The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[El Mexican]

21 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

2019...*sigh*

 

"2nd play of the season"...*sigh*

 

This thread, man...

 

Funny thing is the O-Line is no better since then 😕

21 hours ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

Uh……2019 case keenum was our QB to start the season….and he definitely didn’t break his hip on the 2nd play of the season, or even in the first game (or even at all that season in the games he did start), and I don’t think he had a beard. 
 

Were you thinking of Ryan Fitzpatrick, in 2021, on like the 10th play of the game? (Not sure how many plays into the game it happened, but still)? 2021 and 2019 are two completely different years 😂

 

Ok 2021 then. Sorry.

 

Those years just fog up in my mind.

[El Mexican]

1 hour ago, dc1 said:

Tony Banks made me laugh out loud every time he stepped on the field. Straight up Mark Sanchez vibs but ..more scared if that makes sense (edit: deer in headlights maybe a better analogy).

 

Rob (straight back) Johnson...I was kind of cool with that dude.

 

Banks was a good fit for MartyBall.

Finished 8-8 even with him despite the disastrous start of the season with George at the helm. 

 

Control the clock and give it to Davis. Long pass here and there. Stout D. Seemed like a good plan to everybody. Except Snyder.

 

12 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Taylor ranks 32nd in the Red Zone.

 

Yes, but doesn't that reflect a better running game recently?

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

31 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

Yes, but doesn't that reflect a better running game recently?

It’s based on his performance as a passer in the red zone.

[dc1]

20 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

 

Banks was a good fit for MartyBall.

 

Control the clock and give it to Davis. Long pass here and there. Stout D. Seemed like a good plan to everybody. Except Snyder.

 

 

Snyder would have loved to get a Marty do-over. 

 

Winning is very hard in the NFL.  Recovering an 8-8 season that year was even harder.

 

Years and years of trying it his way.  Here's hoping that Bezos doesn't need to go through the same process.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 hours ago, skins island connection said:

 Whatever the OC calls for a play is what TH has to do. I doubt he's given full authority to option out of a play called, then factor in what the defense is showing vs what they end up in at the snap, and there's other factors that weigh in as well. 

This is exactly what I’m referring to.  
 

A bunch of excuses for Taylor’s lack of red zone success.  If he was solid in the red zone, we’d be talking about extending him as a potential franchise QB.  He’s not solid in the red zone because it’s tough to score down there, and when you don’t have the physical tools to make all the throws it’s a lot harder. 
 

That’s not knocking him - it’s just reality.
 

5 hours ago, skins island connection said:

and there will be some who want to point the finger at TH, and they're just not being realistic. If he goes on a stink the next 4 or 5 games then yes blame can be put his way, but winning 4 of last 5 is not bad regardless of opponent.

If this team misses the playoffs, the likely reason is TH.  Again, that’s not knocking him - most teams aren’t making the playoffs with their backup QB.  It’s possible the defense and running game can carry the QB, it’s just not likely.  But make no mistake about it, if somehow this team makes the playoffs it will be as a result of the defense and running game leading the way.
 

 

 

[Koolblue13]

10 hours ago, CjSuAvE22 said:

I dunno during games in the gameday thread ppl want us to run playaction rollout plays, I saw us run that a few times last game and heinicke did not look good rolling out and throwing he looked extremely uncomfortable it seems he needs plays that are in front of him and if he scrambled it’s for gaining some yardage as opposed to looking downfield and tossing it 

The roll out think is something Heinicke apologists say to make it seem like Turner is the problem and not the QB, even though roll outs take more effort to set and throw, which is something Taylor sucks at without running first.;

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It’s based on his performance as a passer in the red zone.

The team who is almost always gonna gonna run it because of the QB, has the QB with the worst win percentage in the red zone.

[FootballZombie]

I just watched a 24 y.o. dough-boy who everyone agrees does not possess the physical tools to ever be an elite QB have 10x more trust and faith put into him by his coaching staff than I have ever seen Scott put into TH.

 

The Patriots, by gameplan design, just marched out a dude who's name is McCorkle to the tune of 42 pass attempts to 13 rush attempts.

It's not even like the run game wasn't working, Stevenson was avg 5.1 YPC.

 

 

It is insulting to my eyes to have to watch TH play every week. It is sad the coaches have to run a player they don't even believe in and work diligently to minimize his impact.

Mac Jones is not some great QB, but at least his staff has enough faith in him to let him do QB things from time to time. We don't even have that right now.

Edited November 25, 2022 by FootballZombie

[Going Commando]

The same Mac Jones who played an entire game last season and won, attempting three passes?  They threw the ball a bunch last night and got away from the run and lost.  That is a bizarre attempt to try and dunk on Heinicke.

[Going Commando]

On 11/23/2022 at 4:10 PM, Califan007 The Constipated said:

Our backups are taking over the league lol...

 

Damn, my dude has a neck.  He'd be like 6'1 with a normal neck.

 

Don't know whether to be insulted or flattered that losing to us tends to get everyone fired or benched.  I actually thought Ron was pretty gracious and we clearly took our foot off the gas in a game that was never in doubt so that we wouldn't embarrass Ron's old mentor and expose him as a horrible coach.  Their team sucks this year, was unprepared, couldn't get anything blocked against us, needs to fully suss out what they have with Mills, and doesn't have a season to save or a better option behind him to play. What's the point of benching Mills?

[Going Commando]

22 hours ago, KDawg said:

Griffin is projecting his feelings for his career into the Heinicke/Wilson thing. That’s all that is. 

 

Struck a nerve when he heard Ron say the team just plays better with Taylor at QB because that is almost exactly what Jay Gruden said about Kirk when he benched RGIII.  RGIII is wrong about never hearing coaches talk like that about QBs, because I've heard it before at least once.

 

It is kind of weird though how history rhymes.  Former second overall pick takes the league by storm, tears up his knee and is never the same again, tries to come back and gets an injury that takes him out, loses his starting job to an unheralded back up as a result.  Tough business.  In this case Carson had to be perfect in order to get his job back because we are so strongly incentivized not to play him in order to keep the second rounder.  In retrospect, that condition of the trade set Carson up to fail here, particularly if he had any kind of injury that took him off the field.

[zCommander]

7 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

It is insulting to my eyes to have to watch TH play every week. 

 

Then stop watching! No one is forcing you. Taylor doesn't give a **** about your insulted eyes, by the way.

[Tress Is The Way]

7 hours ago, FootballZombie said:

I just watched a 24 y.o. dough-boy who everyone agrees does not possess the physical tools to ever be an elite QB have 10x more trust and faith put into him by his coaching staff than I have ever seen Scott put into TH.

 

The Patriots, by gameplan design, just marched out a dude who's name is McCorkle to the tune of 42 pass attempts to 13 rush attempts.

It's not even like the run game wasn't working, Stevenson was avg 5.1 YPC.

 

 

It is insulting to my eyes to have to watch TH play every week. It is sad the coaches have to run a player they don't even believe in and work diligently to minimize his impact.

Mac Jones is not some great QB, but at least his staff has enough faith in him to let him do QB things from time to time. We don't even have that right now.

Man talk about bitter.. The coaches don't have any faith in him? Are you smoking crack? You must be smoking crack.

[tmandoug1]

Stop......here is what we do. We all agree that TH is not the QB of the future but maybe Howell is. Howell scored extremely high on his wonderlic score, that plus his arm and mobility should in theory make him the better QB. The one question is work ethic, does he do the things he should be doing during the week and game day? If he does then when Heiny loses badly or gets broken because of the Oline Howell should start. If he doesn't get the nod then he isn't doing what he should be doing and that will be is downfall. 

 

 If Heiny is so atrocious that the OC can only use half his playbook and doesn't trust him then why are they playing him? He sucks so bad that they aren't willing to switch to Wentz or try Howell? Makes no sense to me. Pretty sure either of those two can put up better numbers than TH right? Not sure the defense gives a **** on who is playing QB so why is he starting? Mind boggling for sure....

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

 

2 minutes ago, tmandoug1 said:

If Heiny is so atrocious that the OC can only use half his playbook and doesn't trust him then why are they playing him? He sucks so bad that they aren't willing to switch to Wentz or try Howell? Makes no sense to me. Pretty sure either of those two can put up better numbers than TH right? Not sure the defense gives a **** on who is playing QB so why is he starting? Mind boggling for sure...

They are playing him because Operation Hide Heinicke has resulted in wins, and you don’t mess with mojo.

 

I’m sure both Ron and Scott would prefer to go down swinging with Wentz.  I’m not saying that’s the correct move, because he didn’t look great in this system behind this OL.  But they traded for and paid the guy $28M to throw the ball around the yard.  They told anyone who would listen that this is not how they want to play football and are stuck doing it again.  I’m certain that when and if these games go the other way, Ron will move swiftly to Wentz.

 

 

[NoCalMike]

On 11/24/2022 at 5:44 AM, zCommander said:

 

I want to circle back to this and something Califan said that made me think as well. If Taylor gets the team to the redzone and we run in for a TD that is still a TD but not a throwing TD. It won't show up on the stat sheet as a thrown TD by Taylor. He is a game manager with moxie so to speak. The end result is still a TD doesn't matter who scores as long as the TEAM wins and to me that is the most important stat at the end of the day. 

 

The whole purpose of a a good drive is to end with a TD. I will take it however it comes all the way to the playoffs if possible. 

 

But that is why I specifically said red zone offense (in general) and not passing TDs.  I don't care how they score more TDs, but they need to do start doing it because the team is getting to the point where they are statistically and physically dominating teams but the scoreboard isn't reflecting it, and regardless of opponent, every game is coming down to the defense playing near perfect and whether Slye misses a FG or two.   

 

I am not putting the entire issue of red zone offense on Heinicke, but I do absolutely think there is merit to the idea that when the field of play gets smaller, and you have to make throws with specific velocity and preciseness,, a physically limited QB might have less success in that area.  If it means they have to run the ball more inside the 10, like those jet sweeps with Samuel? So be it....but I think this lack of getting into the endzone will hurt the team trying to get to the *next level*

[Warhead36]

Turner also isn't a very creative playcaller inside the 5 yard line. You rarely see McLaurin isolations or anything like that.

[Going Commando]

22 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Turner also isn't a very creative playcaller inside the 5 yard line. You rarely see McLaurin isolations or anything like that.

 

Yeah he does some of his worst work as a play caller in goal to go series.

 

It's hard for any QB to find lanes to throw into RZ zones, but those aren't really the kinds of throws Taylor struggles with.  Much more likely to see him float and sail downfield throws that are much longer than the distances you throw in the RZ.

 

One of the things that has been true for decades about NFL offense is that the most consistent and efficient RZ offenses tend to achieve that efficiency primarily through their run game.  Go back to those Mike Holmgren Seattle offenses led by Steve Hutchinson, Walter Jones, and Shaun Alexander just dominating in the Red Zone to get a picture of the ultimate RZ offense and that's the ideal.  Being able to win consistently against a heavy box is the way.  And supplementing that, then you want big targets like TEs or king sized receivers plucking the ball in traffic and able to make plays on those us or nobody throws you have to launch.

 

Those are not really ingredients we possess yet.  Our OL is weak, especially with Cosmi missing so much of the season, and 5'11 Jahan Dotson is our best red zone player, and he also missed a ton of time.  So has Logan Thomas, who is really our only other credible RZ target.  Putting our red zone woes entirely on Taylor isn't fair, and expecting efficiency from our RZ offense is unrealistic, no matter the QB.

[mistertim]

23 hours ago, NeverSurrender said:

But then what if they fix the redzone issues?

 

What if I woke up tomorrow and was suddenly a 6'3 fitness model who drove a Ferrari? I mean, we can throw out any sorts of rando "what ifs"

 

The main issues with the red zone passing game are probably based on Heinicke's physical limitations. You combine a weak arm with a compressed/crowded field and the results aren't favorable. TH's physical limitations aren't going to suddenly change.

[NeverSurrender]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

What if I woke up tomorrow and was suddenly a 6'3 fitness model who drove a Ferrari? I mean, we can throw out any sorts of rando "what ifs"

 

The main issues with the red zone passing game are probably based on Heinicke's physical limitations. You combine a weak arm with a compressed/crowded field and the results aren't favorable. TH's physical limitations aren't going to suddenly change.

I just dont buy that TH is the ONLY reason were not finishing in the red zone.  He is a part of it but I think the play calling has been bad and our O-line hasnt played well at times down there.  I dont think you need a rifle arm to score in the red zone.  You dont want to throw lazers to your receivers at close range, it all comes down to play calling and execution like everything else in football.  If they execute better and get some good play calling.  There will be a lot of bewildered TH haters here.  Its definitely something they can fix.

[Zim489]

Having arguably the smallest WR corp in the league doesnt help either. 

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

I just dont buy that TH is the ONLY reason were not finishing in the red zone.  He is a part of it but I think the play calling has been bad and our O-line hasnt played well at times down there.  I dont think you need a rifle arm to score in the red zone.  You dont want to throw lazers to your receivers at close range, it all comes down to play calling and execution like everything else in football.  If they execute better and get some good play calling.  There will be a lot of bewildered TH haters here.  Its definitely something they can fix.

 

I didn't say Heinicke's physical limitations is the ONLY reason (in lowercase or caps). I said I think it's the main issue. Our OL hasn't been any different in the red zone than any other area of the field. You don't have to have a cannon to score in the red zone, but a weak arm is absolutely a hindrance due to the compressed field and having more defenders in a smaller area.

 

I think the red zone play calling mostly reflects the fact that Turner knows Heinicke's limitations and is game planning around them. Which is what an OC is supposed to do. Turner certainly isn't perfect but I think he's mostly doing the best with what he has and has been able to get pretty good results with a limited QB.

[88Comrade2000]

2 years from now, doubtful any of our QBs are on the roster.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Beyond lack of arm strength, he’s just not that accurate to begin with.  Accuracy helps in tight space like the red zone.

 

Of course we aren’t the Hogs, where we can just barrel over the opposition and run it in either.  I thought that was a given.  I mean while we are running it a bazillion times a game, it’s not like we are breaking big gains on the ground with any type of regularity.  We aren’t nickel and diming, we are penny and nickeling.

 

Scott Turner is not a hill I’m willing to die on, that’s for damn sure.  But it makes no sense to me to see him catching bullets for Taylor, considering the lengths in which he has changed the offense to work within the confines of what Taylor can do.  I hear all the time about how coaches won’t do x, y and z and that they should adjust to the talent they have.  Nobody has done that better than Scott Turner with TH.  There is only but so much one can dial up with the horses we’ve got in our stable.  

Edited November 25, 2022 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[NeverSurrender]

3 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I didn't say Heinicke's physical limitations is the ONLY reason (in lowercase or caps). I said I think it's the main issue. Our OL hasn't been any different in the red zone than any other area of the field. You don't have to have a cannon to score in the red zone, but a weak arm is absolutely a hindrance due to the compressed field and having more defenders in a smaller area.

 

I think the red zone play calling mostly reflects the fact that Turner knows Heinicke's limitations and is game planning around them. Which is what an OC is supposed to do. Turner certainly isn't perfect but I think he's mostly doing the best with what he has and has been able to get pretty good results with a limited QB.

You did say it was the main issue though.  Which I think is wrong, there a a lot of issues as I just mentioned.  Running in the redzone is huge, our O-line gets very little push.  Both Gibson and Robinson have insane yards after contact this year.  Also, our complete inability to run screen plays is a massive hindrance in the redzone as teams do seem to blitz more when we get down there.  I think THs arm effects the deep ball in a non congested field, say when were at midfield in that he cant challenge the defenses and push the deep middle.  However, playing small ball suits him much better, he makes quick reads and has a pretty quick release.  As I said before this is something that should be fixed and has very little to do with THs limitations.  It is popular to here to blame it on TH though so I can see why you would have that opinion but if you really think about it, it dosent make sense.  I have said this before, if they fix that issue and continue to run the ball well we will be a big problem for teams to deal with.

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, NeverSurrender said:

You did say it was the main issue though.  Which I think is wrong, there a a lot of issues as I just mentioned.  Running in the redzone is huge, our O-line gets very little push.  Both Gibson and Robinson have insane yards after contact this year.  Also, our complete inability to run screen plays is a massive hindrance in the redzone as teams do seem to blitz more when we get down there.  I think THs arm effects the deep ball in a non congested field, say when were at midfield in that he cant challenge the defenses and push the deep middle.  However, playing small ball suits him much better, he makes quick reads and has a pretty quick release.  As I said before this is something that should be fixed and has very little to do with THs limitations.  It is popular to here to blame it on TH though so I can see why you would have that opinion but if you really think about it, it dosent make sense.  I have said this before, if they fix that issue and continue to run the ball well we will be a big problem for teams to deal with.

 

I did really think about it and it does make sense, and I'm hardly the only person it makes sense to. You just don't like it because you like Heinicke.