The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[NoCalMike]

If they decide to stick with Heinicke, the question becomes how long is his leash?  The way he is playing, it feels like every game is as close to being a loss as it is a win and vice versa.  The Vikings & Eagles games are both microcosms of what you get with Heinicke. I think through 10 weeks it is fair to see that regardless of the QB under center this season, the sheer amount of playmaking skill position players on this team are too plentiful to only be scoring the amount of points they are every week.  So taking that into account, it doesn't seem like Heinicke is doing much to progress the offense, in contrast, it seems more that Scott Turner realizes that behind this O-line, the run game is needed and heavily, to anchor the offense (along with the defense and no mistakes on special teams) and even if Wentz returns next week or the following week (or at any point) I don't see any reason to deviate much off the run-heavy time of possession offense, but Wentz would also add some other elements there to be used when appropriate. 

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, Hooper said:

I think you'd be putting Wentz in a terrible position if you start him this week. 

 

See how Taylor does and go from there.

 

And if you make the change, you better be ready to go back to Taylor quick.

 

Clearly the team prefers Taylor. Ron needs to be careful.

 

Curious why you say that in that Houston is worst team left on our schedule right now.

 

I never hear anyone talk about what that Wentz we saw against the Jaguars would look like on the team we are seeing now.

 

I have to know if that was a mirage or not, that's why he's here. Can always go back to Taylor if he stinks it up against Houston, I won't even argue against it after what jus happened tonight.

[NickyJ]

8 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Curious why you say that in that Houston is worst team left on our schedule right now.

 

I never hear anyone talk about what that Wentz we saw against the Jaguars would look like on the team we are seeing now.

 

I have to know if that was a mirage or not, that's why he's here. Can always go back to Taylor if he stinks it up against Houston, I won't even argue against it after what jus happened tonight.

It's a terrible position because if the team drops an easy one like it always does, it'll be while benching a QB who just beat an undefeated team. You reward people who win, and Heinicke won. I've complained about ugly games from Heinicke, and today he had some of those moments again, but Heinicke played his heart out and saved the game in a few of those moments too. In my heart, I know Heinicke isn't the answer, but I also know in my heart that you can't take the job away from a player after all he did to beat an undefeated team.

Edited November 15, 2022 by NickyJ

[petey hodge]

1 minute ago, NickyJ said:

 to beat an undefeated team.

 

on the road... on Monday Night...

[NoCalMike]

Ok how about this scenario:

 

A healthy Wentz is the back up on the sideline and Heinicke has a terrible 1st half against the Texans (or maybe Falcons if Wentz isn't even healthy enough for Texans game).  Do you make the switch at halftime back to Wentz if the game is still looking winnable or do you roll the dice and let Heinicke try to work his way out of the funk?

[CjSuAvE22]

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Ok how about this scenario:

 

A healthy Wentz is the back up on the sideline and Heinicke has a terrible 1st half against the Texans (or maybe Falcons if Wentz isn't even healthy enough for Texans game).  Do you make the switch at halftime back to Wentz if the game is still looking winnable or do you roll the dice and let Heinicke try to work his way out of the funk?

If down by more than 13 pts I think put wentz if less then that gotta see if moxie can sure things up 

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

It's a terrible position because if the team drops an easy one like it always does, it'll be while benching a QB who just beat an undefeated team. You reward people who win, and Heinicke won. I've complained about ugly games from Heinicke, and today he had some of those moments again, but Heinicke played his heart out and saved the game in a few of those moments too. In my heart, I know Heinicke isn't the answer, but I also know in my heart that you can't take the job away from a player after all he did to beat an undefeated team.

 

All this about what he did gets to a point of taking credit from the rest of the team.

 

It's not like he threw for 400 yards today, we ran 50 times for a reason.

 

Our defense also got 4 turnovers today, Taylor was responsible for both of ours.

 

A comment asked why didn't we put Taylor in to start the season, like we'd win more games.  That comment, not yours, feels prisoner of the moment and not following how the team has changed since say the Lions game. 

 

We didn't have Curl, WJ3 was still starting, we didn't have Robinson yet at RB, We had a 4th string center, a lot has changed since we were 2-4 outside jus the QB playing. 

 

A lot.

[NickyJ]

Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

All this about what he did gets to a point of taking credit from the rest of the team.

 

It's not like he threw for 400 yards today, we ran 50 times for a reason.

 

Our defense also got 4 turnovers today, Taylor was responsible for both of ours.

 

A comment asked why didn't we put Taylor in to start the season, like we'd win more games.  That comment, not yours, feels prisoner of the moment and not following how the team has changed since say the Lions game. 

 

We didn't have Curl, WJ3 was still starting, we didn't have Robinson yet at RB, We had a 4th string center, a lot has changed since we were 2-4 outside jus the QB playing. 

 

A lot.

Believe me, I feel the same about Taylor being a liability. But at the same time, you have to read the (locker) room. The room says they believe in Heinicke, and it's hard to deny that they play differently with him, even if Taylor himself plays ugly. But after the biggest win of the season, it's an extremely hard sell to tell the team "that's still not good enough". If Heinicke flops with the Texans, pull him and leave the players with no regrets. But at this point, I don't think Wentz can really fit with the team anymore. If Heinicke loses, we're probably toast, which means I'd rather have Howell start and see what we've got in him.

[Peregrine]

26 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

If they decide to stick with Heinicke, the question becomes how long is his leash?  The way he is playing, it feels like every game is as close to being a loss as it is a win and vice versa.  The Vikings & Eagles games are both microcosms of what you get with Heinicke. I think through 10 weeks it is fair to see that regardless of the QB under center this season, the sheer amount of playmaking skill position players on this team are too plentiful to only be scoring the amount of points they are every week.  So taking that into account, it doesn't seem like Heinicke is doing much to progress the offense, in contrast, it seems more that Scott Turner realizes that behind this O-line, the run game is needed and heavily, to anchor the offense (along with the defense and no mistakes on special teams) and even if Wentz returns next week or the following week (or at any point) I don't see any reason to deviate much off the run-heavy time of possession offense, but Wentz would also add some other elements there to be used when appropriate. 

Hes won 4 out of 5.  His leash should be really freakin' long at this point, based on the QB play for this team for the past decade.  Every win people have to moan about not having Mahomes.  Every win is another reason to criticize.  Every time TH doesnt fit the narrative for how godlike people think this offense is supposed to be under the amazing hands of Scott Turner its back to the last QB who was terrible.  To making up and imagining a QB the players dont like, dont want, dont respect, replacing the QB they love right now.  Amazing to have every bit of over-achieving turned into imaginary-failure no matter how many great moments you give a "fanbase".

 

If you want statistics, go play fantasy football.

[Renegade7]

18 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

Believe me, I feel the same about Taylor being a liability. But at the same time, you have to read the (locker) room. The room says they believe in Heinicke, and it's hard to deny that they play differently with him, even if Taylor himself plays ugly. But after the biggest win of the season, it's an extremely hard sell to tell the team "that's still not good enough". If Heinicke flops with the Texans, pull him and leave the players with no regrets. But at this point, I don't think Wentz can really fit with the team anymore. If Heinicke loses, we're probably toast, which means I'd rather have Howell start and see what we've got in him.

 

Man...I'm glad im not paid millions of dollars to make this decision.

 

Because you sound like you've written Wentz off and from listening to Taylor and McLaurin today and Rivera this week, I don't hear a mutinity coming from the incoming reality Ron is gonna start Wentz against Houston anyway.

 

You don't start who you like the most, you start who gives you beat chance to win games, Ron wouldn't even entertain the discussion of starting Wentz again if he thought he was done or team would turn on him if he did that.

 

Bring this home...Foles won Philly the Super Bowl and Wentz was still the starter the following season.  Foles has not looked like a Super Bowl winning QB anywhere except Philly.  Eagles didn't turn that team over to Foles, they waited until they felt that had a better long term answers and Hurts to move Wentz, and were sure that was the right thing to do.  Hurts is better now then Foles has ever been, they were right.

Edited November 15, 2022 by Renegade7

[NickyJ]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Man...I'm glad im not paid millions of dollars to make this decision.

 

Because you sound like you've written Wentz off and from listening to Taylor and McLaurin today and Rivera this week, I don't hear a mutinity coming from the incoming reality Ron is gonna start Wentz against Houston anyway.

 

You don't start who you like the most, you start who gives you beat chance to win games, Ron wouldn't even entertain the discussion of starting Wentz again if he thoughta he was done or team would turn on him if he did that.

 

Bring this home...Foles won Philly the Super Bowl and Wentz was still the starter the following season.  Folks has not looked like a Super Bowl winning QB anywhere except Philly.  Eagles didn't turn that team over to Foles, they waited until they felt that had a better long term answers and Hurts to move Wentz, and were sure that was the right thing to do.  Hurts is better now then Foles has ever been, they were right.

I think we aren't hearing about a mutiny because nobody on the team would believe that Ron would put a horse back in the barn while he's still winning.

 

I'm not convinced that Wentz is going to look better now than he did at the start of the season. The O-Line is still suspect. Wentz is still a statue. I've been down on Heinicke, and I still am, but Wentz and Heinicke have fallen to neck and neck for me. They both have crippling deficiencies that the team can't mask forever. I had high hopes that Wentz would be better, but without any mobility, I don't think the offense can do any better than it's doing now. It's a depressing thought to me, but that's where I'm at.

[Ball Security]

34 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Hes won 4 out of 5.  His leash should be really freakin' long at this point, based on the QB play for this team for the past decade.  Every win people have to moan about not having Mahomes.  Every win is another reason to criticize.  Every time TH doesnt fit the narrative for how godlike people think this offense is supposed to be under the amazing hands of Scott Turner its back to the last QB who was terrible.  To making up and imagining a QB the players dont like, dont want, dont respect, replacing the QB they love right now.  Amazing to have every bit of over-achieving turned into imaginary-failure no matter how many great moments you give a "fanbase".

 

If you want statistics, go play fantasy football.

3 out of 4, but yeah.

[Renegade7]

18 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

I think we aren't hearing about a mutiny because nobody on the team would believe that Ron would put a horse back in the barn while he's still winning.

 

I'm not convinced that Wentz is going to look better now than he did at the start of the season. The O-Line is still suspect. Wentz is still a statue. I've been down on Heinicke, and I still am, but Wentz and Heinicke have fallen to neck and neck for me. They both have crippling deficiencies that the team can't mask forever. I had high hopes that Wentz would be better, but without any mobility, I don't think the offense can do any better than it's doing now. It's a depressing thought to me, but that's where I'm at.

 

You mean the Jaguars game? 🧐

 

Even through everything you saying he was easily top 10 in league in passing yards when he finally came out with injury, top 5 if I remember correctly.

 

It's really hard to convince me even with the potential increase in sacks that that increase of production in the passing game won't be worth it. Especially with Dotson back healthy.

 

They both turn the ball over, they both miss open receivers.  They now both have a solid running game and defense to work with.

 

Again, he stinks it up against Houston, all bets are off, not sure how long his leash is, but losing that one alone might cut it.  Odds are higher for Wentz coming back in 2023 then Taylor, it's kinds scary digging into our options after that, Honestly, why I'm in the make sure it won't work camp, and I'm convinced until I see otherwise so is Ron.

 

I'm not buying the team is saying all the right things because they don't believe Ron will put Wentz back out there.  Terry won't bad mouth regardless, and it's been pointed out can't say in offseason he wouldn't come back unless Taylor replaced now he doesn't want to play for Wentz over Taylor.  These guys are professionals and will give credit when credit is due especially when they are winning.  Don't win, then see what happens...

[Califan007 The Constipated]

 

They're obviously just being nice...

 

 

 

[petey hodge]

LOL

 

[zCommander]

1. Taylor Heinicke has presented Ron Rivera with a tough decision. Anyone who has followed the Commanders this season will likely agree: Heinicke's return to the starting lineup has injected life into this team. Washington went from a squad trudging through every game to a group that plays with passion and the belief it can win every week. The Commanders nearly pulled it off against Minnesota in their most recent game before collapsing late, and seemed to learn from that loss this time around, hanging on to win on the road. It wouldn't have happened without a few key Heinicke completions, including a deep shot to Terry McLaurin that set up a field goal to push Washington's lead to nine. Though he's not the most gifted passer, Heinicke made the most of the throws necessary to upset the Eagles in their house. His final line of 17-of-29 passing for 211 yards and one interception won't blow anyone away, but the tape tells us differently. And when Rivera reviews the last month with Heinicke in place of Wentz, he might not be so quick to go back to the usual starter.

More here: https://www.nfl.com/news/2022-nfl-season-week-10-what-we-learned-from-commanders-win-over-eagles-on-monda

[TChaler70]

TH haters are just WRONG! Boy is 3-1 and lost to the 8-1 Vikings by 3! D was not good this game just were never on the field because of the maestro TH! Haters going to hate.

 

Tough decision my azz, what do you think scary is going to do when the statue comes back in and never looks his way.

 

TH the rest of the way! Who were the folks with 15K posts that were tanking for the draft 4 games into the season...extreme experts at its finest!

Edited November 15, 2022 by TChaler70

[petey hodge]

1 hour ago, NoCalMike said:

If they decide to stick with Heinicke, the question becomes how long is his leash? 

 

His leash is the same limit as his deep ball... roughly 25 yards.

[wit33]

It’s out of Ron’s hands. Locker room has decided. 

[zCommander]

18 minutes ago, wit33 said:

It’s out of Ron’s hands. Locker room has decided. 

 

Well Terry did say what he brings to the field is infectious. So yeah. 

[CapsSkins]

Ron should announce that Heinicke will start through the bye.

 

That will get him to 7 games, which will be at least 30% of the season's snaps and will ensure the 3rd pick from the Wentz trade does not turn into a 2nd round pick.

 

It'll also give Ron time to see how / where the team is (and how Wentz is doing) before the final 4 games of the season.

[Dr. Do Itch Big]

Saying 3-1 is such a reductionist argument that’s it’s not meant to be taken very seriously. It’s like saying Trent difler is a better player than Dan Marino. 
 

how about you actually analyze TH’s play on the field. It isn’t great. I thought he was okay today, terrible against the Vikings. I still don’t think this team will contend with either TH or Wentz but the team is playing better as a unit with TH. He deserves some credit but context matters. 

[KDawg]

5 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

As TH's harshest on-board critic, I agree.

 

And he played well tonight.  One bonehead mistake.  Otherwise really good.  

I didn’t think he was all that great last night. Or any game. He is a roller coaster every week. But the other players play for him and right now, after beating a team many considered the best in the NFL, you just can’t sit him. It’s a bad move for the guy starting, it’s a bad move for a coaching staff trying to win. It’s just a bad move. 
 

We can opine about his arm (and we’d be right) and his decisions (and we’d be right) but they won. And while no one in their right mind can say the guy is a great QB, the team elevates because of him. 
 

We didn’t see that with Wentz, despite the fact that Wentz is a better actual QB.

 

I’ve always said Taylor does all the little **** right, he is one of the best playaction guys in football. He just doesn’t have the NFL arm, speed or size. But he’s literally elite at all the little stuff. So… for now…

 

He needs to remain the starter.

 

And I say all this knowing that next week he’s going to get me riled up with his death balls and floating quackers but still somehow have a chance to win a game.

[FrFan]

5 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

If they decide to stick with Heinicke, the question becomes how long is his leash?

As long as we get our second round pick back from the Colts and give them a 3rd instead

[Est.1974]

3 hours ago, wit33 said:

It’s out of Ron’s hands. Locker room has decided. 

Yep, can’t do anything else now but name him starter for the rest of the year IMO.