’ll likely be out of the NFL.

 

Without a doubt he didn't want to get injured in a meaningless game and be out of the NFL. Two birds with one stone. I haven't seen him play in ATL at all. No interest anymore. I do remember we had said in this thread what if TH had Wentz arm. Well we got our own hell of a lot better version of that in Howell. So I am good for now.  

 

Now I just want to see Howell with a legit OL and a decent D. 

[oraphus]

I am actually a bit with Zcommander on this..  I am not going to say that Howell is already better than Josh Allen... but by the end of their careers i would not be surprised if Howell has the better outcome.

1. At this point the sample size for Howell is waaay too small... so claiming him to be better than Allen is crazy.... but

2. Allen has all the physical tools you would ever want in a QB. Tall, big, fast, rocket arm, can make every throw...   the one intangible he seems to be missing is between the ears. Analysts say that "well he is just a gunslinger and you expect int that from gunslingers"   yeah.. thats bs,..he throws some ugly interceptions in the worst possible time. And its not like he is playing with scrubs around him. 

You know who else had all the physical tools and talent but had issues between the ears.. Wentz.  Where is he now?

This is that one intangible that Howell has in spades... on top of good arm and good mobility

 

Burrows is a freaking stud... i would trade this whole team for Burrows and just have him throw passes to himself. 

[Warhead36]

If you wanna argue that you'd rather have Howell over Allen for a rebuilding team because of the age and contract then I can understand that argument, but in a vacuum there is not one coach or GM that would take Howell over Allen, that's just absurd.