The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Voice_of_Reason]

18 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Ironically, the dude who has your back on this point is your guy Jay Gruden. 

Well, so did Bill Walsh.  
 

If Jay agrees with Walsh then I guess it has to be true…

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Well, so did Bill Walsh.  
 

If Jay agrees with Walsh then I guess it has to be true…

 

The operative point isn't understanding the bare basics of a WCO philosophy.  But how extreme do you want to run with it.  This is the extreme version of it.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

51 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

For me, I am good with a more pass heavy approach.  But I think it’s a half a peg too extreme on that count for me.  Among other things, it helps cue up opponents defenses.  Caroll's comment below I find telling.  More or less, they game planned for the pass happy appproach and were thrown off in the 2nd half when they started to run the ball. 

Sure.  The issue is they ran the ball on each of their first quarter drives but got no more than 2 yards on each run.

 

What’s interesting is I think EB is trying to counter the consistent passing with the power draw out of shotgun.  Almost the reverse play-action.  Instead of showing run then passing, it’s showing pass then running.

 

And it really makes sense theoretically. 
 

Except whether it’s the OL or the RBs, we actively suck at it.

 

When we line up under center, we’re very heavy play action.  
 

A few tweaks I’d like to see:

 

- Run more from under center instead of just using it for play action.

 

- Mix outside and inside zone runs.  We’re almost exclusively outside.  
 

- Give up on the power draw in the first half.  If you’re going to run, just make it a run play and go for it.  Don’t try and trick them.  
 

While I don’t mind the amount of passing we do, I would like the run game to be a lot more consistent and effective in the first half.   If that happens, I think they will run more.  

 

30 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The operative point isn't understanding the bare basics of a WCO philosophy.  But how extreme do you want to run with it.  This is the extreme version of it.

Agree.  And I wonder if that’s more by design or it’s more by necessity because the OL stinks.  
 

Might be some of both.  
 

Btw, I’m case o didn’t come out and say it, the reporting in the off season of the OL stinking certainly was true. I wanted to wait until I saw it. Now I’ve seen it.

 

It stinks.  Maybe not all the time but egads. 

[Llevron]

26 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Sure.  The issue is they ran the ball on each of their first quarter drives but got no more than 2 yards on each run.

 

What’s interesting is I think EB is trying to counter the consistent passing with the power draw out of shotgun.  Almost the reverse play-action.  Instead of showing run then passing, it’s showing pass then running.

 

And it really makes sense theoretically. 

 

FWIW this is exactly how I read the Pete Carroll quote. He is quite literally saying we surprised them and threw them off, which to me is the entire point. It is more likely to be a set up by the play caller....luring the opponent defense to give up on stopping the run because they wont do it, then lining up in a passing set and running it down their throats a few times. Now they don't know wth to do and you can do anything you want. Its not even that theoretical. Its exactly the inverse of Kyle Shannahan's play calling. Run, run, run....wait for you to sell out on the run....pass over you for big gains and take advantage of the panic. And it works because Kyle will force the issue with the run. You as a defense KNOW they are going to run it and run it often so you have to stop that first. Its the same exact ****. 

 

Pete is saying we set them up to defend the pass and they fell asleep thinking we would never run. Then with the game on the line either EB remembered running worked really well (it wasn't yet) or passing wasn't working so we might as well try running (passing was working fine) OR it was a ****ing set up to put the defense off balance when the game was on the line. I just don't see why else he would choose to start running the ball if he hates it so much, with the game on the line, if he is too dumb to see this. That or its blind luck. 

[Skinsinparadise]

59 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Sure.  The issue is they ran the ball on each of their first quarter drives but got no more than 2 yards on each run.

 

Agree.  And I wonder if that’s more by design or it’s more by necessity because the OL stinks.  
 

Might be some of both.  
 

Btw, I’m case o didn’t come out and say it, the reporting in the off season of the OL stinking certainly was true. I wanted to wait until I saw it. Now I’ve seen it.

 

It stinks.  Maybe not all the time but egads. 

 

Could be based on the O line for sure.  As for the 2 yards per run, that doesn't move me that much, 5 reps for example isn't enough to get a rythmn.

 

But on the aggregate I am good with pass heavy.  I didn't love though the 5 step pass happy version of it without much running against teams like the Giants who struggle against the run and are blitz happy -- felt like we played to their strengths.

[Thinking Skins]

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Not much on that front unless they talked about Sam again later in the podcast?    He put his success to his college reps and instincts on the field.    Only praise if you are looking for some for EB that he notices is that its clear they practice what to do when a play breaks down.

I mean that may be why HE says its true but what EB stressed all through camp was the scramble drill and what we saw him not doing well was the scrambling and thats what he is improving on. That's what he talked about today. That's where I'm seeing the improvements. The suddle movements in the pocket vs the take off and run, the keeping his keys down the field, finding his checkdowns. This is where people like Brian Mitchell and Craig Hoffman and other analysts were saying that instead of taking those sacks in weeks 1-8 he needs to find the checkdowns (and I was saying he didn't have time, but now I see the difference). 

 

"these guys are masters of scramble drill".

 

The quote i pointed out in the press conference today is after my post today but it comes into play because it shows that they practice this stuff and he's getting better at it and its showing. 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I mean that may be why HE says its true but what EB stressed all through camp was the scramble drill and what we saw him not doing well was the scrambling and thats what he is improving on. That's what he talked about today. That's where I'm seeing the improvements. The suddle movements in the pocket vs the take off and run, the keeping his keys down the field, finding his checkdowns. This is where people like Brian Mitchell and Craig Hoffman and other analysts were saying that instead of taking those sacks in weeks 1-8 he needs to find the checkdowns (and I was saying he didn't have time, but now I see the difference). 

 

"these guys are masters of scramble drill".

 

The quote i pointed out in the press conference today is after my post today but it comes into play because it shows that they practice this stuff and he's getting better at it and its showing. 

 

There are always stuff of course practiced in camp.    Bieiniemy's drills were more vanilla than the ones I saw from Jay but i only watched one practice this year so maybe it was just that one.

 

Keim-Bram ironically talked about how maybe the run game sucks because of how little they practiced it in camp.

 

Who knows?  but i'll give that there is so much time to emphazise this versus that.  And considering Howell can make plays off schedule its good that they practiced it.

 

Overall from a play design standpoint, play balance, etc, I am not blown away by Bieniemy.  I suspect Howell would have done well other coordinators, too.   i think i am a hard no as for wanting him as HC.  But lol, I am not as strongly opposed as @Koolblue13 and some others if it happened.

 

If it happened.  I'd be dissappointed and dislike it.  But I wouldn't be kicking and screaming.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[The Consigliere]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I want a top HC.   If Harris thinks Bieniemy is that, OK.  If he doesn't, I think it would be borderline ridiculous to elevate Bieniemy just for this reason.  Most HCs are given 3 years or so.  I'd rather not go for a ride that doesn't take you far and then have to readjust with a new coaching staff again.

 

If Howell can adjust within a season from an Air Coryel system to a WCO after his 6th or so career start.  Somehow i think he will manage if the next coach is from the same WCO tree.

Who are the best candidates this offseason? I'm usually more clued in but changed jobs and as a result, my workload is about 3x what it used to be, and I've got a 7 year old, so I don't do nearly as much research as I used to. 

[Skinsinparadise]

Some of the best teams in the NFL have good O lines.   Amusing conversation with Nicki from the WP and forgetting who she talked this with, I think it was Finlay if I recall where Ron went savage to turn a good O line to bad in his tenure here.

 

For those who keep saying PFF is good with this O line and we are haters for not riding with PFF's view.  I'll say it again while PFF doesn't hate this O line they do think its BELOW average.  Ranked 21st for the season so far.  So the most love this O line gets is indeed from PFF who rates it an exciting 21st best in the league.

 

 

21. WASHINGTON COMMANDERS (DOWN 1)

Projected Week 11 starters:

LT Charles Leno Jr.
LG Chris Paul
C Tyler Larsen
RG Sam Cosmi
RT Andrew Wylie

• Washington’s offensive line struggled against Seattle. The unit was charged with 17 pressures allowed — the fourth most in Week 10.
• Left guard Chris Paul earned a negative grade on 42.9% of run plays, which was the worst rate among all offensive linemen in Week 10.

Best player: Sam Cosmi

• Cosmi’s 77.8 run-blocking grade over the past three weeks ranks fifth among NFL guards.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-week-11-2023

[Conn]

I’m bringing my own bias into the listening of this, I’m well aware—but this is so generic and isn’t what I’d expect to hear from someone about their OC if I was hoping to decide whether to chain them at the hip going forward or not. No praise for the way he’s helping him develop or any particular opinion about their communication even, except that it’s “improved” as they’ve gotten to know one another. Howell is a “coach speak” guy when I’ve heard him in pressers but this is beyond bland given the relationship between QB and playcaller. 
 

Probably a nothingburger but we don’t get much of a glimpse into the playcaller/QB dynamic that we so wish we could nail going forward, so I wanted to post it. This doesn’t come across like a QB who would ride or die for his playcaller, or one who consciously credits him for his growth. 

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

There are always stuff of course practiced in camp.    Bieiniemy's drills were more vanilla than the ones I saw from Jay but i only watched one practice this year so maybe it was just that one.

 

Keim-Bram ironically talked about how maybe the run game sucks because of how little they practiced it in camp.

 

Who knows?  but i'll give that there is so much time to emphazise this versus that.  And considering Howell can make plays off schedule its good that they practiced it.

 

Overall from a play design standpoint, play balance, etc, I am not blown away by Bieniemy.  I suspect Howell would have done well other coordinators, too.   i think i am a hard no as for wanting him as HC.  But lol, I am not as strongly opposed as @Koolblue13 and some others if it happened.

 

If it happened.  I'd be dissappointed and dislike it.  But I wouldn't be kicking and screaming.

That's cool because others like JPFinley were (in his own journalistic way) saying that EB and Sam were kinda joined at the hip, more commenting on a Neil Greenberg opinion on the matter that he and Brian seemed to agree with. 

 

The thing about the running game is that yeah he focused on the passing game and Sam. And Sam's development. Many thought that would be to the detriment of the team but it may be to the benefit of Sam proves to be worth it. The Carrol quote shows that they were not expecting us to run and that's the only reason we could run on them. When we tried earlier it didn't work. If EB stays, maybe he'll have time to install more running packages or we'll draft a better back more to his liking, but I'm more positive on BRob in this system now. 

 

I'm pro EB right now being our next coach. I want a search done but I want him as the frontrunner. 

[Skinsinparadise]

12 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

That's cool because others like JPFinley were (in his own journalistic way) saying that EB and Sam were kinda joined at the hip, more commenting on a Neil Greenberg opinion on the matter that he and Brian seemed to agree with. 

 

 

 

I don't get that vibe.  Here his answer seems boiler plate we are getting to know each other better as this goes along.  I recall hearing he was super close with Zampese.  I don't get the same vibe about Bieiniemy.  I think the relationship is decent.  But it feels somewhat common QB talk.  I don't think we'd be breaking up the Beatles.

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

I'm pro EB right now being our next coach. I want a search done but I want him as the frontrunner. 

 

I right now, borderline hate the idea.   Somewhere in between dislike and hate it.   If this season ended today and it happened right now I'd trash it.  Feels very Dan like to me.  But we have another 7 games so my mind might change.

 

I am good with Bieiniemy as OC.  And I was good with it when he was hired.  I was reluctant from the jump as to the HC talk.  I am much more reluctant now.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[The Consigliere]

36 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Some of the best teams in the NFL have good O lines.   Amusing conversation with Nicki from the WP and forgetting who she talked this with, I think it was Finlay if I recall where Ron went savage to turn a good O line to bad in his tenure here.

 

For those who keep saying PFF is good with this O line and we are haters for not riding with PFF's view.  I'll say it again while PFF doesn't hate this O line they do think its BELOW average.  Ranked 21st for the season so far.  So the most love this O line gets is indeed from PFF who rates it an exciting 21st best in the league.

 

 

21. WASHINGTON COMMANDERS (DOWN 1)

Projected Week 11 starters:

LT Charles Leno Jr.
LG Chris Paul
C Tyler Larsen
RG Sam Cosmi
RT Andrew Wylie

• Washington’s offensive line struggled against Seattle. The unit was charged with 17 pressures allowed — the fourth most in Week 10.
• Left guard Chris Paul earned a negative grade on 42.9% of run plays, which was the worst rate among all offensive linemen in Week 10.

Best player: Sam Cosmi

• Cosmi’s 77.8 run-blocking grade over the past three weeks ranks fifth among NFL guards.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-offensive-line-rankings-week-11-2023

Finally a 2nd rounder that isn't a ridiculous overdraft bust (I have hopes for the '23 guy too). Seems like Cosmi's legit, and Leno's a decent stop gap, what did people think of stromberg before he got hurt? Seems like Cosmi and Stromberg might be long term keepers and Leno is a a decent stop gap until we can land a great OT. 

 

Seems like we should prioritize OT, and probably LG over the next two drafts. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I don’t even see how it’s possible to keep him considering, there will be an interview process for head coach for which he likely interviews.  Would be weird to interview and lose out for HC and then interview for OC with the guy who beat you out.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, The Consigliere said:

Who are the best candidates this offseason? I'm usually more clued in but changed jobs and as a result, my workload is about 3x what it used to be, and I've got a 7 year old, so I don't do nearly as much research as I used to. 

 

The hot one is Ben Johnson.  I include an article about it here.

 

 

Ben Johnson, Mike Macdonald and Jerod Mayo among young NFL coaches to watch

 

https://www.nfl.com/news/ben-johnson-mike-macdonald-and-jerod-mayo-among-young-nfl-coaches-to-watch?campaign=Twitter_atn

[Captain Wiggles]

Mayo is only a positions coach tho. 😬

 

Plus New England coaches don't do so well once they leave BB.

[Thinking Skins]

I'm not excited about Ben Johnson. I like that he knows offense and Sam but for all we know he could be another Norv. I want someone who can lead men. And put together game plans. 

 

Now the Philly coach was a laughter when I first saw him so I'm not going to say it's all or nothing but I don't want to think he's in over his head. I definitely felt that about the giants coaches before the current one. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Feels like Ben Johnson is destined to head to LA to coach Herbert.  Let’s just hope Spanos is Spanos and does the wrong thing.

[Conn]

5 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'm not excited about Ben Johnson. I like that he knows offense and Sam but for all we know he could be another Norv. I want someone who can lead men. And put together game plans. 

 

Now the Philly coach was a laughter when I first saw him so I'm not going to say it's all or nothing but I don't want to think he's in over his head. I definitely felt that about the giants coaches before the current one. 

You think Dan Campbell employs a coordinator who can’t lead men? 
 

Also, Ben Johnson can obviously put together game plans. The real question is what does his assistant network look like, who would he bring with him and who could he get as DC for the other side of the ball. 
 

Not sure what you mean with these criticisms. Fair to have questions but I don’t see a reason to think that the seemingly #1 candidate on the market doesn’t have these qualities. Especially gameplanning. 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Conn

[illone]

I still cant figure out why everyone is in such a hurry to anoint Sam "the guy" right now.

 

Team still has another year before they have to make a decision on QB contract so we can just sit back and enjoy the show for the rest of this season and all of next season before he either gets a bag of money from this team, cut, traded for assets, or franchised.  

 

I doubt he gets franchised, but it's on the table as a potential outcome.  

 

I'm just enjoying the fact that this team finally got lucky in the draft and is developing a young up and comer for a change.

[DWinzit]

2 hours ago, Conn said:

I’m bringing my own bias into the listening of this, I’m well aware—but this is so generic and isn’t what I’d expect to hear from someone about their OC if I was hoping to decide whether to chain them at the hip going forward or not. No praise for the way he’s helping him develop or any particular opinion about their communication even, except that it’s “improved” as they’ve gotten to know one another. Howell is a “coach speak” guy when I’ve heard him in pressers but this is beyond bland given the relationship between QB and playcaller. 
 

Probably a nothingburger but we don’t get much of a glimpse into the playcaller/QB dynamic that we so wish we could nail going forward, so I wanted to post it. This doesn’t come across like a QB who would ride or die for his playcaller, or one who consciously credits him for his growth. 

Not a nothingburger. He is probably thinking about all those hits he has taken under EB and wishing they had done a better job of helping that in the off season  

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

You think Dan Campbell employs a coordinator who can’t lead men? 
 

Also, Ben Johnson can obviously put together game plans. The real question is what does his assistant network look like, who would he bring with him and who could he get as DC for the other side of the ball. 
 

Not sure what you mean with these criticisms. Fair to have questions but I don’t see a reason to think that the seemingly #1 candidate on the market doesn’t have these qualities. Especially gameplanning. 

Actually I do. Why would he need that? He can do it. What he probably can't do is the offensive strategy. Hence Ben. Same with a guy like Antonio Pierce. Every coach isn't great at everything. 

[Conn]

4 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Actually I do. Why would he need that? He can do it. What he probably can't do is the offensive strategy. Hence Ben. Same with a guy like Antonio Pierce. Every coach isn't great at everything. 

Sure, like I said, fair to have questions about it until he’s in the interview cycle and we hear more. I just don’t get why you assume he doesn’t have those qualities. Has EB specifically shown leadership qualities? I don’t think so. Not to any perceivable degree that would make me mark it as a positive for him and a negative for an unknown like Johnson. 
 

If I had the time I could probably dig up articles from last hiring cycle talking about the qualities Johnson does or doesn’t have, but for the purposes of this exchange I’m more interested in why you assume he doesn’t have them than whether he actually does or not. 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Conn

[Thinking Skins]

4 minutes ago, Conn said:

Sure, like I said, fair to have questions about it until he’s in the interview cycle and we hear more. I just don’t get why you assume he doesn’t have those qualities. Has EB specifically shown leadership qualities? I don’t think so. Not to any perceivable degree that would make me mark it as a positive for him and a negative for an unknown like Johnson. 
 

If I had the time I could probably dig up articles from last hiring cycle talking about the qualities Johnson does or doesn’t have, but for the purposes of this exchange I’m more interested in why you assume he doesn’t have them than whether he actually does or not. 

Everybody was assuming that EB couldn't land a job because he didn't interview well. Well, I didn't assume that. I think I know why, but I'm gonna keep that out of this forum. But then we heard the press conferences and everybody was like ok this dude is really good with words and is clearly a leader of men. Well maybe there are some who are unimpressed and think it's just eloquent coach speak. But the point remains that he had doubters until he proves them wrong. 

 

I feel that same way about Ben. Ben has not been in that leadership position and having seen Norv and Jay and Zorn who are all on different degrees on their qualities in the leadership scale, but none are up there with the Tomlins. 

[BleedBNG]