The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Leonard Washington]

11 hours ago, Dan T. said:

 

We were supposed to be all excited about getting Wentz because of his super duper strong arm.  But a strong arm is worse than useless when he's zinging short 7-yard swing passes 85 MPH and making the receivers jump or reach for them, which I saw over and over yesterday.  He's shown little touch on "conservative" passes.

 

More running and conservative passing is better suited to Taylor Heinicke.  At least he's got the mobility to escape the rush and a feathery touch when needed on short and intermediate passes that Wentz can't seem to find.   

 

A switch is not going to happen any time soon and I'm not advocating for it.  But it's not like Carson Wentz has seized the position and established himself as THE guy through stellar play.  Still waiting for that to happen.

Wentz is still an upgrade over Heinicke (and I like Heinicke). RR is playing the long game by maintaining/protecting his confidence against a strong Dallas pass rush and our weak line. The game plan will depend on our defense slowing down Dallas’s offense. 

[Jbird7]

16 hours ago, TMK9973 said:

 

I would say Wentz has a WAR of about 2.5

I would say Settle, Collins and Flower combined has a WAR of 2.5

 

Sooo - Trading for  Wentz at the expensive of the other guys we had to cut to afford him gives us no additional wins.  

 

 

This is where we dieagree.

Settle was a back-up DL and came in occasionally and got a sack or 2. (Philadrian was an upgrade because of the upside, but unfortunate injury and while I do agree we should have kept setttle for depth, he wanted to start somewhere.) ((we are arguing about someone who has 2 tackles in 3 games for the bills..... ))

Collins was costing us games at S. He may have been a net 0 at the buffalo, but his $$ way more than he was worth.

Flowers was a back-up lineman that yes I would like to have, but oh well.

 

If 2 back-ups and a washed up slow saftety could get us 2.5 wins, yeah bust out the checkbook.

 

But I would argue that by these arbitrary standards, Wentz a WAR of 8 over Heineken. and I like Heineken.

 

There is a reason we have a top flight passing attack this year, and it aint solely because of Dotson.

 

 

 

[CommanderInTheRye]

Unfortunately, given Rivera's stubbornness and two dimensional old school thinking, the most intriguing QB on the roster is the one that is least likely to play this year.

 

If we go through this season and continue to play like we're a jolopy with three flat tires and an engine contaminated with sand the greatest mistake we would make is to not play Sam Howell.

 

We need to know BEFORE the draft what we've got with this kid so that we can make informed decisions on the team's direction.

 

.

Edited September 27, 2022 by CommanderInTheRye

[TMK9973]

38 minutes ago, Jbird7 said:

But I would argue that by these arbitrary standards, Wentz a WAR of 8 over Heineken. and I like Heineken.

So you are saying last year we win 15 games if Wentz was QB over Henicke?

 

Come on. We were having a good discussion.

 

[zCommander]

12 hours ago, Leonard Washington said:

Wentz is still an upgrade over Heinicke (and I like Heinicke). RR is playing the long game by maintaining/protecting his confidence against a strong Dallas pass rush and our weak line. The game plan will depend on our defense slowing down Dallas’s offense. 

 

If you look at cost vs. production. It doesn't right now. Maybe somehow RR can get the OL playing better. Which I am not seeing right now. How many games does Wentz needs to win to be considered an upgrade? I know it is not a realistic metric but that is what the fans will be looking for.

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by zCommander

[Franklin60]

2 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

If you look at cost vs. production. It doesn't right now. Maybe somehow RR can get the OL playing better. Which I am not seeing right now. How many games does Wentz needs to win to be considered an upgrade? I know it is not a realistic metric but that what the fans will be looking for.

 

I don’t think an upgrade can be measured solely in wins. It’s more a combination of things, like yards per game, points scored, turnovers. Things like that.

[zCommander]

9 minutes ago, Franklin60 said:

I don’t think an upgrade can be measured solely in wins. It’s more a combination of things, like yards per game, points scored, turnovers. Things like that.

 

7TD to 5 INT is not looking good for him right now either. What I was saying was the avg. fans who go to the games. They are spending their hard earned money to go to the games to see their team win. They want to see Wentz win games and not lose them by holding on to the ball way too long, for example. To them they are not going to see it as an upgrade unless things change really fast. Sure it has only been 3 games but the confidence right now is kinda of low for everyone. We wait and see. I do that every year so maybe I am use to it...lol

[Cooleyfan1993]

Just now, zCommander said:

 

7TD to 5 INT is not looking good for him right now either. 

5? Where did the other 2 mysteriously come from…..? Did he have 2 INTs on Sunday that nobody else noticed? Maybe a ghost intercepted his passes🤔

[zCommander]

6 minutes ago, Cooleyfan1993 said:

5? Where did the other 2 mysteriously come from…..? Did he have 2 INTs on Sunday that nobody else noticed? Maybe a ghost intercepted his passes🤔

 

The two he is going to have on Sunday. I was predicting the future. 🤣

[TMK9973]

26 minutes ago, Franklin60 said:

I don’t think an upgrade can be measured solely in wins. It’s more a combination of things, like yards per game, points scored, turnovers. Things like that.

I think for THIS year -It 100% is. Because Even if Wentz lights it up and sets all sorts of records, The cost of bringing him was cutting other players and not signing FA's.  So how many more games did we win with Wentz vs if we had kept Henicke and spent that money elswhere?

 

You play to win right?  We can't talk Wentz and NOT discuss how much it cost us.  The goal is to win games and EVERY player we sign should be with the focus us does having this player on our team increase the numbers of wins we have. 

 

I keep going back - What games did we lose last year that we would have won if Wentz was the QB?

Is our record any different right now if we didnt trade for Wentz?

 

 

[Panninho]

15 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Cosmi was on the other end of a few god awful plays that wrecked the game.  But PFF had him as the 2nd highest ranked offensive player.  It felt to me like he was getting worked regularly.

 

He was getting worked, but he graded very well in run blocking, by far the best on our O-line in that regard. That cancelled out his mediocre pas-blocking day. Also I guess at least 1 of the sacks was credited to Wentz for dropping +10 yards deep.

[Warhead36]

2 hours ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

Unfortunately, given Rivera's stubbornness and two dimensional old school thinking, the most intriguing QB on the roster is the one that is least likely to play this year.

 

If we go through this season and continue to play like we're a jolopy with three flat tires and an engine contaminated with sand the greatest mistake we would make is to not play Sam Howell.

 

We need to know BEFORE the draft what we've got with this kid so that we can make informed decisions on the team's direction.

 

.

I think Howell will get some snaps if/when we're mathematically eliminated....which at this rate could be by Halloween "lolol"

[Jbird7]

1 hour ago, TMK9973 said:

So you are saying last year we win 15 games if Wentz was QB over Henicke?

 

Come on. We were having a good discussion.

 

Yeah but you gave us 2.5 wins with Flowers, Settle and Collins.....

I figured if we were getting out on the deep end we might as well get out there.....

 

Seriously, I like the Wentz addition, and Heinikie is a scrappy fantastic back-up. With Howell as a quality development in the wings I have no issues.

On that note, who would you have had as Heinikie's back-up? Still would have had to spend $$ there....

 

Wentz is a great 1 year stop-gap and if he puts up MVP numbers, would probably be willing to give a hometown discount to the team that resurrected his career, and if not, we can always move to the Howell experiment in addition to adding an FA, or using what appears to be a top 5 draft pick on a QB.

 

The only personnel issue I have is how LB was handled in the offseason and keeping both WJ3 and Fuller as starters @ CB. 

The flowers, settles of the world are not going to take us to or keep us from the playoffs.

Heinikie vs. Wentz will.

 

R

 

[TMK9973]

11 minutes ago, Jbird7 said:

Yeah but you gave us 2.5 wins with Flowers, Settle and Collins.....

I figured if we were getting out on the deep end we might as well get out there.....

 

 

 

 

I give them 2.5 COMBINED.  I think there is more then a vacuum. For instance- Yes _ Settle was a back up. But a good one that because he could give other players a rest at time, made them better.  

 

I agree with your other takes. I like Wentz as a stop gap as well, but he cost us a LOT for a stop gap.  

[Jbird7]

14 minutes ago, TMK9973 said:

I give them 2.5 COMBINED.  I think there is more then a vacuum. For instance- Yes _ Settle was a back up. But a good one that because he could give other players a rest at time, made them better.  

 

I agree with your other takes. I like Wentz as a stop gap as well, but he cost us a LOT for a stop gap.  

 

He did cost a lot, but his production though 3 games is 100% worth it.

 

Through 2 games he set NFL records for yards and tds with a new team. 

 

Game 3 was a clear and present inditement on the coaching staff of having a pretty pathetic gameplan that consisted of "Run Terry, Samuels and Dotson out deep and let Wentz throw long."

It was clear when our OL was a turnstile and CW had no time to throw, let alone the WRs get deep, and WE HAD NO ANWER/ADJUETMENT, that Philly had game planned well and out coached us.

Heck all that said, the D still played well for 3 quarters.

 

Maybe getting BRob in action makes teams respect the run?....

Maybe If Young comes back we pressure the QB a little better?  

Doubt it makes significant difference.

 

We clearly need to resign Payne, draft a DE, LB, and CB and OL OL OL OL. and find some coaches that can gameplan, adjust, and start players based on ability and performance, not hoe much they like em.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jumbo]

Since talking about how to make this franchise a winner is as close to telling pure fantasy tales as it can get, I'd settle for soothing some of my current petty annoyances: ala hoping we cut heinie asap and no later next off season so I don't have to keep reading the squad of weirdo fanboyz who can't help stupidly bringing him up like his existence here actually matters, or writing a new rule that limits mentioning him (unless he's on the field in a game) only in our fantasy forum. Our situation is pathetic enough without adding the extra stupid.

[NewCliche21]

15 minutes ago, Jbird7 said:

We clearly need to resign Payne, draft a DE, LB, and CB and OL OL OL OL. and find some coaches that can gameplan, adjust, and start players based on ability and performance, not hoe much they like em.

 

 

So other than that we're set?

[Cooleyfan1993]

5 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

So other than that we're set?

 

 

[Kelvin Bryant]

1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

Since talking about how to make this franchise a winner is as close to telling pure fantasy tales as it can get, I'd settle for soothing some of my current petty annoyances: ala hoping we cut heinie asap and no later next off season so I don't have to keep reading the squad of weirdo fanboyz who can't help stupidly bringing him up like his existence here actually matters, or writing a new rule that limits mentioning him (unless he's on the field in a game) only in our fantasy forum. Our situation is pathetic enough without adding the extra stupid.

Are you seriously contemplating banning discussions of the backup QB on a football team discussion forum? As other players are un-personed as well, will you be providing a pinned "players you can post about" list?

Edited September 27, 2022 by Kelvin Bryant

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

At the risk of activating your twitchy ban finger, are you seriously contemplating banning discussions of the backup QB on a football team discussion forum? As other players are un-personed as well, will you be providing a pinned "players you can post about" list?

I can’t speak for him, but from my view much of the talk about Heineke comes from a small but loud contingent, that primarily posts about Heineke and/or Wentz sucking.  The topic has been covered so many times there is no new ground to cover.  So I can see why mods and posters alike get sick of hearing about the dude.

[Kelvin Bryant]

5 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I can’t speak for him, but from my view much of the talk about Heineke comes from a small but loud contingent, that primarily posts about Heineke and/or Wentz sucking.  The topic has been covered so many times there is no new ground to cover.  So I can see why mods and posters alike get sick of hearing about the dude.

Topics that have been previously discussed make up a huge percentage of the content here. Should they all be banned, or just the ones you personally find irritating?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

5 minutes ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

Topics that have been previously discussed make up a huge percentage of the content here. Should they all be banned, or just the ones you personally find irritating?

The topic gets brought up in multiple threads - on or off topic, by the usual suspects, relentlessly over and over again.

 

But while your asking, yes - it would be nice if they banned topics that I personally find Irritating.

[Zim489]

If they were to bypass a top 5 pick QB in favor of Howell I will flip a gasket. 

[NickyJ]

 

12 minutes ago, Kelvin Bryant said:

Topics that have been previously discussed make up a huge percentage of the content here. Should they all be banned, or just the ones you personally find irritating?

Were you active on ES during the CousinsG3 wars? Those got the same sort of restrictions too, same with the exit of Cousins. Limiting the number of threads a backup can be talked about isn't something particularly new. That it has to be done for someone who was always supposed to be a backup does make it unique though. Closest we ever got to that was Colt McCoy or Colt Brennan, I guess lol

[Kelvin Bryant]

14 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

But while your asking, yes - it would be nice if they banned topics that I personally find Irritating.

I feel much the same way. There is the possibility your topics and mine might not completely overlap, however.

4 minutes ago, NickyJ said:

 

Were you active on ES during the CousinsG3 wars? Those got the same sort of restrictions too, same with the exit of Cousins. Limiting the number of threads a backup can be talked about isn't something particularly new. That it has to be done for someone who was always supposed to be a backup does make it unique though. Closest we ever got to that was Colt McCoy or Colt Brennan, I guess lol

I remember efforts to end the RG3/Cousins debates after Cousins left. I don't recall discussion of Cousins being officially silenced while he was on the team.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Kelvin Bryant