The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[FLSkinz83]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

What do you think Heinicke’s actual weaknesses are. Be naughty for a minute and indulge 

 

His obvious physical limitations.  He's not a good decision maker with the read option.   He's not consistent with accuracy, but I'm not sure how much of that is him and how much that is the pass pro.  When you're consistently getting pressured, you're going to be inaccurate.

[NeverSurrender]

1 hour ago, Wafers said:

I think the coaches have seen enough (even only in six games) of Wentz to know Wentz is done as a NFL starter.  The winning under TH is actually preventing us from seeing Howell.  If we are out of playoff, Howell will play.

I have no problem with this.

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This really sounds like you are saying he sucks as much as the rest of us.  🤣

 

Yeah this is getting odd. 

 

"He doesn't sense pressure well, he misses reads, he has a weak arm, his accuracy is inconsistent, he needs to run more"

 

"So...he basically sucks?"

 

"On advice from my legal counsel I am invoking my fifth amendment right to protect against ES self-incrimination"

Edited December 22, 2022 by mistertim

[FLSkinz83]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

He doesn't though. That's a paranoid perception.

 

But even if he did... He's the quarterback. You notice who many fans and analysts give credit to for the winning streak? I'll give you a hint: Taylor Heinicke.

 

If you are cool with the kudos you have to also be cool with the backlash.

 

The truth is that the team itself is responsible for the record. And while Taylor deserves some credit and blame, he's not the sole culprit. But he's the captain of the ship.

 

I agree the QB gets too much credit and too much blame.   I don't think he was the primary reason for the turnaround this season.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

but I'm not sure how much of that is him and how much that is the pass pro.  When you're consistently getting pressured, you're going to be inaccurate.

Or when you are tiny and have a weak arm, you need to be able to full torque into every throw for any chance of an accurate pass?

[FLSkinz83]

Just now, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Or when you are tiny and have a weak arm, you need to be able to full torque into every throw for any chance of an accurate pass?

 

Why are we arguing about things TH can't control?   Yes he's tiny and has arm limitations.  I don't think it's a noodle arm like most seem to think, but it's clearly not quality starting QB level.

 

I'm arguing for things that we can control...a better O-Coordinator and better pass pro.   I think it's a lot easier to fix these issues than to find a top 15 QB.

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Why are we arguing about things TH can't control?   Yes he's tiny and has arm limitations.  I don't think it's a noodle arm like most seem to think, but it's clearly not quality starting QB level.

 

I'm arguing for things that we can control...a better O-Coordinator and better pass pro.   I think it's a lot easier to fix these issues than to find a top 15 QB.

We can also control fielding a better QB.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Why are we arguing about things TH can't control?   Yes he's tiny and has arm limitations.  I don't think it's a noodle arm like most seem to think, but it's clearly not quality starting QB level.

 

I'm arguing for things that we can control...a better O-Coordinator and better pass pro.   I think it's a lot easier to fix these issues than to find a top 15 QB.

I’m saying that you are basically asking for a perfect OC and OL to have any chance of scoring points with Heinicke.  It’s not realistic at all.  That and you are overlooking what he does cook up to make Heinicke look remotely palatable.

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I’m saying that you are basically asking for a perfect OC and OL to have any chance of scoring points with Heinicke.  It’s not realistic at all.  That and you are overlooking what he does cook up to make Heinicke look remotely palatable.

 

Don't forget the part about also requiring a defense that keeps every other team's offense below 20 points every game in order for us to even have a chance at winning.

Edited December 22, 2022 by mistertim

[FLSkinz83]

58 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

So then tell us what you blame him for. It's like pulling teeth to get Heinicke fans to point out anything that he did wrong without equivocating or blaming it at least partially on something else. 

 

He gets partial  blame for the 2nd fumble.   He gets blame for a few bad throws, including the one that should have been an INT in the end zone.   He also gets blame for some bad zone read decisions.   

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

He gets partial  blame for the 2nd fumble.   He gets blame for a few bad throws, including the one that should have been an INT in the end zone.   He also gets blame for some bad zone read decisions.   

He gets PARTIAL blame for the second fumble?

 

Okay, you are the worst troll in troll history. It’s not even believable at this point.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, KDawg said:

He gets PARTIAL blame for the second fumble?

 

Okay, you are the worst troll in troll history. It’s not even believable at this point.

Scott Turner should have told him to protect the ball in his headset.

[FLSkinz83]

5 minutes ago, KDawg said:

We can also control fielding a better QB.

 

Ok, but who under the current set up?     Remember, if you get a Jimmy G or a Derek Carr type, you'll be paying them probably an extra 20 mil per; which means losing 3-4 starters.

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

He gets PARTIAL blame for the second fumble?

 

Okay, you are the worst troll in troll history. It’s not even believable at this point.

 

Maybe you missed it, but there was immediate pressure on the play.   

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Scott Turner should have told him to protect the ball in his headset.

 

No, Scott should have run Robinson on 1st down instead of Samuel.  

[KDawg]

2 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Ok, but who under the current set up?     Remember, if you get a Jimmy G or a Derek Carr type, you'll be paying them probably an extra 20 mil per; which means losing 3-4 starters.

 

Maybe you missed it, but there was immediate pressure on the play.   

 

You know, I'm actually close to putting you on ignore.

 

I didn't miss anything. Our OL stinks. 

 

But it's the QB's responsibility to hold on to the football. Fumbles fall on them. Sometimes even more than interceptions. I'm not sure why this even needs to be explained. 

 

Also, the solution is to try Howell. We don't know that he is better (or worse). But we do know Heinicke is limited and Wentz needs to get released due to cap hit. If that doesn't make any sense to you at all I'm not sure having conversations with you is remotely prudent. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

4 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

No, Scott should have run Robinson on 1st down instead of Samuel. 

I stubbed my toe this morning, Scott Turner should have slid the bed over an inch.

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

He gets partial  blame for the 2nd fumble.   

 

You should go back and watch that play again. He had room to run to his right but couldn't make it. Then he tries to push the defender with his left hand and exposing the football. This is when he should have just tucked the ball instead and taken the sack since he was not going to able to throw it away. Sometimes you have to give up the hero ball mentality. I know it is hard for him to do that since he likes to make something out of nothing. But smarter play would have been just to take a sack like man since you are in the redzone and can't afford to lose the ball and take away at least 3 points off the baord. So full blame on this fumble. 

[FLSkinz83]

17 minutes ago, KDawg said:

But it's the QB's responsibility to hold on to the football. Fumbles fall on them. Sometimes even more than interceptions. I'm not sure why this even needs to be explained. 

 

I don't agree with this so let's just agree to disagree.    This isn't a TH take.  I would say that about any QB regarding fumbles.  

15 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

You should go back and watch that play again. He had room to run to his right but couldn't make it. Then he tries to push the defender with his left hand and exposing the football. This is when he should have just tucked the ball instead and taken the sack since he was not going to able to throw it away. Sometimes you have to give up the hero ball mentality. I know it is hard for him to do that since he likes to make something out of nothing. But smarter play would have been just to take a sack like man since you are in the redzone and can't afford to lose the ball and take away at least 3 points off the baord. So full blame on this fumble. 

 

I hear what you're saying, but......it was 3rd down with 6 minutes left in the 4th and We're down 5.   If it was 1st or 2nd down, if it was earlier in the game, if it was a 3 point game or less; then I would put more blame on him.   I'm not absolving him of any blame.  He needed to do better to protect the ball, but I understand him trying to make a play in that situation and it all started with Trai Turner getting beat up the middle.

[ntotoro]

41 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Scott Turner should have told him to protect the ball in his headset.

 

It's Ron's fault for not telling him that they needed better RZ scoring until the next day.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

16 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

I don't agree with this so let's just agree to disagree.    This isn't a TH take.  I would say that about any QB regarding fumbles.  

 

I hear what you're saying, but......it was 3rd down with 6 minutes left in the 4th and We're down 5.   If it was 1st or 2nd down, if it was earlier in the game, if it was a 3 point game or less; then I would put more blame on him.   I'm not absolving him of any blame.  He needed to do better to protect the ball, but I understand him trying to make a play in that situation and it all started with Trai Turner getting beat up the middle.

What. It’s a 5 point game with 6 mins. A field goal gets us within 2. Then we rely on our defense. That’s a crazy take. He didn’t need the TD there. 

[FLSkinz83]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Do Itch Big said:

What. It’s a 5 point game with 6 mins. A field goal gets us within 2. Then we rely on our defense. That’s a crazy take. He didn’t need the TD there. 

 

as it turned out that FG would have meant nothing anyway since we would have needed at TD at the end 

Edited December 22, 2022 by FLSkinz83

[skinny21]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah this is getting odd. 

 

"He doesn't sense pressure well, he misses reads, he has a weak arm, he needs to run more"

 

"So...he basically sucks?"

 

"On advice from my legal counsel I am invoking my fifth amendment right to protect against ES self-incrimination"

He’s played poorly (for the most part), not sure why you’re acting like I’m avoiding saying that?

8 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This really sounds like you are saying he sucks as much as the rest of us.  🤣

Pretty much.  The difference seems to be that I’m trying to avoid the hyperbole, and I’m willing to place some blame in other places as well - such as - in this game - Terry’s penalty, some of Turner’s play calling, and poor pass pro (and even the refs at times).

 

He deserves plenty of blame, without a doubt.  As I’ve said repeatedly though, when I do defend TH, it’s not from people that say he’s a bad qb, it’s from comments that are (IMO) overly harsh, or lack context… like saying he “gave” the other team 7 points when he was blindsided.  Or saying he plays badly for 58 minutes (we all see the problem with that statement… right?).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[FLSkinz83]

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

He’s played poorly (for the most part), not sure why you’re acting like I’m avoiding saying that?

Pretty much.  The difference seems to be that I’m trying to avoid the hyperbole, and I’m willing to place some blame in other places as well - such as - in this game - Terry’s penalty, some of Turner’s play calling, and poor pass pro (and even the refs at times).

 

He deserves plenty of blame, without a doubt.  As I’ve said repeatedly though, when I do defend TH, it’s not from people that say he’s a bad qb, it’s from comments that are (IMO) overly harsh, or lack context… like saying he “gave” the other team 7 points when he was blindsided.  Or saying he plays badly for 58 minutes (we all see the problem with that statement… right?).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is what I've been trying to say/do.  You might be doing a better job at it.   

[GoDeep81]

So, what's the consensus on what it'll take to see Wentz this week? No points at half?  But what if it's close, like 0-7 or 3-10? Maybe a 14 point deficit? Something else? On the one hand, seeing Wentz would be good for the future, regardless of outcome. On the other, a full game from TH means we may win? Damned if you do, damned if you don't. (this may be off topic for this thread. Just ignore/delete if so) 

[Jumbo]

3 hours ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

It's more a criticism of  Scott and the pass pro than a defense of TH.  At least it is for me.  

 

You're purpose here is to put lipstick on him as subtly as you can and working to seem somewhat balanced so you can keep doing your shtick. 

 

You've already had two rule violations from two mods since you joined last February and you trying hard to camouflage when necessary so you can continue this role.

 

It's been your m.o. since you arrived. 

[ntotoro]

If the team goes into the half behind and it's a game typical of Heiney in the last three games, Wentz starts the third. Otherwise, I think Heiney stays in. I could also see Wentz come in if the game is a D-slogfest and Heiney is leaving a lot out there on the field.

 

Edit: Which would still be a typical Heiney game LOL!

Edited December 22, 2022 by ntotoro