The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[TheBigJourney]

5 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I don't think his question was unreasonable. No need go to all "RTFM" on him.

It was more directed at those who are misconstruing what these beat reporters are actually saying. In the podcast Keim isn’t reporting that the team won’t take JJ or that Jayden is the consensus QB2, he’s just making an assumption based off a few scouts he talked to. 

[Skinsinparadise]

27 minutes ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

 

Just a point of clarification.

 

Was Keim saying  his league sources believe that Daniels is favored generally by most teams over Maye, or is he saying his sources believe Daniels has the edge to be selected specifically by the Commanders?

 

Keim more or less has been saying when he talks to coaches and personnel people he trusts.  The majority of them prefer Daniels over Maye and not in the neck and neck kind of way but as the dude who is clearly the QB that the personnel or coach likes better.  Similar to the PFN article that was posted yesterday from the dude who said asking around the league seems like Daniels has a clear edge.

 

Keim hasn't expounded so much on this team.  Aside from two things.  He's hinted multiple times he doesn't think they go for McCarthy or at least not at #2. And if he had to guess right now, it would be Daniels. But his theory seems to be since people he trusts (coaches and personnel people) have such a clear preference for Daniels, he'd guess that would likely (but not for sure) filter to this team as well. 

 

But he also doubles down that he doubts this team has made a decision so speculation is purely about preferences in real time that could change.

 

Keim isn't arrogant when it comes to speculation.  He tends to couch it and be conservative.  But often what he is saying has some validity to it.  And knowing his style some, i would guess he has at least a little inkling about what some in that building currently think to go to the extent of saying if he had to guess, he'd guess Daniels.  The fact that other reliable reporters like Breer among others feel the same makes me thing there is at least a little smoke to the idea.

Edited April 2 by Skinsinparadise

[DogofWar1]

25 minutes ago, BurgundyBooger said:

 

Sure there is, by combining performance with feedback from their superiors (in this case, coaches), colleagues, and peers.

And their "subordinates" such as OLine, which maybe you've grouped under peers.

 

Having worked for some ****ty bosses over the years I can tell you how important it is for bosses to have respect for the people they can order to do things.

 

We talk about how people would "run through a brick wall" for some coaches and indeed for QBs it's the same.  While they might be "peers" in some ways, and are, QBs generally do command the offense and therefore are "superiors" to their players (like I wouldn't call Peyton Manning a peer to his OL and WRs).

 

So stuff like sharing NIL deals does carry some weight.  We hear stories of QBs who take the OL out to dinner or buy them rings and their OLs tend to do better.

[mistertim]

10 minutes ago, TheBigJourney said:

It was more directed at those who are misconstruing what these beat reporters are actually saying. In the podcast Keim isn’t reporting that the team won’t take JJ or that Jayden is the consensus QB2, he’s just making an assumption based off a few scouts he talked to. 

 

That's fine, but I think @Skinsinparadise is quite good at providing accurate summaries of what he's listened to, and he's also perfectly capable of making a decision with regards to when and whether to provide those summaries. Probably no need to direct people on what questions they should or shouldn't ask of other posters.

Edited April 2 by mistertim

[alaroche04]

It's still Maye >>> Daniels to me. I want my quarterback to be available on Sundays.  Not holding a clipboard.

 

[Chris 44]

2 hours ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

Wentz gets possibly one last chance under qb guru Andy Reid...

 

XXX

 

The Chiefs signed quarterback Carson Wentz to a one-year deal, Jordan Schultz of the Bleacher Report reports.

 

Wentz will backup Patrick Mahomes, with Chris Oladokun and Ian Book the other quarterbacks on the roster.

 

Wentz, 31, spent last season with the Rams and played two games with one start. He completed 70.8 percent of his passes for 163 yards with two touchdowns and an interception in 2023.

 

The Chiefs will be his fifth team in five years.

 

The Eagles made Wentz the second overall pick in 2016, and he spent five seasons with the team. He then went to the Colts and Commanders before landing in Los Angeles last season.

Wasn't April fools yesterday?    lol

[Ghost of]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

There is no way to measure leadership. Its one of those empty buzzword traits like moxie or poise. 

By this standard, you shouldn't ask teammates and coaches about a guy's leadership.  Yes, it may get thrown around by talking heads but the notion that there are not qualitative descriptions of abilities (that are also very hard to measure from an objective standpoint) is absurd. Performance under pressure was clear with Brady by the time he finished his career at Michigan. I'm sure you can measure certain things like "4th quarter performance within 2 scores" but you can't necessarily measure how beloved by teammates is, or how much of a leader they're perceived to be. Hell, there are guys who've led teams as pretty mediocre players from a statistical standpoint but they got guys to believe in them. Whereas Jay Cutler did not inspire his team, regardless of whether he had a great arm, or was even pretty OK as a QB. 

 

Within certain bounds, I'd say the measures we have are inadequate other than at describing things in a convenient post-hoc fashion.  Why does a guy have great numbers in the 4th quarter within one score?

 

You can call it poise or clutch or leadership or determination but there are discernable non-quantifiable traits that humans have. Give me a formula that describes Napoleon or Alexander's generalship in comparison to lesser leaders bad ones. You can certainly "measure" in the sense of "what tactic seemed to work in this battle?" but how do you measure the Old Guard or Companions fighting skill or courage in comparison to their opponents. Do you set up a spreadsheet for that? What is the advanced metric? Would it not end up being a post-hoc numerical proxy for something ineffable?

 

Ultimately, dismissing things as buzzwords can read as cliched as the hackneyed "he's a winner/moxie" scouting/media reports.

Edited April 2 by Ghost of

[Warhead36]

7 minutes ago, Ghost of said:

By this standard, you shouldn't ask teammates and coaches about a guy's leadership.  Yes, it may get thrown around by talking heads but the notion that there are not qualitative descriptions of abilities (that are also very hard to measure from an objective standpoint) is absurd. Performance under pressure was clear with Brady by the time he finished his career at Michigan. I'm sure you can measure certain things like "4th quarter performance within 2 scores" but you can't necessarily measure how beloved by teammates is, or how much of a leader they're perceived to be. Hell, there are guys who've led teams as pretty mediocre players from a statistical standpoint but they got guys to believe in them. Whereas Jay Cutler did not inspire his team, regardless of whether he had a great arm, or was even pretty OK as a QB. 

 

Within certain bounds, I'd say the measures we have are inadequate other than at describing things in a convenient post-hoc fashion.  Why does a guy have great numbers in the 4th quarter within one score?

 

You can call it poise or clutch or leadership or determination but there are discernable non-quantifiable traits that humans have. Give me a formula that describes Napoleon or Alexander's generalship in comparison to lesser leaders bad ones. You can certainly "measure" in the sense of "what tactic seemed to work in this battle?" but how do you measure the Old Guard or Companions fighting skill or courage in comparison to their opponents. Do you set up a spreadsheet for that? What is the advanced metric? Would it not end up being a post-hoc numerical proxy for something ineffable?

 

Ultimately, dismissing things as buzzwords can read as cliched as the hackneyed "he's a winner/moxie" scouting/media reports.

I think its a qualitative measure in that you either have it or you don't, but you can't MEASURE it. Like ok, how much better of a leader is, say, McCarthy over Nix? 10%? 20%? And what is that based off of? Is a QB a better leader because his team wins more? If that's the case, why not just draft the national champion QB #1 overall every year?

 

And you pretty much never hear of any QB being a bad leader in this stage of the process(except maybe Rattler). Zach Wilson's college teammates raved about him too.

 

That's my point. Its not a quantifiable measure so its mostly just pointless to talk about when evaluating college draft prospects.

[mistertim]

12 minutes ago, alaroche04 said:

It's still Maye >>> Daniels to me. I want my quarterback to be available on Sundays.  Not holding a clipboard.

 

 

I like Maye over Daniels because I think he has more upside, even if he isn't as refined in his footwork and mechanics right now, which is sort of understandable when talking about a guy who has started 2 seasons vs one who has started 5.

 

But I'm getting a sinking feeling that we might go with Daniels. Which wouldn't be the end of the world, as he's a good prospect. But I have enough concerns about him to be dubious as to the overall outlook of his trajectory if we pick him.

[Conn]

41 minutes ago, TheBigJourney said:

It was more directed at those who are misconstruing what these beat reporters are actually saying. In the podcast Keim isn’t reporting that the team won’t take JJ or that Jayden is the consensus QB2, he’s just making an assumption based off a few scouts he talked to. 

SIP isn’t doing that, he’s the resident Official Keim Translator for people who don’t have time for the podcasts. He’s spoken directly to Keim 1-on-1 before, have you? I’ll trust his interpretation, and for the record I think SIP is very good at qualifying all the secondhand info and opinions he passes along with proper context. Excellent, actually. 

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

17 minutes ago, Ghost of said:

By this standard, you shouldn't ask teammates and coaches about a guy's leadership.  Yes, it may get thrown around by talking heads but the notion that there are not qualitative descriptions of abilities (that are also very hard to measure from an objective standpoint) is absurd. Performance under pressure was clear with Brady by the time he finished his career at Michigan. I'm sure you can measure certain things like "4th quarter performance within 2 scores" but you can't necessarily measure how beloved by teammates is, or how much of a leader they're perceived to be. Hell, there are guys who've led teams as pretty mediocre players from a statistical standpoint but they got guys to believe in them. Whereas Jay Cutler did not inspire his team, regardless of whether he had a great arm, or was even pretty OK as a QB. 

 

 

But it's wildly subjective and just leads to more subjective stuff. I've been listening to a lot of back episodes of The New Heights podcast driving to work. When people talk about Mahomes and leadership, they all say, "He grew up in a locker room." I don't really know what that means aside from literally being in a locker room as a kid. But everyone loves him.

 

When people talk about Brady, they all tell the same stories that make him sound like a massive weirdo. He introduces himself as Tom to all the rookies every year in the same way. He is a massive asshole during practices. He makes you work after practice unless his kids are around. But everyone loves him.

 

So from what I can tell, the best leader would be the son of an NBA player who is also a Scientologist.

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

But it's wildly subjective and just leads to more subjective stuff. I've been listening to a lot of back episodes of The New Heights podcast driving to work. When people talk about Mahomes and leadership, they all say, "He grew up in a locker room." I don't really know what that means aside from literally being in a locker room as a kid. But everyone loves him.

 

When people talk about Brady, they all tell the same stories that make him sound like a massive weirdo. He introduces himself as Tom to all the rookies every year in the same way. He is a massive asshole during practices. He makes you work after practice unless his kids are around. But everyone loves him.

 

So from what I can tell, the best leader would be the son of an NBA player who is also a Scientologist.

I think just about every QB in the NFL has leadership qualities. You don't make it that far without being a leader. Beyond that, there are degrees I guess but it just comes down to being good. If you're good, people will follow you.

 

Zach Wilson doesn't suck because he's a bad leader. He's a bad leader because he sucks.

11 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

 

 

But I'm getting a sinking feeling that we might go with Daniels. Which wouldn't be the end of the world, as he's a good prospect. But I have enough concerns about him to be dubious as to the overall outlook of his trajectory if we pick him.

Its probably 50/50. Which is higher than it should be in Daniels's favor. I see reasons why to like him but Maye is just so much more upside as a prospect. Guess we gotta trust GMAP but I don't know...

[CommanderInTheRye]

14 minutes ago, mistertim said:

I'm getting a sinking feeling that we might go with Daniels. Which wouldn't be the end of the world, as he's a good prospect. But I have enough concerns about him to be dubious as to the overall outlook of his trajectory if we pick him.

 

I have similar concerns. Primarily his body frame and his propensity for taking big hits.

 

If we go Daniels, and at this point I think it's a 50-50 proposition, the first thing we need to do is stress to him the importance of protecting himself, by sliding and going out of bounds, when he runs.

 

I'd have a baseball coach go over the fundamentals of sliding technique.

 

I'd also show him cut ups of Russell Wilson in his prime, probably the best running qb at avoiding hits during his heyday.

 

If he takes hits like he did in college he simply won't last a year.

 

However, if he truly commits to protecting himself on the field, he could become one of the most lethal two way weapons in  league history.

 

 

[zCommander]

17 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I like Maye over Daniels because I think he has more upside, even if he isn't as refined in his footwork and mechanics right now, which is sort of understandable when talking about a guy who has started 2 seasons vs one who has started 5.

 

But I'm getting a sinking feeling that we might go with Daniels. Which wouldn't be the end of the world, as he's a good prospect. But I have enough concerns about him to be dubious as to the overall outlook of his trajectory if we pick him.

 

I am hoping they take Maye knowing they have the coaches to correct his footwork and stuff before the season starts. If he is a fast learner that would be ideal. But, if they feel it can't be done and can't wait a year then they will go Daniels even though there is a concern about his frame and inconsistent accuracy to the short and intermediate areas, especially if not throwing on time.

 

The fans will want the #2 QB to be the starting QB. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, TheBigJourney said:

It was more directed at those who are misconstruing what these beat reporters are actually saying. In the podcast Keim isn’t reporting that the team won’t take JJ or that Jayden is the consensus QB2, he’s just making an assumption based off a few scouts he talked to. 

 

I didn't say Keim was reporting anything.   I mentioned what he's hearing right now.  And Keim isn't the type to hit a point based on a bad source where he is just spitballing from something that he heard from just a person or two.   He's been covering this team for eons and its not hard to track what he's gotten right or not or what his style is. 

 

He's said many times, he'd rather say nothing and miss out on something versus say something that is wrong because his reputation is paramount to him.

 

lol, not saying Keim is some saint.  But following this team forever, he's been as close as it gets to being accurate.  Including recently as the coaching search.

 

As for a "few scouts" he's talked to, that's your assumption, that's not a fact.  As Cooley liked to joke back in the day part of the reason why Keim is rarely wrong is he won't say a thing unless he has 7 sources backing it.   Now am sure that's hyperbole but I get the point -- Keim is VERY cautious as to what he says.

 

As for the point in hand, Keim has referenced talking to a number of people (suggesting both coaches and personnel people) and they've been distinctly favoring Daniels over Maye.  Now am I repeating that because that's what I want to hear?  Nope.  I am a Maye over Daniels guy.  But the bread crumbs are what they are, not what i want them to be.

 

Keim hasn't been as hardcore on the McCarthy point.  But he's lightly made the point now a few times that he doesn't expect McCarthy at #2.  Now if they trade down, maybe.

 

Keim is far from on an island on these points.  As i pointed out there are multiple reporters saying the same thing.

 

For those who want to think its not true.  The point I'd hang on is that Keim among others doesn't think this team has made a decision.  Could he be wrong?  Sure. It's also a moving target so what could be true today could be wrong tomorrow.  But Keim is usually on the mark.  And at a minimum he doesn't make things up or just go with a minimal number of sources to make a point.  

 

Edited April 2 by Skinsinparadise

[TheBigJourney]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

But he's lightly made the point now a few times that he doesn't expect McCarthy at #2. 

You don’t “lightly” make a point, you either think they could go JJ at 2 or they won’t. If it’s not a firm statement based on any actual intel then it’s meaningless.

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, TheBigJourney said:

You don’t “lightly” make a point, you either think they could go JJ at 2 or they won’t. If it’s not a firm statement based on any actual intel then it’s meaningless.

 

By lightly means he doesn't make the point strongly but still makes it.   He makes the point about Daniels over Maye among the people he talks to with much more authority.

 

But cool either way.  I am not here to convince you of anything.  If you think Keim is full of crap, cool.   I share for those who care and those that don't just ignore.  People have the option to listen to the same stuff i do.  Some don't have the time and for those who don't, some of them seem to appreciate what I share.   I am not going to please everyone by sharing and that's OK. 

Edited April 2 by Skinsinparadise

[BurgundyBooger]

44 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think its a qualitative measure in that you either have it or you don't, but you can't MEASURE it. Like ok, how much better of a leader is, say, McCarthy over Nix? 10%? 20%? And what is that based off of? Is a QB a better leader because his team wins more? If that's the case, why not just draft the national champion QB #1 overall every year?

 

And you pretty much never hear of any QB being a bad leader in this stage of the process(except maybe Rattler). Zach Wilson's college teammates raved about him too.

 

That's my point. Its not a quantifiable measure so its mostly just pointless to talk about when evaluating college draft prospects.

 

Of course you can measure leadership. Not by percentages or rating scales, but by testimonies from teammates, coaches, and even rivals, and correlating that data with their own performance record, you'll have a pretty good idea. You can always find some exception or outlier, namely an individual who's a winner and everyone raves about his leadership skills (including setting a good example, helping teammates, etc)....only for them to be a poor leader in all actuality. That's rare.

 

Since you've deemed it's a pointless pursuit to discuss it, we'll just talk about what you want to talk about. How's that?

 

 

Edited April 2 by BurgundyBooger

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, BurgundyBooger said:

 

Of course you can measure leadership. Not by percentages or rating scales, but by testimonies from teammates, coaches, and even rivals, and correlating that data with their own performance record, you'll have a pretty good idea. You can always find some exception or outlier, namely an individual who's a winner and everyone raves about his leadership skills (including setting a good example, helping teammates, etc)....only for them to be a poor leader in all actuality. That's rare.

 

 

But how often are QBs dinged for poor leadership? Every single one of them has their teammates rave about em. The only one I can think of is Spencer Rattler this year.

 

Basically, just about every highly touted QB prospect has good leadership. When was the last time you read through the pros and cons of a prospect and it says "bad leader" under cons? It never happens. So its kinda pointless to discuss. We should just work under the assumption that all these highly rated QBs are good leaders. And there is no way to measure if Maye is a better or worse leader than Daniels, or McCarthy etc.

[mistertim]

15 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I am hoping they take Maye knowing they have the coaches to correct his footwork and stuff before the season starts. If he is a fast learner that would be ideal. But, if they feel it can't be done and can't wait a year then they will go Daniels even though there is a concern about his frame and inconsistent accuracy to the short and intermediate areas, especially if not throwing on time.

 

The fans will want the #2 QB to be the starting QB. 

 

Yeah I think it's a legit concern that some coaches might be leaning Daniels due to shorter term thinking about who may be a better immediate starter (though I still think who would be better right off the bat between Maye and Daniels is a toss-up). I wonder what would happen if GMAP and the coaches are on two different pages with GMAP thinking Maye and more long term.

 

As far as the fans, yeah I agree with you there, but at the same time I also think this FO is too smart to let fan sentiment decide something like that. Plus, this is a new coaching staff so they'll get time. If Rivera was still here I'd be much more worried.

[Warhead36]

You take the long term guy when you're in year 1 of a new regime picking #2 overall. You don't take a 24 year old running QB who weights as much as a beanpole.

[SkinsFTW]

18 minutes ago, TheBigJourney said:

If it’s not a firm statement based on any actual intel then it’s meaningless.

 

Everything any of them say is meaningless because the team isn't giving them any information.

[TheGoodBits]

47 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I like Maye over Daniels because I think he has more upside, even if he isn't as refined in his footwork and mechanics right now, which is sort of understandable when talking about a guy who has started 2 seasons vs one who has started 5.

 

But I'm getting a sinking feeling that we might go with Daniels. Which wouldn't be the end of the world, as he's a good prospect. But I have enough concerns about him to be dubious as to the overall outlook of his trajectory if we pick him.

 

I'm in the same boat. Someone posted a heatmap chart here showing QBR in different areas of the field. Daniels was a mediocre passer to everywhere on the field other than when he threw it deep. And if you look at his tape, you see first round, top 10 WRs beating the defense over the top, time and time again. That does not translate to the NFL. 

He's really fast and can change the game with his legs. But he's also thin as a rail and take big hits. 

 

I don't necessarily think he can't or won't be a good NFL QB. But there is a lot of risk involved. And I'd prefer a different direction. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Keim more or less has been saying when he talks to coaches and personnel people he trusts.  The majority of them prefer Daniels over Maye and not in the neck and neck kind of way but as the dude who is clearly the QB that the personnel or coach likes better.  Similar to the PFN article that was posted yesterday from the dude who said asking around the league seems like Daniels has a clear edge.

 

Keim hasn't expounded so much on this team.  Aside from two things.  He's hinted multiple times he doesn't think they go for McCarthy or at least not at #2. And if he had to guess right now, it would be Daniels. But his theory seems to be since people he trusts (coaches and personnel people) have such a clear preference for Daniels, he'd guess that would likely (but not for sure) filter to this team as well. 

 

But he also doubles down that he doubts this team has made a decision so speculation is purely about preferences in real time that could change.

 

Keim isn't arrogant when it comes to speculation.  He tends to couch it and be conservative.  But often what he is saying has some validity to it.  And knowing his style some, i would guess he has at least a little inkling about what some in that building currently think to go to the extent of saying if he had to guess, he'd guess Daniels.  The fact that other reliable reporters like Breer among others feel the same makes me thing there is at least a little smoke to the idea.

I listened to his Maye Pro-Day podcast, and he couldn't stop talking about Daniels.

 

As you know, I really like Keim.  Unlike you, I'm not his agent.  But I do like him. A lot.  

 

I could be very wrong about this, but I get the feeling the people he's talking to and getting the Daniels over Maye from are former league executives and media members who are around the NFL.  Basically, a lot of the same folks who we get information from through the media directly.  And agents.  I doubt he's getting a lot from current scouts or executives, because they're just not going to spill the beans.  

 

And I think, as a whole, that whole group of folks has echo-chambered themselves into loving the dual-threat nature of Daniels and being scared about Maye's inconsistencies.  

 

He has openly said he has not heard word one as to what the team is going to do.  I think he's making a guess they wouldn't take McCarthy at 2, but I didn't get the impression he's sourced that. I think it's a safe bet as well.  He brought up the coaching search at one point as a demonstration where the entire league thought they were going one way, and they ended up going another.  

 

Even Bram has somewhat come around to "I prefer Daniels but it could be either."  I wouldn't be remotely surprised if Keim said something to him off-line to chill on Daniels because it's far from a sure thing.  They work together, Bram produces his podcast through Ampire Media. 

 

JP is the "I'm sure we're selecting Daniels" person at the moment.  

 

The other thing to keep in mind, it is lying season.  Anybody who says anything to anybody has an agenda.

 

What they do, I'm not sure.  I do think there is a better than 50/50 shot we take Maye.  And if we do, the post-mortem on the reporting is going to be interesting. 

[DogofWar1]

Yeah I think where I've ultimately landed is that Daniels, if everything goes right, is probably the highest ceiling.  I can buy it.

 

But nothing ever goes 100% right.  How far off that ceiling do we get for each thing that isn't perfect.

 

It's scary.

 

Daniels has the potential to join Lamar, Vick, and Cunningham as truly transformative dual threat QBs.  But the list of guys who are successful in his style is short, and short for a reason.

 

Indeed, there's an argument to be made that if we rewound to say, 2004, Penix is going ahead of Daniels, as pocket passing was much more valued in those days.