The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[SkinsFTW]

I don't know how he dug up that website, but it seems to be one of those BS spam about anything, google translated websites, that you might end up finding when you do a search.

 

Example: 

8. Jacoby Brissett (Browns)

Like Taylor and Dalton, he’s come what may managed to be every conservative and fairly inefficient during extended movement. But he’s adapted in short in unexpected occupation changes and confirmed, with the Colts, he can also be borderline playoff-caliber with good enhance.

 

 

WTF does any of this mean?

 

Did RR make a mistake? Maybe they need Brissett? He spelled Paloffs wrong, but the word is there!

Edited June 27, 2022 by SkinsFTW

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, SkinsFTW said:

I don't know how he dug up that website, but it seems to be one of those BS spam about anything, google translated websites, that you might end up finding when you do a search.

 

Example: 

8. Jacoby Brissett (Browns)

Like Taylor and Dalton, he’s come what may managed to be every conservative and fairly inefficient during extended movement. But he’s adapted in short in unexpected occupation changes and confirmed, with the Colts, he can also be borderline playoff-caliber with good enhance.

 

 

WTF does any of this mean?

[Koolblue13]

Bullet dodged

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/reports-deshaun-watson-to-face-nfl-disciplinary-hearing-starting-tuesday-223923835.html?ncid=facebook_yahoosport_l0w2dc1068w&fbclid=IwAR3zxoTzlq9PGa16IOwoLYse6jQhDLOv2NnaTbhfnnRTv-PlM-_iSLLnUBo

 

Reports: NFL seeks minimum 1-year ban for Deshaun Watson in disciplinary hearings that start Tuesday

The hearing will be overseen by former U.S. District Judge Sue L. Robinson, who will act as an independent officer. Watson, who faces allegations of varying degrees of sexual assault and misconduct by 24 women, will be represented by the NFLPA.

 

[zCommander]

3 hours ago, KDawg said:

Otherwise, as a guy using stats for a basis of argument Z, what stats make you think that?

 

Every stats. The best year for Turbs was in 2018 but he still had 12 INT to 24 TDs. His completion % was a tad higher at 66% vs. Taylor's at 63.2%. A first round QB has unperformed in almost every stat vs. Taylor's one year 16 game start. 

 

@Koolblue13 just because some idiot pays someone more money that doesn't make it that the leagues agrees that he is better..,lol

[Voice_of_Reason]

9 hours ago, zCommander said:

The only problem here is that you are not thinking like a businessman.

Well, if they're thinking like a businessman, they are going about it wrong from the football side.  And they're not thinking like a business man. They're thinking like a team desperate for a QB when they didn't have one.  

 

9 hours ago, zCommander said:

I have owned a business for over 13 years. Trust me there is a lot of things go into making sure you can sell your product(s). As the saying goes "sex sells" but in this case the QB sells seats and merchandising and season tickets. TH wasn't going to do that and not for someone who was a backup and then became the starter by default. He was not the shinny new toy there were looking for. They clearly said with the name change we are going to get that QB. It all had to do with the name change. I mean they actually said that. 

Turbisky better than TH now that is laughable. 

I have run my own business for quite a while too, FWIW.  

 

Wentz was never going to be a big draw, it wasn't going to be exciting, and literally every single media outlet CRUSHED the move.  If you think they were swinging big for a name and Wentz was going to generate fan excitement, then I question what the hell media you've been listening to for the past 4 months.  Because the general feeling on Wentz from the media is "he sucks" or "the trade sucks," and the feeling from the fans is, "meh, whatever, I hope it works."

 

If they had landed Wilson, Carr or Rodgers, sure, that would have generated a ton of excitement.  They are also better QBs.  

 

You're going down the rabbit holeof "causation without correlation."  Two things were happening simultaneously, and they had nothing to do with each other:

 

1. They were going through the Commander's rebrand

2. They didn't have a starting QB on the roster and needed one.  Ron said it and even laughed about needing a starting QB in his "day after the season" radio tour with Sheehan.  

 

And Mitch and Mariota are both better prospects than TH, and it's not close.  Both can run a full NFL offense.  Are either of them "good?"  No.  But Mitch was signed and might be the starter in Pittsburgh depending on how Picket Develops, and Mariota most likely is the starter in Atlanta.  2 teams scooped them up to be starters.  Our team, who HAD TH, moved heaven and earth to make sure he wouldn't start.  And I would remind you the Steelers are a model organization, with a really good head coach, and a really good track record for player acquisition.  

 

One more point on the same subject, Ron, Turner and the FO knew what TH was BEFORE last season.  They signed him to a very reasonable backup QB contract, then tried to trade for Stafford, then signed a 38 year old player to be the starter.  TH never pushed Fitz in training camp.  

 

This group has had 2 off-seasons to show TH some love. The first one coming off of a playoff game where he played exceptionally well, and a lot of people were really excited and intrigued about him as a player.  Yet both times, they went out of their way to make sure TH was not going into a season as a starter.  That really should tell you what they think of him as a starter because Scott is probably his biggest fan in the NFL.  

 

If he was on the open market, he would not have been signed by either Pittsburgh or Atlanta to be a starter, or compete for the staring job, because he doesn't have an NFL skillset, so they would have gone with somebody who does.  

 

Bottom line: both of them either have or are competing for starting jobs.  TH does not.  And there is a reason for that.  And it's not a marketing reason, or ticket sales reason, it's a football reason.  

 

9 hours ago, zCommander said:

By the way, have you not seen how for the last 20+ years this is exactly what has been going on? How many QB have we actually try to develop? The FO or Danny for that matter is not going to wait around for that. He likes to eat his porridge hot. 

Yes, and all of that would make sense if you had a prospect you can develop.  Which TH is not because he doesn't have the skillset to be an NFL starter.  If they gave up on Howell early and didn't develop him, then fine, I'd hear you out on that. 

 

And just as an aside, I'm not sure how many QB prospects they gave up on early under Dan:

- Patrick Ramsey, a Dan pick, who Spurrier destroyed, but got 3 years and multiple chances.  Gibbs tried to develop him and it didn't work. 

- Jason Campbell, he got a redshirt year in 2005, then got 4 seasons to develop and play before he was traded to the Raiders, and I'm not sure anybody was upset about that.

- Griffin, another Dan pick, had a remarkable rookie season, Dan fired the coach he hated, and then another coach tried to develop him, and he still couldn't do it.

- Haskins (RIP), another Dan pick, who didn't last 2 full seasons, but who thinks we gave up on him too early?  

 

So who exactly have we given up on early that showed some type of promise?  This is a weak narrative from the 00's, which hasn't really been true in a while.  I pointed out before that this team is now primarily built through the draft and development.  I don't really want to go through all of it again, but just off the top of my head, Rouiller, Cosmi, several backup OL, Bates and Turner at TE, McLaurin, Brown, Dotson, Cam Sims, Milne and a few others at WR, basically the entire DL, Holcomb and Davis (both the starting LBs), and half the secondary were all drafted and developed.  We've been asking them to do this for decades, and now they ARE doing it.  

 

They're NOT doing it with TH.  Why?  Because he is at his ceiling, which is determined by his physical limitations.  

 

I've used this analogy before: TH is Chase Daniel.  A small, limited QB who's had a 15 year career as a backup, and never had a chance to compete for a starting job because he lacks the physical tools to be able to be a starting QB.  They are literally the same guy.  Great competitors, great teammates, smart guys, when they have the chance to play, they play at the best level they can, but they don't have the physical talent to be a starter.  

[KDawg]

7 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Every stats. The best year for Turbs was in 2018 but he still had 12 INT to 24 TDs. His completion % was a tad higher at 66% vs. Taylor's at 63.2%. A first round QB has unperformed in almost every stat vs. Taylor's one year 16 game start. 

 

@Koolblue13 just because some idiot pays someone more money that doesn't make it that the leagues agrees that he is better..,lol

 

 

 

vs. 

 

 

 

I don't see many stats where Heinicke is superior to Trubisky.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I think Z is confusing the narrative around both players with their actual abilities.

 

The narrative on Trubisky would be a lot different if he was undrafted, played backup in the XFL and was sleeping on his sisters couch when he got a call from the pros.  Because Chicago traded up in the first to get him, the expectations for him were a lot higher and he’s been deemed a bust. 
 

The narrative on Heineke is the exact opposite, the feel-good story about an overlooked, undrafted Rudy-like character.  
 

It’s only natural that the public perception of Trubisky is going to be worse because he was expected to be good vs. that of Heineke who most had never even heard of.

[Koolblue13]

Rudy is a great analogy for Heinicke, because he too went undrafted and wasn't an NFL starter.

[Voice_of_Reason]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I get it.  Naturally, there is doubt and bad feelings regarding any move this franchise makes, particularly at the QB position.  The smart money is always placed on failure for this team.

This is a 100% true statement.  

 

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That said, it has to be looked at from the perspective of - what other options did they have?  In my opinion, they landed the best possible option they could.  If Wentz didn’t have warts, he wouldn’t have been available.

First, let's just get it out of the way, the entire staff and FO had to be fired if they went into 2022 with the idea TH could be the starter.  So, that wasn't an option. Ron said it was, then discarded it quickly.  

 

So after that, there were the following possibilities:

- Option 1: Get one of the top-end QBs thought a trade: Wilson, Rodgers, Carr.

- Option 2: Investigate Watson (with the benefit of hindsight, thank God that didn't work out, but I'm sure they did their diligence on it.)

- Option 3: Trade for a "second tier" starting QB, Jimmy G. or Wentz. 

- Option 4: Sign a stop-gap FA (Mitch, Mariota, Dalton, whoever) AND Draft a guy to develop quickly.  My guess is in this case we draft Pickett.  It was swirling we liked Pickett the best of the QBs, so maybe it's at 11, maybe it's after a trade down, but let's say we spend our first on a QB in the draft.

 

Options 1 and 2 became not options.  Option 3 was better than option 4, and we took it so we didn't have to go to option 4. 

 

Then we drafted Howell to be the backup of the future if he doesn't become the starter.  

 

 

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I guess I’m just not that emotionally invested anymore to where if this doesn’t work, I’ll be devastated.  I’ve learned that if there is any chance for things to go sideways here, they will.  So I won’t be surprised if Wentz ends up getting hurt, injuries plague the rest of the roster, our “easy” schedule ends up anything but easy, or whatever else can help to derail a season.  At that point, the pundits rejoice and consider themselves “right” even though what went wrong didn’t really fit the narrative.

I'm not emotionally invested in it for a different reason: I believe Wentz is a good but not QB.  A lot like Kirk Cousins.  He will have good games, he will have bad games.  But if it doesn't work, it was worth the risk, because we lost probably 1 early and one mid-round pick, and I don't give a crap about the $28M salary cap hit this year, we have no obligation to Wentz after this year.  Sure, there's a sunk cost.  It's a risk.  

 

If it doesn't work out, I'll cry a little bit about the second round pick, but otherwise, we're off and running and looking for the next guy, and I'm fine with that.

 

What would REALLY have bothered me is if we re-structured Wentz's contract to guarantee him money more than in 2022, so if it didn't work out, we're stuck with a cap hit to get rid of him, so we might be stuck with him longer.  We didn't do that, thank God.  So to me, it's like in Blackjack, hitting on 16 when the dealer is showing 7.  It's the right thing to do.  You're in a tough spot, and a lot of bad things can happen, but it's better to take the card than sit there and most likely lose 16 to 17?  Yeah. 

 

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I know it’s overlooked and some folks will say it’s not relevant, but I feel like getting Terry and Carson together as soon as physically possible is incredibly important for next season.  The vibe alone with Terry not being there and building rapport with him is a bad one.  This needs to be worked out in a hurry.

I completely agree, though now that Mini-Camp is over, I'm not sure it matter that much until Training Camp begins.  It really needed to get worked out before Mini-Camp.  That's an unforced error on the part of the team (to start with) and my guess is now Terry's side is asking for a top-end guarantee contract, and it's going to take a little time to work out.

 

(But there is a whole thread on this.)

[mistertim]

On 6/25/2022 at 8:50 PM, zCommander said:

 

I understand. But his is not about defending TH at all.

 

 

You're not convincing anyone here. We all know how you feel about TH and how often you bring him up to defend him. Stop insulting everyone's intelligence by pretending that you're even remotely impartial and that what you're saying isn't an attempt to defend TH. You know it is just as well as us.

 

13 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

Let me clear up the Luck narrative. Before the name change it was apparent they were are also going to go for a big name QB to go with the name change. TH was not going to fit that bill. Wilson was on top of their list. But before the Wentz talk some of you wanted Turbisky or Marriota and the like. To that I said you go with TH instead and select a QB next year from the supposedly better QB class. But the FO wasn't going to do that. They wanted a big name to start the season with the new name. So they had to settle for Wentz and were willing to pay Wentz what he got paid for one year and hope for more though. We shall see if the FO made a wise choice or if they were shortsighted in the way they were thinking. 

 

As for what Kdawg meant/said it was about Howell.

 

 

Or maybe they just don't think Heinicke is a good QB and wanted an actual NFL starter.

[Conn]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Rudy is a great analogy for Heinicke, because he too went undrafted and wasn't an NFL starter.

Even worse, his whole story is essentially fake and most of the people who were on that team don’t remember him at all. He willed himself into a career as a motivational speaker off of basically nothing, so more power to him. But it basically ruins the Rudy movie for me knowing that the guy is more of a con artist than an inspiration. 

[Koolblue13]

27 minutes ago, Conn said:

Even worse, his whole story is essentially fake and most of the people who were on that team don’t remember him at all. He willed himself into a career as a motivational speaker off of basically nothing, so more power to him. But it basically ruins the Rudy movie for me knowing that the guy is more of a con artist than an inspiration. 

His best play was as a DE and his pro career was him getting arrested.

 

It's a ****ty story.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I'm starting to worry that Wentz/Heinicke will become a modern-day Campbell/Collins lol...

[ntotoro]

Just now, Califan007 The Constipated said:

I'm starting to worry that Wentz/Heinicke will become a modern-day Campbell/Collins lol...

 

It'll make a great Bang! episode, if nothing else... 🤣

[NickyJ]

1 hour ago, Conn said:

Even worse, his whole story is essentially fake and most of the people who were on that team don’t remember him at all. He willed himself into a career as a motivational speaker off of basically nothing, so more power to him. But it basically ruins the Rudy movie for me knowing that the guy is more of a con artist than an inspiration. 

After all these years, I never really looked into the background of the movie that much. All this time I thought it was supposed to be fictional lmao

[No Nonsense]

I know this was probably talked about, but RGIII was right. We should expect more from a DL consisting of 4 1st rounders. It’s called constructive criticism. You can’t say anything about today’s athletes without them getting in their feelings. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 minute ago, No Nonsense said:

I know this was probably talked about, but RGIII was right. We should expect more from a DL consisting of 4 1st rounders. It’s called constructive criticism. You can’t say anything about today’s athletes without them getting in their feelings. 

Or do they just have more avenues to respond?

 

I actually thought it was funny when Payne said he was a turf eater pretending to be an analyst. 🤣

[zCommander]

4 hours ago, mistertim said:

You're not convincing anyone here. We all know how you feel about TH and how often you bring him up to defend him. Stop insulting everyone's intelligence by pretending that you're even remotely impartial and that what you're saying isn't an attempt to defend TH. You know it is just as well as us.

 

Or maybe they just don't think Heinicke is a good QB and wanted an actual NFL starter.

 

Please STOP! So it is okay for you to insult my intelligence instead? To you comparing is defending? Maybe you don't think someone else can't be objective without liking/disliking someone. 

 

Taylor did start last year, 15 games, he was an actual starter by definition. It is okay if you don't want to admit that but he was an actual NFL starter in the year of 2021.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Llevron]

8 minutes ago, zCommander said:

Taylor did start last year, 15 games, he was an actual starter by definition. It is okay if you don't want to admit that but he was an actual NFL starter in the year of 2021.

 

Wait.... so to be clear. You do understand that by saying Taylor isn't an 'actual NFL starting QB', people are not actually arguing the fact that he has started games in the NFL before, right? Its a very common turn of phrase on this board. I would have thought everyone here understood that it actually is used as quick hand to say that he just isn't very talented when compared to even average NFL quarterbacks and wouldn't have started games were it not for us having very few other options.  

47 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I actually thought it was funny when Payne said he was a turf eater pretending to be an analyst. 🤣

 

Thats cause you have always been a hater lol

 

(That is pretty funny tho hahaha) 

[zCommander]

6 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

I think Z is confusing the narrative around both players with their actual abilities.

 

The narrative on Trubisky would be a lot different if he was undrafted, played backup in the XFL and was sleeping on his sisters couch when he got a call from the pros.  Because Chicago traded up in the first to get him, the expectations for him were a lot higher and he’s been deemed a bust. 
 

The narrative on Heineke is the exact opposite, the feel-good story about an overlooked, undrafted Rudy-like character.  
 

It’s only natural that the public perception of Trubisky is going to be worse because he was expected to be good vs. that of Heineke who most had never even heard of.

 

I know. Wait and see. But, is Wentz really worth $28 mil on his actual abilities for a one year rental? Desperate people do desperate things I guess. 

[Conn]

Just now, zCommander said:

 

I know. Wait and see. But, is Wentz really worth $28 mil on his actual abilities for a one year rental? Desperate people do desperate things I guess. 

? it isn’t a one year rental, that’s the entire upside of his contract. If he plays well we’ll probably need to guarantee a good portion of the remaining $$ since he can be cut without any cap hit and agents of good players hate that, but the structure is already there for multiple more years. 

[-9-]

58 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

... Payne said he was a turf eater ...

 

turf eater?

 

little help for the old guy ... google has nothing ...

 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

15 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Thats cause you have always been a hater lol

Actually, I was among the first to don a #3 jersey, and I used to convince myself that his extra stuff wasn’t extra.  Honestly it wasn’t until the whole “When Peyton Manning…” press conference after the Tampa game that I had seen enough from him.  I even hoped he might have a resurgence elsewhere but that died pretty quick.  
 

Just the term “turf eater” seemed so fitting and funny to me.🤣

[zCommander]

3 minutes ago, Conn said:

? it isn’t a one year rental, that’s the entire upside of his contract. If he plays well we’ll probably need to guarantee a good portion of the remaining $$ since he can be cut without any cap hit and agents of good players hate that, but the structure is already there for multiple more years. 

 

That is assuming he plays really well though. If not then yes it was a one year rental, so to speak. But at least we have Howell so maybe something else to look forward to if he can become our franchise QB instead.