The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

2 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

You learned nothing from Spurrier.  Hindsight is always 50/50.

 

[Ball Security]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

You laugh, but he has 6Xs as many NFL wins as Urban Meyer.

[Skinsinparadise]

Wow, looks like an easy TD if Taylor looked Terry's way.  it happens.  But Bullock who does good work in his film review, hit that there was multiple cases where Taylor missed that there were open receivers.  

 

 

 

8 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

If we'd gone QB I'm guessing it would have been Tua, unless WFT was super interested in Herbert and nobody caught wind of it. IIRC most of the reporting stated that they weren't really that high on any of the QBs.

 

Hindsight is always 20/20. Herbert was certainly not some super blue chip prospect with almost no holes in his game. There were plenty of questions about him coming out and how well he'd fare in the NFL.

 

forgetting whom, but one reporter said it would have been Herbert.  Mutliple reporters said they weren't high on Tua.   Actually I believe it and it might be purely the injury because Rivera was asked about Tua if I recall in one of Sheehan's interviews of him and Rivera talked about Tua's hip injury and it sounded like Bo Jackson's and it was a concern. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Wow, looks like an easy TD if Taylor looked Terry's way.  it happens.  But Bullock who does good work in his film review, hit that there was multiple cases where Taylor missed that there were open receivers.  

 

 

 

 

forgetting whom, but one reporter said it would have been Herbert.  Mutliple reporters said they weren't high on Tua.   Actually I believe it and it might be purely the injury because Rivera was asked about Tua if I recall in one of Sheehan's interviews of him and Rivera talked about Tua's hip injury and it sounded like Bo Jackson's and it was a concern. 

You were the only one predicting that Herbert might go early to the chargers and were still kind of shocked they pulled the trigger. Nobody had Herbert going in the top half of the draft. He was a borderline day 2 pick. Tua was definitely off the board for us. 

 

In total hindsight, they absolutely should have picked Herbert, but we can do this in every draft.

 

Browns have been swinging at QB since Bernie Kosar, but they're super happy to have Miles Garrett on the roster.

[Skinsinparadise]

13 hours ago, KDawg said:

Dan can still strike. I disagree it wasn’t desperation, though. Dan wanted a franchise guy to sell tickets because he was worried about the position and he did what he did. Time will tell how this plays out.

 

If Howell drops that’s tempting. I don’t think he will. But ya. That would be nice.

 

I'd agree it could be desperation if I didn't read the story about Dan was infatuated with Haskins during the college season.    But agree Dan could still strike and he's as dumb as a rock especially when it comes to QBs.  I suspect based on what i've heard Dan is in his cage right now and won't interfere in this draft but you never know with that moron.

 

I've seen Howell typically either mid first or 2nd round in mocks.  But granted its meaningless and also early.  Will see.   Also there is a chance he doesn't come out.

 

Schrager is fairly plugged in typically, its a good listen below, he gets into veteran QBs, too.  Jimmy G, I hope not.   Worries me that Mayhew has a relationship with that SF FO.  

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Conn]

9 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You were the only one predicting that Herbert might go early to the chargers and were still kind of shocked they pulled the trigger. Nobody had Herbert going in the top half of the draft. He was a borderline day 2 pick. Tua was definitely off the board for us. 

 

In total hindsight, they absolutely should have picked Herbert, but we can do this in every draft.

 

Browns have been swinging at QB since Bernie Kosar, but they're super happy to have Miles Garrett on the roster.

But they’d be happier with Mahomes (similar situation to Herbert where media didn’t expect him to go as high as he did, and even higher would have been even more surprising, of course). 

[Skinsinparadise]

For what its worth here's PFF's current ranking of QBs

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

28 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

You were the only one predicting that Herbert might go early to the chargers and were still kind of shocked they pulled the trigger. Nobody had Herbert going in the top half of the draft. He was a borderline day 2 pick. Tua was definitely off the board for us. 

 

In total hindsight, they absolutely should have picked Herbert, but we can do this in every draft.

 

Browns have been swinging at QB since Bernie Kosar, but they're super happy to have Miles Garrett on the roster.

 

I am not blaming them for not taking Herbert.  Just saying relying on gossip, sounds like if they had to choose between Tua and Herbert, they'd have taken Herbert.

 

The Chargers in the last two decades plus drafted Drew Brees, Philip Rivers and now Herbert.

 

I get the feeling that some have of hey finding that Qb is some wild lottery effort because of our misses.  But our misses are epic and mostly stupid.  We are exceptionally bad at it -- a joke versus the norm.  Almost every other team has at least gotten their Matt Ryan type or Derrick Carr type in the last 20 years.  Some say Kirk is in that conversation.  OK.  Maybe so but they flubbed that so I am not counting it. 

 

Some prop up Aaron Rodgers, Mahomes, etc and suggest yeah good luck -- go fantasize about getting a player like that and act like its reality.   And use that point as a reason to downplay the idea of successfully landing a QB.  Yeah sure a generational QB isn't easy to find in the draft, no doubt.  But a 10-14 type QB isn't some crazy wild fantasy.

 

I recall some of the narratives at the time.   Patrick Ramsey was supposed to be a 2nd round type QB.  Yet Dan fell in love and took him in the first.  Ditto Jason Campbell.  We all know the story about Haskins.  RG3 was a legit swing and miss. 

 

Supposedly Marty Hurney was a big Herbert guy when he was at Carolina.  He went one pick before their pick in that draft.  According to Keim, Hurney feels its his wheelhouse.  I guess we are about to find out.  I am a bit more intrigued with this QB class than others.  I actually think this is the perfect QB class for a likely draft position we will have.  Typically 15-23 or so is no man's land when it comes to QB.  I think this might be a rare draft where that range is actually where a lot of these guys go.

 

I am still watching these guys.  And I'll say of the top 6 I don't have a hell no on any of these guys.  At least not yet.  At least for me, there is no Haskins, Daniel Jones, Rosen, Darnold -- guys that I really didn't like the more I digested them.  With Darnold and Rosen it came to me after the draft not when they were drafted -- I didn't really study either before the draft.  My point is if Hurney has a discerning eye, I don't think its a fantasy that he could fall for one of these guys and won't have to trade the store to get them.  Granted that's just a guess.  But will see. 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

8 hours ago, zskins said:

 

Smart teams just know to swallow their pride. AZ made a mistake. Got a QB again the following year. We made a mistake with Haskins and then again to get Chase instead. We had an opportunity to get a franchise QB and we didn't since Chase was supposed to be the better pick at 2. I get that. But when we haven't had the chance to pick at #2 since 2012 I still think we should have gone QB and not Chase. Sure people here will burn me for saying this but I was not too high on going DE when we needed a franchise QB and Haskins wasn't it. 

 

 

Haskins hadn't flamed out yet though.  We played some weaker defenses at the end of the 2019 season, but Haskins had a couple decent games against the likes of the Giants and Eagles.  I cannot speak for everybody, but I thought Haskins still had a realistic path to develop into a decent starter at that time.   It just wasn't obvious to me that Haskins wasn't the guy yet.

[Skinsinparadise]

Here are the 2020 ratings, posting it because some of those dudes didn't play this season

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

13 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

Haskins hadn't flamed out yet though.  We played some weaker defenses at the end of the 2019 season, but Haskins had a couple decent games against the likes of the Giants and Eagles.  I cannot speak for everybody, but I thought Haskins still had a realistic path to develop into a decent starter at that time.   It just wasn't obvious to me that Haskins wasn't the guy yet.

 

Will see.  He's right now the third string QB in Pittsburgh and I keep reading that they likely go QB shopping this off season.

 

I'd bet my mortgage he flames out or close enough to a flame out.  IMO he's not a good player for reasons I've pointed out (among other people here) many times but to me its his makeup that is the kicker.   I might be able to be talked into him fixing things if he had that will to be great but by many examples and indications he doesn't have that will.

 

It's actually that intangible that i am going to care about a lot when it comes to these young Qbs.  It's not as if no red flags existed about Haskins before the draft as far as maturity-leadership-work ethic.  Conversely, Mac Jones' intangibles were highlighted as special.  Everything being equal, we want a QB who has that "it" factor as far as leadership goes and whose work ethic helps also lead by example. 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[philibusters]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Will see.  He's right now the third string QB in Pittsburgh and I keep reading that they likely go QB shopping this off season.

 

I'd bet my mortgage he flames out or close enough to a flame out.  IMO he's not a good player for reasons I've pointed out (among other people here) many times but to me its his makeup that is the kicker.   I might be able to be talked into him fixing things if he had that will to be great but by many examples and indications he doesn't have that will.

 

It's actually that intangible that i am going to care about a lot when it comes to these young Qbs.  It's not as if no red flags existed about Haskins before the draft as far as maturity-leadership-work ethic.  Conversely, Mac Jones' intangibles were highlighted as special.  Everything being equal, we want a QB who has that "it" factor as far as leadership goes and whose work ethic helps also lead by example. 

 

Sure but I don't know that it was as clear in the 2019-2020 offseason that Haskins wasn't the guy.  As I said, he had a couple solid games at the end of the year.  I was responding to the poster who said we should have drafted Tua or Herbert in 2020, not arguing that things look good for Haskins heading into the 2021-2022 off season.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, philibusters said:

 

Sure but I don't know that it was as clear in the 2019-2020 offseason that Haskins wasn't the guy.  As I said, he had a couple solid games at the end of the year.  I was responding to the poster who said we should have drafted Tua or Herbert in 2020, not arguing that things look good for Haskins heading into the 2021-2022 off season.

 

OK, got it and agree.  Yeah I agree I don't think Rivera could have moved on in 2020 for a QB.  Haskins wasn't hot but at least he teased some in 2019.  He had a good game and a quarter in the mix of that rookie season and that came towards the end.  Haskins was Dan's guy.  So Rivera couldn't just go thanks for the job but we are bailing on Haskins from the jump.

[Skinsinparadise]

I haven't rewatched the game yet but yeah this one is pretty bad too.  Hopefully he can bounce back versus Philly.

 

 

 

[DEASkins]

25 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

OK, got it and agree.  Yeah I agree I don't think Rivera could have moved on in 2020 for a QB.  Haskins wasn't hot but at least he teased some in 2019.  He had a good game and a quarter in the mix of that rookie season and that came towards the end.  Haskins was Dan's guy.  So Rivera couldn't just go thanks for the job but we are bailing on Haskins from the jump.

This conversation usually makes me wonder who Ron in his heart of hearts really wanted to start going into the regular season last year. Would be interesting to know, but as he would probably say, not important 😆

[Koolblue13]

51 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I haven't rewatched the game yet but yeah this one is pretty bad too.  Hopefully he can bounce back versus Philly.

 

 

 

There was a few plays like that. The Oline did a lot better than people are giving credit for. Same with AG.

[petey hodge]

What would be the price we’re willing to pay for Kyler Murray?

 

1) Chase Young

2) Terry 

3) Tress Way

4) Joey Deadeye Slye

 

 

hypothetical, but curious.

[Warhead36]

6 minutes ago, petey hodge said:

What would be the price we’re willing to pay for Kyler Murray?

 

1) Chase Young

2) Terry 

3) Tress Way

4) Joey Deadeye Slye

 

 

hypothetical, but curious.

Our entire roster wouldn't be enough.

[Koolblue13]

Is there an outside chance that any QB might be available that we're not thinking about? 

 

Mariota and Trubisky seem like the only two with any upside and meh.

[mistertim]

30 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Is there an outside chance that any QB might be available that we're not thinking about? 

 

Mariota and Trubisky seem like the only two with any upside and meh.

 

Nobody of note, most likely.

 

Good QBs almost never become available unless they're either really old (Ryan) or they're mostly mediocre and their team has moved on to a better prospect (Mariota, Trubisky). IMO the idea of getting any QB in FA or trade as anything but a bridge to a rookie is probably a fool's errand.

 

In the modern game crappy or mediocre QBs pretty much never become good once they go to another team. Tannehill is one of the very few exceptions, but he also wasn't actually bad in Miami and he also has an unstoppable All Pro running back to help.

 

There are also a few very rare corner cases, like Stafford, where a team trades a good QB because 1) both parties have agreed that it's best, and/or 2) the team has basically said that they want to go into full rebuilding mode.

[Destino]

9 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Wow, looks like an easy TD if Taylor looked Terry's way.  it happens.  But Bullock who does good work in his film review, hit that there was multiple cases where Taylor missed that there were open receivers.  

 

 

 

this happens every game to every QB, and more so when the pass rush gets home.  It’s a consequence of working through progressions with the clock ticking in their heads.  They start on one side of the field and work through their options, they stop when they see one they like.  Only a QB certain that he has time in the pocket is going to work through all his options, so players that come open on the opposite end of the field are often never seen.  Which way the QB is looking also warps the defense so these seemingly wide open players are often open for a reason.

 

fans just expect QBs to see these plays because the better QBs so often manipulate the defense based on presnap reads.  Guys like Brady see a matchup they like and intentionally angle away from them hoping the defense will cheat towards the side of the field they’re facing. Then flip their hips and hit a target on the other side making it seem like they always see the entire field.  That’s not what’s happening though.  QBs can’t look at every option and still get the ball out on time in most plays.  
 

There’s also instances where the OLine is dominating and a QB has all day, but those are exceptions not the rule.

[KDawg]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

this happens every game to every QB, and more so when the pass rush gets home.  It’s a consequence of working through progressions with the clock ticking in their heads.  They start on one side of the field and work through their options, they stop when they see one they like.  Only a QB certain that he has time in the pocket is going to work through all his options, so players that come open on the opposite end of the field are often never seen.  Which way the QB is looking also warps the defense so these seemingly wide open players are often open for a reason.

 

fans just expect QBs to see these plays because the better QBs so often manipulate the defense based on presnap reads.  Guys like Brady see a matchup they like and intentionally angle away from them hoping the defense will cheat towards the side of the field they’re facing. Then flip their hips and hit a target on the other side making it seem like they always see the entire field.  That’s not what’s happening though.  QBs can’t look at every option and still get the ball out on time in most plays.  
 

There’s also instances where the OLine is dominating and a QB has all day, but those are exceptions not the rule.

 

I hit the thank you button on your post but I wanted to post and say thank you. Absolutely right. One of my favorite things is people saying, "HOW DIDN'T HE SEE HIM!?" because the answer is usually, "because he was terrified his larynx was going to wind up in his asshole"

[skins island connection]

Thats what I don't get. TH has the speed to escape the linemen, and he would have much better field vision by rolling out, so why didn't he?

 Does he have the option of changing a play at the line or does he have to go with whats given to him?

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 hours ago, Destino said:

this happens every game to every QB, and more so when the pass rush gets home.

Of course these things happen, but certainly more for some guys.  A lot of guys don't miss the open man and launch a hot air balloon into triple coverage though.

Edited December 15, 2021 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

I hit the thank you button on your post but I wanted to post and say thank you. Absolutely right. One of my favorite things is people saying, "HOW DIDN'T HE SEE HIM!?" because the answer is usually, "because he was terrified his larynx was going to wind up in his asshole"

On the play in question, he had all the time to look around to find his #1 wr.