The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[zCommander]

42 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Man you guys really are leg humping his one great season...which happened 4 years ago.

 

Imagine if I came into this forum and said "Hey there's a QB I want us to trade multiple 1at round picks for, and who would require a $260 million contract ($185 million fully guaranteed). He's averaged 16.5 TDs, 10 INTs, and 2.5 rushing TDs over the last two seasons. Oh and there are also injury concerns" without saying the name Lamar Jackson, I'd get absolutely roasted, and rightly so.

 

The issue with Lamar is that it's easy to get caught up in his sometimes electric and highlight-worthy style of play (I certainly enjoy watching him sometimes) to the point where it can overshadow the fact that he's been overall very pedestrian as a QB since his huge season 4 years ago. 

 

I had to look outside to see if the pigs were flying or not. I actually agree with you for once lol

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by zCommander

[mistertim]

23 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I had to look outside to see if the pigs were flying or not. I actually agree with you for once lol

 

 

[wit33]

On 7/1/2023 at 5:36 PM, mistertim said:

 

What I'm missing is how that's going to help you when you don't have much of an air game. If teams aren't scared of your QB beating them through the air, then it's much easier to deal with a great rushing attack. As Jackson's passing attack flattened out to mediocre, the Ravens have started losing more games as well. People aren't scared of him passing the ball, and they know how to defend against him now for the most part.

 

On 7/1/2023 at 5:36 PM, mistertim said:

 

It's a passing league now, which everyone knows. What seems to be a bit contradictory with you on this is that on one hand you talk about how the NFL game is evolving, so clearly you know it's not the 80s anymore. But then when it comes to defending Jackson, you basically start talking about a pound the rock, control the clock offense, which is mostly obsolete now. You're not going to be a dominant team in today's NFL with that sort of offense. You have to have a good passing attack to do that. 

 

And what evidence is there that Jackson will improve? His performance has gone down plenty since his one dominant season 4 years ago. Add to that he also has injury concerns now on top of it. If he loses a couple of steps from his injuries then that will basically take away his main weapon.

 

 

 

As far as QBs, I know you have a fervent obsession with "backyard football" but the vast majority of offensive plays in the NFL still go according to the playbook and gameplan. You make it sound like Allen and Mahomes get the ball snapped on every play and just start running around aimlessly looking for receivers who might be open. Yes those guys have a great ability to create something when the play breaks down, as well as have the potential to do designed runs, and that's a hugely nice trait to have, but they also know their playbook like the back of their hand. Why? Because most plays go precisely according to that.

 

That's why things that have made elite NFL passers for a long time: fast processing and decision making, great vision, great accuracy with the football, etc. are still extremely important today. Yes the game has evolved to favor QBs who at least have some dual threat ability, but those passing traits of the elite haven't changed. A guy who doesn't have those things isn't going to be any sort of long term elite QB in the league, regardless of how good a runner he is.

 

Ravens offense put 25 plus points per game when Jackson started— good enough for a top 10 scoring offense. 

 

Ravens averaged 13 points a game (7) in games without him. 
 

Impact. 
 

 

[mistertim]

42 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Ravens offense put 25 plus points per game when Jackson started— good enough for a top 10 scoring offense. 

 

Ravens averaged 13 points a game (7) in games without him. 
 

Impact. 
 

 

 

I'm honestly not sure why you even quoted my post, as you didn't really respond to anything in it.

 

As far as the points (it was actually less than 25, but whatever), I'm truly shocked that a UDFA came in and did worse than the starter.

 

Also worth noting: after the first 3 games of the season, Jackson had little to do with them putting up points. He came out on a tear and then after the 3rd game basically fell off a cliff. He had a total of 12 TDs in the first 3 games and a total of 8 in the following 9.

 

But sure, totally worth $260 million.

Edited July 3, 2023 by mistertim

[wit33]

On 7/1/2023 at 5:36 PM, mistertim said:

 

What I'm missing is how that's going to help you when you don't have much of an air game. If teams aren't scared of your QB beating them through the air, then it's much easier to deal with a great rushing attack. As Jackson's passing attack flattened out to mediocre, the Ravens have started losing more games as well. People aren't scared of him passing the ball, and they know how to defend against him now for the most part.

 

His game is more than just passing. If you’re grading him on the same spectrum as Mahomes or other top yardage and TD guys he will lose every time.
 

It requires thinking beyond these numbers. 

 

On 7/1/2023 at 5:36 PM, mistertim said:

 

It's a passing league now, which everyone knows. What seems to be a bit contradictory with you on this is that on one hand you talk about how the NFL game is evolving, so clearly you know it's not the 80s anymore. But then when it comes to defending Jackson, you basically start talking about a pound the rock, control the clock offense, which is mostly obsolete now. You're not going to be a dominant team in today's NFL with that sort of offense. You have to have a good passing attack to do that. 
 

 

The modern day ground and pound approach remains an option if you’re QB is an elite dual threat guy (Wilson, Newton, Kaepernick have all enjoyed runs to the SB). 

 

Ground and pound with a pocket or even semi dual threat guy provides an opportunity to escape mediocrity and get to the playoffs, but becomes very difficult to win. Though, guys have done it in recent years, Jimmy G, Foles, Peyton Manning etc.. 

 

 

On 7/1/2023 at 5:36 PM, mistertim said:

 

And what evidence is there that Jackson will improve? His performance has gone down plenty since his one dominant season 4 years ago. Add to that he also has injury concerns now on top of it. If he loses a couple of steps from his injuries then that will basically take away his main weapon.

 

The dude is 26, your concerns become more valid when in his 30s. If comparing his injury risk to other QBs, yes, he’s more likely to get injured. 
 

No serious injuries to date and he was incredibly durable to start his career. Not out of this world to think he can return to that while in the prime of his athletic life. 

 

On 7/1/2023 at 5:36 PM, mistertim said:

 

 

 

As far as QBs, I know you have a fervent obsession with "backyard football" but the vast majority of offensive plays in the NFL still go according to the playbook and gameplan. You make it sound like Allen and Mahomes get the ball snapped on every play and just start running around aimlessly looking for receivers who might be open. Yes those guys have a great ability to create something when the play breaks down, as well as have the potential to do designed runs, and that's a hugely nice trait to have, but they also know their playbook like the back of their hand. Why? Because most plays go precisely according to that.

 

LOL… Backyard is the key to all that we desire as Washington fans.

 

Yes, I’ve watched enough games of both Mahomes and Allen that displayed play after play them playmaking countless times. I’m not saying this is the majority, more like 10-30% of the time depending on the opponent and situation. Mahomes has shown more of an ability to cycle through reads and operate from the pocket. 
 

On 7/1/2023 at 5:36 PM, mistertim said:

 

That's why things that have made elite NFL passers for a long time: fast processing and decision making, great vision, great accuracy with the football, etc. are still extremely important today.

 

100% agree. 
 

On 7/1/2023 at 5:36 PM, mistertim said:

 

 

Yes the game has evolved to favor QBs who at least have some dual threat ability, but those passing traits of the elite haven't changed. A guy who doesn't have those things isn't going to be any sort of long term elite QB in the league, regardless of how good a runner he is.

 

To be clear, I prefer the unicorn QB who is an elite passer of the football and playmaker. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by wit33

[mistertim]

28 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

His game is more than just passing. If you’re grading him on the same spectrum as Mahomes or other top yardage and TD guys he will lose every time.
 

It requires thinking beyond these numbers. 

 

 

He's getting paid as if he's the best QB in the game. Given that, he absolutely should be compared to guys like Mahomes and Allen. And he's not even in the same zip code as them. Both of those guys had more rushing TDs than Jackson last season, too.

 

This goes to back to my main point: he's absolutely not in that tier and shouldn't be paid like he is.

[wit33]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

He's getting paid as if he's the best QB in the game. Given that, he absolutely should be compared to guys like Mahomes and Allen. And he's not even in the same zip code as them. Both of those guys had more rushing TDs than Jackson last season, too.

 

This goes to back to my main point: he's absolutely not in that tier and shouldn't be paid like he is.

 

I don’t really care about the he shouldn’t be paid as much as those guys side of the argument, wasn’t aware that was part of this debate. Mahomes and Allen took waaaay less than they could’ve demanded, so Jackson making similar amount isn’t too crazy with that context applied. 

 

I don’t think he’s as good as Josh Allen or Patrick Mahomes. His ceiling and game to game impact rivals them at times. 
 

To your point, he has some added pressure to come through next season. If healthy, it’s pretty much a lock he’ll lead team to 10-14 wins. 
 

 

Edited July 3, 2023 by wit33

[Califan007 The Constipated]

13 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Man you guys really are leg humping his one great season...which happened 4 years ago.

 

Imagine if I came into this forum and said "Hey there's a QB I want us to trade multiple 1at round picks for, and who would require a $260 million contract ($185 million fully guaranteed). He's averaged 16.5 TDs, 10 INTs, and 2.5 rushing TDs over the last two seasons.

 

If you really want to stir the pot unnecessarily lol, next time say that Lamar Jackson's stats over the last two years were eerily similar to Taylor Heinicke's and that Carson Wentz had a higher QBR in 2021 than Jackson did...and Indy shipped his ass out of town. Then grab a beer and watch the festivities lol...

[Koolblue13]

11 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

Impact. 
 

 

It's got electrolytes! 

13 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

I had to look outside to see if the pigs were flying or not. I actually agree with you for once lol

 

I can't believe that you and I agree.

[Mooka]

You guys have to break down the contracts year by year. 

 

By the time Lamar is actually paid like a top QB, it will be well after guys like Burrow/Lawerence/Herbert have signed new contracts and they will be the next highest paid QBs. Just like how Jalen Hurts won't be a top paid QB until 2028 despite signing a $255mil deal. Philly is actually saving money for the next 4 seasons. 

 

Lamar will be the 6th highest paid QB this year. 

11th highest paid QB in 2024. 

9th highest paid QB in 2025. 

1st highest paid QB in 2026. 

 

By 2026 who knows what QB contracts will look like or how big the salary cap will be. 

 

 

Now, would I personally be a fan of trading 1st round picks for Lamar Jackson and giving him a $260million contract? Hell no. And looking back when the trade rumors were active, very few of us around here would've been on board for such a deal. 

 

But we're fans of this team. Our 2 highest paid players last season were Wentz and Curtis Samuel. Who around here would argue that your football team would be better with Wentz/Samuel vs Lamar Jackson? Wentz was a disaster. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[EmirOfShmo]

 

[tmandoug1]

9 hours ago, EmirOfShmo said:

 

🧐

[Skinsinparadise]

This looks good, makes me think one of the most underated qualities of a QB is durability.  

 

 

 

[Conn]

Can’t wait for that show, should be fascinating. The light shed on the weird Mariota situation last year should be interesting, he was destroyed in the media for “abandoning his team” which seemed very out of character, and knew he had cameras following him the whole time…should be worth watching. And Kirk is flawed but when I imagine an iteration of this roster with Kirk Cousins and an aggressive OC, it makes me want to cry. 

[Skinsinparadise]

57 minutes ago, Conn said:

 And Kirk is flawed but when I imagine an iteration of this roster with Kirk Cousins and an aggressive OC, it makes me want to cry. 

 

As JP Finlay (who was no Kirk fan) said recently, he could see the fan atrophy-falling attendance really take hold the season after Kirk left.

 

I do think it was a combination of many cuts that did the Dan era in and led to the sale -- but Bruce's mishandiling of that situation was clearly one of those cuts.

 

We had the worst QBR in the league post Kirk.  And earned that with heavy expense.  Gave up three third round picks.  Spent a first.  K. Fuller.  And it cost plenty of cap room to earn that dead last status, too.  So bad Qb play and costing draft picks and cap room to improve the roster.

 

I know some here hate Kirk.  But we got to thank him for playing hardball and him and his agent outwitting Bruce.  It was IMO among the things in the soup to make all this happen.  But thank Bruce even more for getting no trade compensation for him. 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

My one hesitation about Orlovsky is he seems to like every QB or so it seems.   I recall he was so over the top pushing Haskins (RIP).

 

Not saying Ridder won't be the dude.  I got no idea.  But it should be interesting to see him versus Howell this season. 

 

 

 

[philibusters]

I am excited by Howell, but Falcons are excited about Ridder and the Packers about Love.  Very few fanbases are truly pessimistic at this time of the year.   We just have to wait and see.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

44 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

 

I remember saying that seeing Wentz and Heinicke building comradery together during the offseason and away from practice is a positive that can't do anything but help the QB room and team as a whole.

 

Yeah, I'm not saying stuff like that anymore lol...

[Chris 44]

51 minutes ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

I remember saying that seeing Wentz and Heinicke building comradery together during the offseason and away from practice is a positive that can't do anything but help the QB room and team as a whole.

 

Yeah, I'm not saying stuff like that anymore lol...

Yeah I don't even think Wentz completed a single pass to Heinike in a game. So much for chemistry.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Chris 44

[Califan007 The Constipated]

7 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

Yeah I don't even think Wentz completed a single pass to Heinike in a game. So much for chemistry.

 

Did you miss this part of the post I was responding to?

 

"Love to see Howell and Brissett working together and building a comradery"

[Chris 44]

1 hour ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

Did you miss this part of the post I was responding to?

 

"Love to see Howell and Brissett working together and building a comradery"

Sorry dude. Just joking around as if QB to WR. The initial post reminded me of such, thought it was reminiscent of WR QB dynamics. 

[Califan007 The Constipated]

8 hours ago, Chris 44 said:

Sorry dude. Just joking around as if QB to WR. The initial post reminded me of such, thought it was reminiscent of WR QB dynamics. 

 

I missed that completely, then...I'm normally sharper than that lol...

[Thinking Skins]

17 hours ago, philibusters said:

I am excited by Howell, but Falcons are excited about Ridder and the Packers about Love.  Very few fanbases are truly pessimistic at this time of the year.   We just have to wait and see.

The thing is, Love **** the bed when he first played. Ridder (who I was high on in the draft, probably higher than Howell cause of his mobility) didn't look nearly as good throwing it, 

 

I hate to get excited about one game, but I'm not. I was excited about Howell in the draft. This is why I was big on having a big resume of games played (Ridder and Howell, not Willis), so we could be accurate judges of them in case they did not play as rookies. So now I'm going mostly off college tape and the improvements I've heard he's made (but I'm tapering that because normally I hear things like "improved arm strength" for TH and I then SIP tells me its the same weak arm.)

 

But it was nice to hear Gruden on Sheehan's show yesterday kinda go at him saying no Howell was a first round QB. I don't know why he dropped, but he was supposed to be a first round QB. So We have the fans, Scot, Gruden, Ron, the Martys. Will anybody be able to convince this guy that Howell just dropped for unknown reasons in a bad QB draft and maybe we got lucky?