The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[kingdaddy]

Just now, CapsSkins said:

 

Except if you were Ron Rivera entering Year 3 on the job, you'd know you can't afford to kick the can a year down the road again. You did that last year.

 

They have to find a solution this year and pray it works, whether Vet or Rookie.

Maybe.....I think Ron gets more rope than the average head coach. I think they are so invested in him that it would take a complete collapse for them to move on from him and even with that I bet he'd just resign. The players love RR and I really think they'll play hard for him and are very hungry to win. Question for you, do you think any of the rookie QB's we might draft, even if we get the best one, would be ready to start and save this team from day one? I do not. I would sign a vet with some potential to start the season rather then throwing a kid who's not ready to the wolves. 

[Redskins 2021]

20 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Threw what off?

 

There was no communication of annual metrics to hold them accountable to when Rivera took the job to say we were ahead of schedule or exceeding expectations.  We all just assumed that.

 

Winning the division changed our expectations as fans, we overachieved with a last place schedule.  I am happy we did that, I am furious our organization decided to skip steps in the rebuild because of it.

 

Winning the division is no excuse for punting on drafting a QB for what looks like a possible third off-season in a row.  Our roster got exposed this year, we are still rebuilding and struggling to add talent, which would be acceptable if we weren't backing ourselves into a corner and trying to win now by trading for a veteran.

 

We aren't going through the growing pains of a young roster or rookie QB.  We are losing because we don't have enough talent to make up for our band-aid attempts to get by at QB.  We trade our draft capital away for a win now QB, we'll lose at least half our cap space and our way to add cheap young talent around him.  That's not a rebuild, it's a get rich quick scheme.

I agree the fan expectations got  pushed off the charts by winning that division. We do have holes on this team.

Regardless the Qb problem should have been solved last year.

[skinny21]

I’m so torn about the idea the FO might look into a 2nd round qb.  

On one hand:

Means we’re likely out on the top guys (and I’m torn on this point too - I think there are some intriguing options likely to be available at 11, but I also don’t want them to settle for taking a guy they’re not sold on)

Might mean we’re more likely to go after Garoppolo because Mariota/Trubisky and a 2nd rounder are both semi long shots to work out, and I don’t want to be down to 6mil in cap space after signing him (or worse, extend him at over %10 of our cap).

 

On the other hand:

I think this means they’ll try for a 1st round qb next draft.  I understand why some might have angst over this, but if they see it as a better class, at least it shows some forward thinking.

[CapsSkins]

11 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Maybe.....I think Ron gets more rope than the average head coach. I think they are so invested in him that it would take a complete collapse for them to move on from him and even with that I bet he'd just resign. The players love RR and I really think they'll play hard for him and are very hungry to win. Question for you, do you think any of the rookie QB's we might draft, even if we get the best one, would be ready to start and save this team from day one? I do not. I would sign a vet with some potential to start the season rather then throwing a kid who's not ready to the wolves. 

 

I don't watch college football so I have zero clue about the rookies other than the ink spilled on them by the media, which I also tend to take with a grain of salt for a variety of reasons.

 

I don't necessarily think Rivera would get fired but the seat would start to get hot. And the fact that Ron has basically said they want to be very aggressive this offseason aligns with the sentiment. There's a reason he's said that and not played coy about their options... especially with the re-brand I think he understands there are expectations and that he needs to make a move this year.

 

That being said, the counterpoint to myself is that as a Head Coach, you basically get one shot to get your guy at QB and you pretty much have to be right or else you'll be gone. Hitching your wagon to the wrong guy is usually a death knell, so maybe it's worth getting a Jimmy G and trading down to stock up for ammo next year. But the problem is Jimmy G probably wins you 10-12 games, you may get into the Wild Card game or even win the division, and now you're trying to draft a guy while sitting at Pick 17 instead of Pick 11. That's tough to swallow...

[Tsailand]

McNabb was 33 when he played for us.  Alex Smith was 33 when he played for us.  Russell Wilson is 33 this year.

[Skinsinparadise]

3 minutes ago, Tsailand said:

McNabb was 33 when he played for us.  Alex Smith was 33 when he played for us.  Russell Wilson is 33 this year.

 

If I recall so was Brunell or was he 34.  Regardless, there is one outlier in that group.  

[Redskins 2021]

4 minutes ago, CapsSkins said:

 

I don't watch college football so I have zero clue about the rookies other than the ink spilled on them by the media, which I also tend to take with a grain of salt for a variety of reasons.

 

I don't necessarily think Rivera would get fired but the seat would start to get hot. And the fact that Ron has basically said they want to be very aggressive this offseason aligns with the sentiment. There's a reason he's said that and not played coy about their options... especially with the re-brand I think he understands there are expectations and that he needs to make a move this year.

 

That being said, the counterpoint to myself is that as a Head Coach, you basically get one shot to get your guy at QB and you pretty much have to be right or else you'll be gone. Hitching your wagon to the wrong guy is usually a death knell, so maybe it's worth getting a Jimmy G and trading down to stock up for ammo next year. But the problem is Jimmy G probably wins you 10-12 games, you may get into the Wild Card game or even win the division, and now you're trying to draft a guy while sitting at Pick 17 instead of Pick 11. That's tough to swallow...

 Try to move your first rounder to get more picks this year there are 3 game breaker Qb in the 2023 draft. 

[MartinC]

33 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Think it's odd to create a five-year plan when the average career of an NFL player is three years.

Ah yes but averages are deceptive. 

If you exclude players who don’t make an opening day roster as a rookie or UDFA the average career is 6 years. If you look only at players who make it past year three the average career us over 7 years.
 

The average career of a first round pick is over 7 years. A first round pick has over 9 years on average. A player who makes the Pro Bowl (even once) is over 12 years.

 

Bigger issue for team development in the era of free agency is how many players do you want to/are you able to keep past their first contract.

[Stone Cold]

So there’s the 27 and the 33 club.  Great. 😕

[Zim489]

49 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

We aren't going through the growing pains of a young roster or rookie QB.  We are losing because we don't have enough talent to make up for our band-aid attempts to get by at QB.  We trade our draft capital away for a win now QB, we'll lose at least half our cap space and our way to add cheap young talent around him.  That's not a rebuild, it's a get rich quick scheme.

Its what this franchise always done. For the people who have said we have been rebuilding for 20 years is wrong. We have been trying to win now for 20 years. We have never done a true rebuild. It has driven me crazy 

33 minutes ago, kingdaddy said:

Maybe.....I think Ron gets more rope than the average head coach. I think they are so invested in him that it would take a complete collapse for them to move on from him and even with that I bet he'd just resign. The players love RR and I really think they'll play hard for him and are very hungry to win. Question for you, do you think any of the rookie QB's we might draft, even if we get the best one, would be ready to start and save this team from day one? I do not. I would sign a vet with some potential to start the season rather then throwing a kid who's not ready to the wolves. 

Still has a 5 year deal. Were entering year 3 with nothing at QB and no clear way to get an elite talent. Either gets 4 years or 6+. Nothing right now shows hes worthy of getting 6+

[DWinzit]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Doesn't scare me at all, I went them to swing hard for the fences.  It's about time.

 

I like Rivera, I think he's done a good job and I think no chance Dan fires him anytime soon.  Dan is stupid but I don't think he's that stupid where he doesn't get the fallout from firing Ron coupled with the organization already is seen as a dumpster fire.  But I do suspect that Ron doesn't get the level of cynicism with this fanbase in particular at the QB spot.  It's guilty before innocent now.  He won't get the benefot of the doubt because of all that happened before he got here.  And that's not Ron's fault but its a function of all the swings and misses at that spot.  And Jimmy G would feel so Brunell, Alex Smith, McNabb. 

 

Can agree in principle and then the deal becomes official at the start of the league year (March FA)

I am just afraid they float an offer no team could ever refuse...because it is stupid large. A slightly over the top offer to a Wilson is cool

 

I am more a Rivera fan now than I ever was. He has fully earned my respect. I hope Dan can respect Ron's space for at least year...sounds crazy

 

I am not a fan of giving up draft capital for Jimmy G. I guess if he was a FA he wouldn't bother me as much. 

 

I agree with the Jimmy G to McNabb comparison.,

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by DWinzit

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

I’m so torn about the idea the FO might look into a 2nd round qb.  

On one hand:

Means we’re likely out on the top guys (and I’m torn on this point too - I think there are some intriguing options likely to be available at 11, but I also don’t want them to settle for taking a guy they’re not sold on)

Might mean we’re more likely to go after Garoppolo because Mariota/Trubisky and a 2nd rounder are both semi long shots to work out, and I don’t want to be down to 6mil in cap space after signing him (or worse, extend him at over %10 of our cap).

 

On the other hand:

I think this means they’ll try for a 1st round qb next draft.  I understand why some might have angst over this, but if they see it as a better class, at least it shows some forward thinking.

 

I've changed my mind as the process has gone on.  for me for example I'd take Corral at 11.  But that's me.  If they don't love him there, that's fine.  I don't really love any of these QBs, I like some though.   It doesn't sound to me that left field for them not to be in love with one of these guys.  And if that's the case I don't want them to force it.

 

Judging by leaks and to some extent what Rivera/Silver have hinted at.

 

A.  They are totally on board as for swinging for the fences for a top QB and will do so.

 

B.  The position they have that some don't like here is their supposedly fallback position which is if they don't get that top QB, they don't want to suck.  Sucking isn't on the table for them so in that case they likely want a guy who can squeeze them in the playoffs while rolling the dice on a young QB but not one of the first rounders.  

 

C.  The vibe I get there is they'd take multiple shots at the Qb spot where if the 2022 approach fails they'd do it again in 2023.  And if so to me that's plenty enough of an outside box approach to this.  If they do a 2nd rounder this year and lets say trade up in the first in 2023, I am cool with it.

 

As for same old same old.  If they did it this way, all three scenarios would be new for this team.

 

A.  Shooting for a top 10 veteran elite QB is new.  Their thing has been to go for aging 2nd tier QBs and in 2 of those 3 cases declining veterans.

 

B.  Doing both a veteran and a rookie together would be new

 

C.  Going for back to back swings at the QB spot with high picks would also be new.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Doesn't scare me at all, I went them to swing hard for the fences.  It's about time.

 

I like Rivera, I think he's done a good job and I think no chance Dan fires him anytime soon.  Dan is stupid but I don't think he's that stupid where he doesn't get the fallout from firing Ron coupled with the organization already is seen as a dumpster fire.  But I do suspect that Ron doesn't get the level of cynicism with this fanbase in particular at the QB spot.  It's guilty before innocent now.  He won't get the benefot of the doubt because of all that happened before he got here.  And that's not Ron's fault but its a function of all the swings and misses at that spot.  And Jimmy G would feel so Brunell, Alex Smith, McNabb. 

 

Can agree in principle and then the deal becomes official at the start of the league year (March FA)

I am just afraid they float an offer no team could ever refuse...because it is stupid large. A slightly over the top offer to a Wilson is cool

 

I am more a Rivera fan now than I ever was. He has fully earned my respect. I hope Dan can respect Ron's space for at least year...sounds crazy

 

I am not a fan of giving up draft capital for Jimmy G. I guess if he was a FA he wouldn't bother me as much. 

 

I agree with the Jimmy G to McNabb comparison.,

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Burgold]

I kinda think Rivera was trying for a true rebuild. In his first year, Washington signed no big time free agents and let the roster ride plus a few one year contracts. The team surprised everyone by overachieving. So, in year 2, they tried to build on what what they had, but the team regressed largely because of bad signings, sophomore slumps, injuries, and the difficulty of playing an entire season with your third string QB (maybe your back up QB) as starter.

 

 

[Zim489]

2 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I am more a Rivera fan now than I ever was

I dont get where this comes from. With a MVP caliber QB he has a middling record. Sure hes a great guy but record wise he appears to be one of the most overrated HCs in the entire league while also putting together one of the worst FO in football. 

[DWinzit]

duplicate post sorry! 

Edited February 8, 2022 by DWinzit

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I am just afraid they float an offer no team could ever refuse...because it is stupid large. A slightly over the top offer to a Wilson is cool

 

I am more a Rivera fan now than I ever was. He has fully earned my respect. I hope Dan can respect Ron's space for at least year...sounds crazy

 

I am not a fan of giving up draft capital for Jimmy G. I guess if he was a FA he wouldn't bother me as much. 

 

I agree with the Jimmy G to McNabb comparison.,

 

 

 

I think they got to be aggressive so I am ok with overpaying.  My bigger fear is they strike out.  It would have to be a crazy deal for me to hate it.  

 

Yeah I am not a big fan of trading for Jimmy G -- but i can live with it depending on context. 

[Zim489]

1 minute ago, Burgold said:

I kinda think Rivera was trying for a true rebuild. In his first year, Washington signed no big time free agents and let the roster ride plus a few one year contracts. The team surprised everyone by overachieving. So, in year 2, they tried to build on what what they had, but the team regressed largely because of bad signings, sophomore slumps, injuries, and the difficulty of playing an entire season with your third string QB (maybe your back up QB) as starter.

 

 

If this was the case he would be trying to trade scherff Payne and Kerrigan. You cut Alex. You restructure Landon to be cut the following year. I know chases pick cant be swapped for Herbert. Thats full revisionist history but a trade pick and some one like Wirfs after the trade back. All those moves makes you a 3-4 win team in 2020 and were drafting top 5 in 2021 with the great QB class. The QB class people saw dating back to high school to be good. There was plenty of talk in 2020 that the 22 draft class was looking bad and as the season progressed it showed that way too. 

[KDawg]

I’m not entirely sure how much better of a prospect we can get next year. The top prizes currently would be Stroud and Young. They will conservatively be gone in the first three picks.

 

The other possible prospects are Rattler, Shough, Ugaleilei, Gunnell, Slovis, Haener, Jurkovic.

 

Some talent there. If they all come out. Graham Mertz is another to keep an eye on.

 

But I’m not sold they all come out. Young and Stroud are not locks. Slovis has a lot to prove. Ugaleilei isn’t that good. Haener is the wild card. Rattler… he can rebound real quick.

 

If 3 of the group of Rattler, Young and Stroud come out, and combine that with a riser like a Mertz or Haener and there’s 4 prospects and we have a shot. Less than 4 I’d be worried about our chances. 

[Zim489]

My worst fear is them striking out and then balking on QB again this year meaning they vastly overpay next year and then screw over the next regime by giving up the farm. A whiff in 2022 could easily lead to this team not looking good until 2026. 

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

 

 

I am more a Rivera fan now than I ever was. He has fully earned my respect. I hope Dan can respect Ron's space for at least year...sounds crazy

 

 

 

Me too as for Ron.  He inherited a crap team and today they got a fairly good young roster with ample cap space.  He's rebuilt the culture and brought back some respectability to this club at least on the field.

 

He has a missing component which is the QB spot.  I don't get the crying by some about it.  Lets see him fail first because labelling his off season effort at the spot as a failure.  

 

Getting rid of Ron would be the death knell that perhaps Dan deserves but as of now I can't root for bad things to happen to this team.  I am not that jaded, yet.  😀

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

13 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

I dont get where this comes from. With a MVP caliber QB he has a middling record. Sure hes a great guy but record wise he appears to be one of the most overrated HCs in the entire league while also putting together one of the worst FO in football. 

I appreciate his consistencies and loyalty, He is a gentleman in a world that that is not the norm. It is this style that earns him respect in the league and the football team from Washington does not get much respect around the league.

Edited February 8, 2022 by DWinzit

[Zim489]

6 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

He is a gentleman in a world that that is not the norm.

I mean thats a nice add on but as a football Head coach he is an old school and likely out of touch with modern football boomer who seems hell bent on playing an inefficient brand of football conductive to elite competitive play in the year of 2022. 

[Skinsinparadise]

16 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I am just afraid they float an offer no team could ever refuse...because it is stupid large. A slightly over the top offer to a Wilson is cool

 

I am more a Rivera fan now than I ever was. He has fully earned my respect. I hope Dan can respect Ron's space for at least year...sounds crazy

 

I am not a fan of giving up draft capital for Jimmy G. I guess if he was a FA he wouldn't bother me as much. 

 

I agree with the Jimmy G to McNabb comparison.,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't get the impression that they would overwhelm SF with a big offer for Jimmy G.  Just sounds like if everything else doesn't work they see him as a fallback that's better than Heinicke.

 

We got Breer multiple times saying it, Garafolo, Silver -- all national reporters who are pretty plugged in basically shouting that we are going to shoot hard and for the fences for the top QBs that hit market.  Got my fingers crossed that a QB like that does hit the market -- I am not too worried that they overpay. My main worry is even though they are willing to pay $500 for a big meal at name that high end restaurant but in the end that restaurant never opens for them to buy that meal. 

[kingdaddy]

23 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Its what this franchise always done. For the people who have said we have been rebuilding for 20 years is wrong. We have been trying to win now for 20 years. We have never done a true rebuild. It has driven me crazy 

Still has a 5 year deal. Were entering year 3 with nothing at QB and no clear way to get an elite talent. Either gets 4 years or 6+. Nothing right now shows hes worthy of getting 6+

Nothing? The guy wins a division in a year where he battled cancer and went through 4 QB's and you say he's done nothing to warrant getting a new deal? Year 2 he loses his starter in the 1st half of the 1st game and his defense doesn't show up for 7 weeks after they lose both of their stud pass rushers. Then the team gets crushed with COVID after a great 4 game winning streak that has them in position to make the playoffs again.

Not to mention all that RR has added to this organization in terms of class, respect and leadership. I want to win as much as anyone but lets not forget the **** storm RR walked into when he took this job. I wouldn't be surprised if they gave him a deal like Gruden got in Vegas....10 years.