The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

Having an OC and a QB not on the same page is criminal, it will always end in tears.

 

Ron has to learn from it, any OC we hire has to have a plan that centres around Howell and bringing out the best of his skill set.

 

On Heinicke, Love the guy, love his attitude, love how he plays even if he isn't very effective, love how much it means. But therein lies the problem, if we're going to give Howell the best platform to succeed you can't have a guy sat on the bench that at the first sign of trouble the crowd will call for. He's a rookie there will be tough moments and that's when we're going to need to get behind him not call for the cult hero.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

Having an OC and a QB not on the same page is criminal, it will always end in tears.

 

Ron has to learn from it, any OC we hire has to have a plan that centres around Howell and bringing out the best of his skill set.

 

On Heinicke, Love the guy, love his attitude, love how he plays even if he isn't very effective, love how much it means. But therein lies the problem, if we're going to give Howell the best platform to succeed you can't have a guy sat on the bench that at the first sign of trouble the crowd will call for. He's a rookie there will be tough moments and that's when we're going to need to get behind him not call for the cult hero.

 

That story makes me wonder a little more about the ESPN story about Dan pushing Wentz.  Spitballing here some but maybe Mayhew and Dan.  They leaked that Mayhew was big on Wentz.

 

As I mentioned, Hurney I've read-heard multiple beat guys say was the Howell guy.  Hurney is also from what I hear the dude that designates himself as the Qb guy, he thinks that's his wheel house and supposedly wanted Herbert.

 

It's one of the downsides of their operation with multiple chefs in the kitchen. 

 

 

 

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

Having an OC and a QB not on the same page is criminal, it will always end in tears.

 

Ron has to learn from it, any OC we hire has to have a plan that centres around Howell and bringing out the best of his skill set.

 

On Heinicke, Love the guy, love his attitude, love how he plays even if he isn't very effective, love how much it means. But therein lies the problem, if we're going to give Howell the best platform to succeed you can't have a guy sat on the bench that at the first sign of trouble the crowd will call for. He's a rookie there will be tough moments and that's when we're going to need to get behind him not call for the cult hero.

 

Semantics and nitpicking here, because I am mostly in agreement.

 

The semantics I'm interested in nitpicking is, "any OC we hire has to have a plan that centers around Howell and bringing out the best of his skill set".

 

I think in this situation that is probably a good way of saying it. But in general, it has to be a guy that just evaluates the skillset of Howell and builds an offense around that, and then your back up options need to have a similar, particular set of skills. 

 

The good news is that Howell's skillset is fairly universal in today's game. Can move a little, strong arm, gets the ball out fairly quickly. So in this case everything is one in the same.

 

The reason why this situation might be okay for it to squarely fall on Howell's shoulders is fairly obvious. If we get a new owner the HC (and his staff) won't be employed next year anyways, so may as well suit things directly to Howell. But the backup has to have a similar skillset in case Howell goes down. 

[Skinsinparadise]

For anyone who wants to dig into to Howell some more this article is an incredible read.   It's worth the time IMO.   I read it before the previous draft, I had access to it via a subscription to Go Long because I can access McGinn's draft reporters via that vehicle.  But I reread it this weekend and got me jazzed.  Now I am almost @KDawg level jazzed to see how Howell pans out.

 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/sam-howell-wants-to-be-the-greatest

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Zim489]

11 hours ago, RVAskins said:

I agree completely. Plus, Washington has lots of history with later round QB's.

Joe Theismann was drafted in the 4th round and Mark Rypien in the 6th round. We were able to do pretty well with them. Brad Johnson was a 9th rounder who I think was very underrated with Washington.

 

Irrelevant information in regards to todays game. Really anything QB wise prior to 2011 is irrelevant to any QB conversation to todays game. Hell 2011 is almost irrelevant 

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

Semantics and nitpicking here, because I am mostly in agreement.

 

The semantics I'm interested in nitpicking is, "any OC we hire has to have a plan that centers around Howell and bringing out the best of his skill set".

 

I think in this situation that is probably a good way of saying it. But in general, it has to be a guy that just evaluates the skillset of Howell and builds an offense around that, and then your back up options need to have a similar, particular set of skills. 

 

The good news is that Howell's skillset is fairly universal in today's game. Can move a little, strong arm, gets the ball out fairly quickly. So in this case everything is one in the same.

 

The reason why this situation might be okay for it to squarely fall on Howell's shoulders is fairly obvious. If we get a new owner the HC (and his staff) won't be employed next year anyways, so may as well suit things directly to Howell. But the backup has to have a similar skillset in case Howell goes down. 

 

100%, I could've worded it a bit more specifically. I think using Howell's wheels will be absolutely vital, it was a fun part of Taylor's game at the beginning but over time it just appeared that Scott stripped that away from him which made him less effective, so much as I'd like to think anyone they bring in will scheme Howell up to rush apparently its not obvious to even some coaches in the league.

 

Agree on the latter, there has to be a similar backup and perhaps the most frustrating thing is that Heinicke is pretty much perfect for the role I just think it brings with it a dangerous distraction for Sam.

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That story makes me wonder a little more about the ESPN story about Dan pushing Wentz.  Spitballing here some but maybe Mayhew and Dan.  They leaked that Mayhew was big on Wentz.

 

As I mentioned, Hurney I've read-heard multiple beat guys say was the Howell guy.  Hurney is also from what I hear the dude that designates himself as the Qb guy, he thinks that's his wheel house and supposedly wanted Herbert.

 

It's one of the downsides of their operation with multiple chefs in the kitchen

 

That last sentence is the nail on the head, if the calls land on Ron and are likely pushed from Dan then why are the Marty's there?

 

With hindsight Hurney was the one who had all the answers but instead we seem to leave the QB talent evaluation to Ron Rivera, a former MLB whose only real QB success was the blindingly obvious take of Cam Newton in the draft.

 

Makes you wonder how much involvement Hurney will have in the OC selection

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

 

100%, I could've worded it a bit more specifically. I think using Howell's wheels will be absolutely vital, it was a fun part of Taylor's game at the beginning but over time it just appeared that Scott stripped that away from him which made him less effective, so much as I'd like to think anyone they bring in will scheme Howell up to rush apparently its not obvious to even some coaches in the league.

 

 

Scott has plentty to be criticized about, I wouldn't though hit him on Heinicke's lack of running.  

 

Plenty of evidence that Heinicke stripped his wheels from his game not the coaches.  I puts quotes up here during the season including quoting Rivera saying he should have run more, after talking about the game.  Heinicke saying hey I should have run more when rewatching the film, that was also a quote.  When they run some RPOs and RO, they can't force Heinicke to keep the ball, that's his decision.  We saw what Howell did on a RO, he actually kept the ball and scored. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

For anyone who wants to dig into to Howell some more this article is an incredible read.   It's worth the time IMO.   I read it before the previous draft, I had access to it via a subscription to Go Long because I can access McGinn's draft reporters via that vehicle.  But I reread it this weekend and got me jazzed.  Now I am almost @KDawg level jazzed to see how Howell pans out.

 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/sam-howell-wants-to-be-the-greatest

 

 

I'm sitting back and watching the masses switch their tune on Howell for the most part and just remembering all the arguing and push back that most gave on Robinson, Dotson, Howell and even Mathis (though he remains to be seen). And how they were all awful picks.

 

I hope lessons were learned that judging an entire draft class just because you aren't familiar with a player is silly.

 

At this point, Mr. 5th is worth the 5th rounder already simply for beating Dallas. All bonus from here on out.

 

But it's an interesting social experiment seeing folks who were deadset against him and thinking he stunk becoming some of his biggest fans (not you). But it's also nice in a way to see how people aren't afraid to admit they were wrong and hope for the best. So it's actually a pretty enjoyable experience. 

[method man]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

That story makes me wonder a little more about the ESPN story about Dan pushing Wentz.  Spitballing here some but maybe Mayhew and Dan.  They leaked that Mayhew was big on Wentz.

 

As I mentioned, Hurney I've read-heard multiple beat guys say was the Howell guy.  Hurney is also from what I hear the dude that designates himself as the Qb guy, he thinks that's his wheel house and supposedly wanted Herbert.

 

It's one of the downsides of their operation with multiple chefs in the kitchen. 

 

 

 

 

It’s why as a HC, I’d be worried about joining the Cards and dealing with their “co-GM” situation

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

 

That last sentence is the nail on the head, if the calls land on Ron and are likely pushed from Dan then why are the Marty's there?

 

With hindsight Hurney was the one who had all the answers but instead we seem to leave the QB talent evaluation to Ron Rivera, a former MLB whose only real QB success was the blindingly obvious take of Cam Newton in the draft.

 

Makes you wonder how much involvement Hurney will have in the OC selection

 

From what beat guys have said and JLC too, Rivera is pretty hands off of personnel.  So its the committee where things gets discussed.  Similar system when Gibbs returned with Gibbs having final say.  Similar systm with Bruce with Bruce-Dan having final say.

 

Spitballing some but piecing things togethe, i am guessing it was Mayhew that got hopped up about it and Dan pushed it.

 

I don't get the impression, even a little that Ron is the defacto top evaluator there or sees himself as that -- unlike for example Shanny who reports are did see himself as the defacto top evaluator when he was here and would overrule the personnel guys.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

That piece about Turner not being down with Wentz is a far cry from the reports last offseason of him clicking his heels with giddyness to finally be able to air it out.

[Skinsinparadise]

24 minutes ago, KDawg said:

 

I'm sitting back and watching the masses switch their tune on Howell for the most part and just remembering all the arguing and push back that most gave on Robinson, Dotson, Howell and even Mathis (though he remains to be seen). And how they were all awful picks.

 

I hope lessons were learned that judging an entire draft class just because you aren't familiar with a player is silly.

 

At this point, Mr. 5th is worth the 5th rounder already simply for beating Dallas. All bonus from here on out.

 

But it's an interesting social experiment seeing folks who were deadset against him and thinking he stunk becoming some of his biggest fans (not you). But it's also nice in a way to see how people aren't afraid to admit they were wrong and hope for the best. So it's actually a pretty enjoyable experience. 

 

Agree.  The three players you mention are a big part of my enthusiasm for next season and yes they weren't all well received here. 

 

Parcells liked to say the best scouts-personnel guys are wrong like 50% of the time.  It's not easy to evaluate players. 

 

The verdict is still in obviously on Howell.  But if they are seriouslly excited about starting Howell, and they like how he handles himself in that building -- that is a much better lead up to what we are used to with our young QBs.   

 

Some here (not you) have a really really really hard time admitting when they are wrong and just dig deeper and deeper on their points even when evidence indicates they are wrong.   Personally, I don't get it.  i've been right, i've been wrong.  It's OK to be wrong. If we were 100% right or close to it as some insinuate they are   they are wasting their time hanging here and should not only be running a FO but they would be legends in short order considering they'd be the first borderline flawless GM in NFL history.  So I don't get why they hang with us mortals if they see themselves as that level good. 

 

To me its all about giving it your best shot with analysis which you do very well among some others here, espeically on the draft thread.   And if things change or we are exposed to new data, we can admit we are wrong.  It's not that hard.   I own a business and If I am hiring employees, I don't like ones who don't learn from their mistakes and just dig down because of what they said-did before.  I prefer ones that a bit more Zen, hey I got this right, I got this wrong, here's what I learned from it.

 

So bringing this back to Howell, yeah I got no issue with those who have come around on him.   But those that are digging against the idea, I just hope they have an open mind if he gives indications that he's the right guy.  The 5th round status means nothing.  The fact that some draftniks thought Dotson could be had later in the draft means nothing.  The fact that Thor Nystrom or whomever saw Brian Robinson as a 5th rounder means nothing. 

 

IMO if people love football those that don't dive deeper should do so -- if they are giving strong opinions with conviction.  Not saying they will always nail it in those cases, sometimes they will, sometimes they won't -- but i think they'd feel much more vested in those takes and can dive deeper in conversation beyond the stuff about what round they were taken in, or where did Kiper have them ranked, or hey this other player taken in the same round or this other veteran was also signed in FA failed, too -- so this one will as well.

 

 

12 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That piece about Turner not being down with Wentz is a far cry from the reports last offseason of him clicking his heels with giddyness to finally be able to air it out.

 

I thought that was Zampese?  But back to Turner, it could be once he had the toy he got into it.  With me I've not loved every pick or FA signing but once they are gotten, I talk myself into it.

 

I don't doubt Standig, he's usually on the money but its possible Turner is giving his post firing spin. 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I thought that was Zampese?  But back to Turner, it could be once he had the toy he got into it.  With me I've not loved every pick or FA signing but once they are gotten, I talk myself into it.

 

I don't doubt Standig, he's usually on the money but its possible Turner is giving his post firing spin. 

Maybe it was, but the way Turner called games with Wentz was in line with the narrative.

 

But yeah, convenient that the first post-Scott firing tidbit is about how he didn’t want the QB that stunk.

[Warhead36]

Yeah I just don't buy it. Why is it just coming out NOW? We acquired Wentz back in March of last year. Ten months ago. Just super convenient timing. Probably Turner leaked that or had a buddy of his leak it to try to save his own rear. His offense is all about big arm QB making downfield throws. That was supposed to be Wentz's strong suit.

[KDawg]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Maybe it was, but the way Turner called games with Wentz was in line with the narrative.

 

But yeah, convenient that the first post-Scott firing tidbit is about how he didn’t want the QB that stunk.

Well, that still kind of aligns with it being a Snyder move, though, doesn’t it?

 

They get Wentz, Turner is jazzed according to the media. Why would be be jazzed? His boss wants him to be, or he thinks that’s what Snyder wants to hear. 
 

He gets fired, doesn’t care what Snyder thinks anymore and said it wasn’t what he wanted.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if Snyder is the one who wanted Turner gone. Or… that he wants Rivera out. Snyder didn’t want Ron to pull the trigger early because Snyder was going to inform Rivera he was out upon meeting (or at least discuss that) and Rivera pulled the trigger on Turner to give him a leg up. 
 

I admit, it’s sounds very conspiracy theory 101 but it wouldn’t surprise me. 
 

That theory would align with the “something serious in the building” narrative that Paulsen was pushing, too. If there’s any truth to that. 
 

We know there’s something inside that building connected to Paulsen because he regurgitated the rhetoric that Howell wasn’t ready prior to them leaking Heinicke was going to start the Dallas game. So whoever Paulsen’s source is seems very uncomfortable.

 

we’ll see soon how this all plays.

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

From what beat guys have said and JLC too, Rivera is pretty hands off of personnel.  So its the committee where things gets discussed.  Similar system when Gibbs returned with Gibbs having final say.  Similar systm with Bruce with Bruce-Dan having final say.

 

Spitballing some but piecing things togethe, i am guessing it was Mayhew that got hopped up about it and Dan pushed it.

 

I don't get the impression, even a little that Ron is the defacto top evaluator there or sees himself as that -- unlike for example Shanny who reports are did see himself as the defacto top evaluator when he was here and would overrule the personnel guys.

 

I'd imagine in which case the whole Ron outburst about watching the tape was him just protecting his guys. Either way Hurney seems to be the guy who knows how to fix the QB situation.

 

Fascinated to see what the setup will be under a new owner because I highly doubt there's gonna be 3 people in positions of seniority like Ron, Mayhew and Hurney

[Skinsinparadise]

Keim

 

A. They like Howell’s progression during the season in practice. Kept getting better and more comfortable. It’s not about that one gene but that he improved incrementally from the start of training camp. 

 

B. They are excited about him because in the Dallas game because he threw with anticipation. And led the Wrs with YAC which they didn’t see enough from the other QBs.  Ditto his delivery was good including follow through in tight pockets which is something they didn’t see the same from the others. 
 

C. It’s the progression of Howell that has them jazzed 

 

D. Right now he thinks they run with Howell with a cheapish veteran who might be Heinicke or another veteran competing 

 

E. It could change if an unexpected QB hits the market 

 

F. They like Carr and wanted him last off season. He knows they won’t trade for him now but not sure what they do if he’s released 

 

G. If not for Wentz, Howell was plan A in the draft. He was their guy. Keim heard that at the time so it’s not a hindsight drill 

 

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Captain James]

Some of yall bothered because I called Daniel Jones "capable?" That's the word I used. We haven't had even that around here for a minute. No one is arguing that he is great or the next Eli Manning.

[zCommander]

56 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

For anyone who wants to dig into to Howell some more this article is an incredible read.   It's worth the time IMO.   I read it before the previous draft, I had access to it via a subscription to Go Long because I can access McGinn's draft reporters via that vehicle.  But I reread it this weekend and got me jazzed.  Now I am almost @KDawg level jazzed to see how Howell pans out.

 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/sam-howell-wants-to-be-the-greatest

 

 

This right here is a great attitude to have: "Obviously I am so confident in who I am, and my game, that I think I’m the best quarterback in the NFL already."

 

The last time I remember a QB so sure of themselves is when Brady was drafted he went up to Kraft and told him 'You’ll never regret picking me.' At the time I thought what an arrogant thing to say for someone who was selected in the 6th round and probably won't even see the field. The rest is history of course. 

 

Brady believed in himself more than anyone else did. 

 

Howell projected to go in the 1st round but didn't will have a chip on his shoulder too. Can't wait.

[Andre The Giant]

1 hour ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

Having an OC and a QB not on the same page is criminal, it will always end in tears.

This is very similar to when Skins traded for McNabb.  OC Kyle Shanahan really didn’t want him, they made the trade anyway. 
 

Snyder has many flaws, one of which is that he repeats mistakes, again and again and again…

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, Captain James said:

Some of yall bothered because I called Daniel Jones "capable?" That's the word I used. We haven't had even that around here for a minute. No one is arguing that he is great or the next Eli Manning.

Worse yet. You’re right. And it’s odd people are happy that the Giants have a capable quarterback who owns us on a routine basis.

[NickyJ]

Yeah, I dunno how much I'd believe hot takes about a fired coordinator, coming from an unnamed source who completely isn't the fired coordinator, straight off the bat a single weekend after that coordinator was fired. I don't think it's hard to believe that the team was willing to buy into Anybody But Heinicke, then have buyer's remorse later when it turns out they picked a dud.

 

  

3 minutes ago, zCommander said:

This right here is a great attitude to have: "Obviously I am so confident in who I am, and my game, that I think I’m the best quarterback in the NFL already."

 

The last time I remember a QB so sure of themselves is when Brady was drafted he went up to Kraft and told him 'You’ll never regret picking me.' At the time I thought what an arrogant thing to say for someone who was selected in the 6th round and probably won't even see the field. The rest is history of course. 

 

Brady believed in himself more than anyone else did. 

 

Howell projected to go in the 1st round but didn't will have a chip on his shoulder too. Can't wait.

I like Howell and hope he succeeds, but I wouldn't bet too much of my life's savings on him just because he's confident in himself. We've had confident QBs before.

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by NickyJ

[CobraCommander]

 A LOT of people thought Haskins was going to be better than Danny Dimes. It's only natural to think the guy on your team is better. People don't like to be wrong. 

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

 A LOT of people thought Haskins was going to be better than Danny Dimes. It's only natural to think the guy on your team is better. People don't like to be wrong. 

I wasn’t high on Haskins at all and I thought that, too. I was wrong.