The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[NoCalMike]

3 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Just some food for thought, but we see mentions of Josh Allen and Pat Mahomes holding the ball longer than Sam, where they ultimately make something happen as opposed to take a sack.

 

Obviously those 2 are elite, but having watched the both of them play a lot - often times it’s a simple as everything crashing around them and they step up into an oasis of open green grass and scamper for the first down marker.

 

This is anecdotal, but often times it appears everything is caving in on Sam and there is no oasis of green grass for him to escape to.  That’s not to say I haven’t watched him float his way into a sack before, he definitely has.  But too many times it’s chaotic and there is nowhere to flee.

 

Yes, I've been observing this as well.  I think that while the LT/RT are getting the majority of the criticism, and yes they deserve a lot, the inside of the O-line being so soft is contributing to Howell not having the escape lanes that QB's such as Hurts, Allen, Mahommes etc etc are gifted.  When you see those QBs drop back, most of the pressure on them comes from the DE's but they usually always have wide open space in front of them to take off and run, which is why it feels so "back-breaking" for a defense because you can see the DE's affecting the play, but if the middle of the O-line is holding their blocks, it gives the QB clean escape options every time, something Howell often doesn't have because the entire O-line is getting beat.  It's not like those QB's are scrambling within 2-3 seconds either, they are often dropping back, going through progressions, and then deciding the best option is to run.  For Howell, some people are asking him to make that decision continually within 2 seconds which means the majority of passing options will never make it to where they need to be for a pass anyway.  Can't have it both ways, if you want Howel taking off out of the pocket at the first sign of pressure, then there are going to be a lot of plays bailed on, and he is basically going to be a RB under center which also means a huge increase in taking hits.

Edited October 25, 2023 by NoCalMike

[philibusters]

1 hour ago, The Consigliere said:

 

The Carr Zone

Geno Smith

Garop

Tua

D. Watson's Decline

Brock Purdy's speculative upside

 

The nebulous guys (guys who you don't trust because of outlier good seasons this year):

Baker

Goff

 

 

I feel like you are underselling Tua and Goff who are both probably top 5 MVP candidates 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

3 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

Well I truly don't believe anything Shadey says about anything. Broken clock can still be right, but this guy is not someone I would ever call right about anything. If anything this makes me want to give EB more time cause if Shadey hates him he must have been doing something right. 

McCoy has definitely tried too hard to get attention as a media personality with some of his hot takes.

 

But I’ll be damned if his comments on EB don’t hit home now 7 weeks into his stint as a playcaller.

 

I was hopeful with his hiring, figuring how can he be worse than Turner.  I dismissed the fact that he’d been turned down for so many head coaching opportunities.  My thought was while he may not be a guy you want as the face of your franchise, he’s had to have picked up a wealth of knowledge in his time with Reid.

 

I’ve been patient as there have been glimpses to be hopeful about, but things have only gotten worse with time - this past Sunday being the cherry on top.  Pains me to say McCoy’s comments had substance and now relevance, but it is what it is.

Edited October 25, 2023 by BatteredFanSyndrome

[Skinsinparadise]

 

4 hours ago, KDawg said:

We are the 8th best offensive line.

 

Per PFF.

 

8th.

 

I’ve already ordered my Wylie pro bowl jersey 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

 

[Daniel.redskins]

I feel bad for Howell. This week it seems fans/media have really turned a corner against him. Based on what I'm hearing, I would bet he only has one game left. If he gets sacked 5 times by Philly (highly likely) I think Ron puts Brissett in. Ron and EB will care more about their name than developing a young QB.  

If Howell was a first round pick, the perception would be completely different. He is top 10 in passing yards and touchdowns with a 4-4 career record. Not fair for Howell, but it's looking towards a very short career in the NFL. 

[NewCliche21]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Was Rivera put into concussion protocol after this? Because that or he's drunk.

[Warhead36]

Wait, Larsen is still on our roster? I'd definitely start him. IIRC he was pretty solid last year. I mean, he has to be better than Nick "swinging" Gates.

[NewCliche21]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

Wait, Larsen is still on our roster? I'd definitely start him. IIRC he was pretty solid last year. I mean, he has to be better than Nick "swinging" Gates.

 

My son is 8 and and ****ing hates Gates. He's just started playing Madden and Gates gets hurt literally every game in his franchise. Or he'd draw a penalty. The level of "OH COME ON GATES" coming out of his mouth is mind-boggling.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

Just now, NewCliche21 said:

 

My son is 8 and and ****ing hates Gates.

I’m 42 and I ****ing hate Gates.

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

My son is 8 and and ****ing hates Gates. He's just started playing Madden and Gates gets hurt literally every game in his franchise. Or he'd draw a penalty. The level of "OH COME ON GATES" coming out of his mouth is mind-boggling.

Yeah he's becoming the C version of Stephon Heyer. 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, NewCliche21 said:

 

My son is 8 and and ****ing hates Gates. He's just started playing Madden and Gates gets hurt literally every game in his franchise. Or he'd draw a penalty. The level of "OH COME ON GATES" coming out of his mouth is mind-boggling.

 

But Ron among others keeps saying he brings a needed attitude to the unit.   He's apparently super cool -- but can't play. 😢

 

 

[zCommander]

50 minutes ago, Daniel.redskins said:

I feel bad for Howell. This week it seems fans/media have really turned a corner against him. Based on what I'm hearing, I would bet he only has one game left. If he gets sacked 5 times by Philly (highly likely) I think Ron puts Brissett in. Ron and EB will care more about their name than developing a young QB.  

If Howell was a first round pick, the perception would be completely different. He is top 10 in passing yards and touchdowns with a 4-4 career record. Not fair for Howell, but it's looking towards a very short career in the NFL. 

 

Ron said he is committed to Howell. And he should be. If he starts Brissett then that will signify to the new owners and everyone else that he made a bad decision and a failed one by naming Howell the starter before camp. 

[NewCliche21]

19 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah he's becoming the C version of Stephon Heyer. 

 

When we got rid of Casey Rabach, it was one of the best free agent moves ever. And now we have . . .this.

 

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But Ron among others keeps saying he brings a needed attitude to the unit.   He's apparently super cool -- but can't play. 😢

 

 

 

Which is the equivalent of, "Don't look at the picture man, she's funny I swear!"

[Skinsinparadise]

7 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

Ron said he is committed to Howell. And he should be. If he starts Brissett then that will signify to the new owners and everyone else that he made a bad decision and a failed one by naming Howell the starter before camp. 

 

He also when cornered on the point yesterday in his press conference wouldn't committ that Howell would be the starter for the rest of the season.  that point was noticed and discussed some by beat guys who were surprised that Ron both used Howell as his excuse for being 3-4 -- we got a young Qb but that's good so bear with us -- while also not committing to him being the starter for the rest of the season.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I listened to Mark Bullock on Galdi's podcast.  He was less critical of the play calling than others have been. I'm not going to go into it, but it was interesting and made sense. As in most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.   If you're interested, go listen to Galdi's podcast from today. 

 

Listening to Bram and Keim, they were talking about the run game, and Keim said they were averaging something like 2.2 yards per carry in the first half.  Bram's point (which makes sense) is they need to find a way to run better so they can run more and take some of the pressure off of Howell.  I get his point. 

 

I would love that to be true.  The question I have is if they have the ability to do that.  If they don't have the OL to average at least 4 yards a carry, then they need to not bang their head on the wall, and try something else.  I really don't care what that is.  But you CAN'T run for 2.2 yards per attempt in the first half and keep at it because every single time you run you then put Sam into a known passing situation, and then he gets squished, just like grape.

 

So, they need to evaluate and see if they think it's scheme, OL, RBs, play-calling or what which is causing the run game to completely suck.  Or all of the above.  If it's anything other than "scheme" or "play-calling" which they can fix, they need to run only occasionally and find other ways to take the pressure off of Howell.

 

I don't care which one.  But they CAN'T just do what they've been doing.  It's not working, it's not going to work, and it's part of the reason Howell is being crunched.  Instead of being a help to the young QB, it's the opposite.    

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He also when cornered on the point yesterday in his press conference wouldn't committ that Howell would be the starter for the rest of the season.  that point was noticed and discussed some by beat guys who were surprised that Ron both used Howell as his excuse for being 3-4 -- we got a young Qb but that's good so bear with us -- while also not committing to him being the starter for the rest of the season.

Ron is also saying this is a young team.  He's lost control of reality.  This isn't a young team, it's a veteran team.  And there's no excuse to the defense sucking, they've almost all been together for at least 3 years, if not 4, with the same DC. 

 

He's just saying things to say things.  I wish he would just shut up.  And resign.  

Edited October 25, 2023 by Voice_of_Reason

[Skinsinparadise]

17 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I listened to Mark Bullock on Galdi's podcast.  He was less critical of the play calling than others have been. I'm not going to go into it, but it was interesting and made sense. As in most things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.   If you're interested, go listen to Galdi's podcast from today. 

 

Listening to Bram and Keim, they were talking about the run game, and Keim said they were averaging something like 2.2 yards per carry in the first half.  Bram's point (which makes sense) is they need to find a way to run better so they can run more and take some of the pressure off of Howell.  I get his point. 

 

I would love that to be true.  The question I have is if they have the ability to do that.  If they don't have the OL to average at least 4 yards a carry, then they need to not bang their head on the wall, and try something else.  I really don't care what that is.  But you CAN'T run for 2.2 yards per attempt in the first half and keep at it because every single time you run you then put Sam into a known passing situation, and then he gets squished, just like grape.

 

So, they need to evaluate and see if they think it's scheme, OL, RBs, play-calling or what which is causing the run game to completely suck.  Or all of the above.  If it's anything other than "scheme" or "play-calling" which they can fix, they need to run only occasionally and find other ways to take the pressure off of Howell.

 

 

Keim I believe in that same podcast or the one prior blamed the run game struggles on the scheme-O line citing the RBs are making something out of nothing where there are no holes.

 

Yeah I know Bullock is with Logan mostly on saying the O line isn't that bad, where to them Howell is the problem with protections, though they are both semi polite as to how they make that point.

 

17 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

Ron is also saying this is a young team.  He's lost control of reality.  This isn't a young team, it's a veteran team.  And there's no excuse to the defense sucking, they've almost all been together for at least 3 years, if not 4, with the same DC. 

 

He's just saying things to say things.  I wish he would just shut up.  And resign.  

 

Keim said on one of his appearances I think it was Sheehan that Ron's sell which is hey I got a young QB, young TV, so give me a break look to the future, not the present is the same one he's selling behind the scenes to ownership.

 

The problem with that sale is the defense isn't corporating with his point.  to me that point he's need the defense to play well and say give me a break on the offense, just give it time.  But that narrative hasn't played out so it seems like he doesn't know what to do aside from sticking to his talking point even though it makes no sense. 

 

I agree with Danny below. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

Commanders' early woes leading to late headaches

John Keim, ESPN Staff Writer

 

ASHBURN, Va. -- The Washington Commanders' problems stretch far.

The defense allows too many big plays. The offense takes too many sacks. The team makes too many mistakes. And their inability to start fast in games remains the crucial reason why another season has started poorly.

They excel at digging holes but struggle to emerge from them. That's been the case under coach Ron Rivera and in nearly every game this season. It's a big reason why they're 3-4 and have lost four of their past five heading into Sunday's game against the 6-1 Philadelphia Eagles (1 p.m. ET, Fox).

"It's hard to play catch-up," Washington receiver Terry McLaurin said.

 

It was the same story in Sunday's 14-7 loss to the New York Giants. Washington's defense allowed both scores and 256 yards in the first half. Meanwhile, Washington's offense generated zero points, 46 yards and allowed five sacks.

They have a new offense with a coordinator in Eric Bieniemy who, though he held the title for five years in Kansas City, is in charge of the entire offensive operation -- including calling all the plays -- for the first time in his career.

"I've been fine with what we've tried to do offensively," Rivera said.

 

...It's no wonder the franchise finds itself with a losing record after seven games for the fifth season in a row.

Washington is a combined 10-18 after seven games in Rivera's four seasons. They're a combined 15-14 after that point.

Bieniemy's booming voice could often be heard shouting "finish!" to backs and receivers during training camp practices. That's what the Commanders haven't done well enough in games.

"It's about finishing," McLaurin said. "You can make it close, you can make it interesting, but if you don't finish, you're not going to win these tough games."

Washington has trailed at halftime in five of their seven games. The Commanders rallied to win the first two -- against the Arizona Cardinals and Denver Broncos -- but have lost the last three. They nearly overcame a 27-3 halftime deficit against the Chicago Bears but ultimately lost 40-20.

 

Washington's defense has allowed 27 points -- three touchdowns and two field goals -- on the opening drive of the game. Those five scores allowed on the first series match the Commanders' season total in 2022 when they allowed two touchdowns.

The Commanders' offense has been equally unproductive. They have scored 10 points on their first possession. In the first quarter of games, Washington ranks 26th in yards gained, 23rd in points per game and 31st in yards per carry (3.1). Howell ranks 28th in first-half QBR.

On third down, they have allowed a 76.9% conversion rate on the opening drive. The offense has converted just 33.3% of their own.

 

..."We need to make sure that we can find a way to have early success," Bieniemy said. "For whatever reason, when you're establishing building a culture and you're trying to get everyone on board with everything, sometimes it's easy to go back to what you're used to. Sometimes it gets easy when things don't go right, it's easy to say, well damn, here we go again."

On Sunday, McLaurin said the offense was slow to adjust to the Giants' defense. He was targeted once in the first half. And for a game in which New York blitzed Howell often (on 22 of his 49 total dropbacks and 11 of his first 20, according to ESPN Stats & Information), they did not throw a fade pass until late in the third quarter. McLaurin caught it for a 27-yard gain.

"It kind of came a little late, but it gave us some momentum and my teammates always asked me, we need a play from me, a play from you," McLaurin said. "I would definitely like to see us continue to get those up early because I think it really forces defenses to play more honest. They can't blitz and the safeties are at 10, 12 yards. They can't do that if you're beating them down the field. I think we saw that."

 

..."We have found a young quarterback that gives us an opportunity," Rivera said.

 

But the defense ranks 19th in scoring and 17th in yards allowed in the second half of games. They're tied for first with 13 plays allowed of 25 yards or more in the first half and tied for fifth with 10 such plays allowed in the second half.

"We've had some ups and downs," Washington defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio said earlier this month. "We've had some great moments and we've had some moments that are a little bit disappointing. The best is yet to come for our group. I love the fact that we are a relentless group. We're a group that's stuck together and we're working through some of the issues that were the problem. We'll come out on the other side. I feel very confident about that."

They need to, otherwise big changes could occur after the season. And if Washington wants to enjoy a good second half, it starts with playing better in the first.

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/38735219/commanders-early-woes-leading-late-headaches

 

 

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim I believe in that same podcast or the one prior blamed the run games struggles on the scheme-O line citing the RBs are making something out of nothing where there are no holes.

It was that one.  I've said the OL is not able to run bock for about a month.  I certainly don't need any convincing.  I just wanted to see it happen before declaring it as fact.  It has happened, it is fact.

 

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

Yeah I know Bullock is with Logan mostly on saying the O line isn't that bad, Howell is the problem, though they are both semi polite as to how they make that point.

I think you read something into my post which wasn't there.  I never insinuated Bullock was saying the OL was good.  Just that he didn't think the play calling was quick as much of a train wreck as a lot of people thought it was.  Take that for whatever it's worth.  I somewhat disagree with him.  But I also see his point.  

 

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Keim said on one of his appearances I think it was Sheehan that Ron's sell which is hey I got a young QB, young TV, so give me a break look to the future, not the present is the same one he's selling behind the scenes to ownership.

 

The problem with that sale is the defense isn't corporating with his point.  to me that point he's need the defense to play well and say give me a break on the offense, just give it time.  But that narrative hasn't played out so it seems like he doesn't know what to do aside from sticking to his talking point even though it makes no sense. 

 

That is CLEARLY Ron's intent.  But it's SO fantastically transparent, and so fantastically wrong, it's not going to work.  

 

And you're exactly right: if the defense was lights out and the offense was up and down with a 23 year old QB, an off-season he could blame on previous ownership (to a point), and a new OC and scheme, his point would have some merit.

 

The defense has been an utter disappointment.  

 

The draft class is averaging like 47 seconds of combined playing time per game.  The FA acquisitions seem to be no better, and maybe worse, than the guys who they replaced.

 

There is literally no world that exists where Josh is going to see this train wreck and come to any other conclusion than it's time to do things very differently. Ron can flap his gums and spin whatever narrative he wants.  The facts are the facts. And they are undisputed.  (As Kevin Bacon said so eloquently in A Few Good Men.)

 

Absent a 7 game winning streak starting next week.  Which I find massively doubtful.  

[DWinzit]

4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Asked if Larsen might be used more? So he has been used? Because I didn't realize he has even seen the field.

 

If they had a serious desire to win now, they would have already started Larsen...and have tried Lucas.

 

If they want to play for the future, they should have Strom in the lineup. 

[kingdaddy]

How bout some more two TE sets to help with run blocking and pass protection? Rotate Samuel and Dotson. 

 

[Stihl89]

 

[Conn]

5 hours ago, Daniel.redskins said:

I feel bad for Howell. This week it seems fans/media have really turned a corner against him. Based on what I'm hearing, I would bet he only has one game left. If he gets sacked 5 times by Philly (highly likely) I think Ron puts Brissett in. Ron and EB will care more about their name than developing a young QB.  

If Howell was a first round pick, the perception would be completely different. He is top 10 in passing yards and touchdowns with a 4-4 career record. Not fair for Howell, but it's looking towards a very short career in the NFL. 

Nah. The only thing Rivera can hold on to in order to justify his employment continuing into the future is developing Howell. It won’t work, but it’s his one Ace in the hole. Howell only hits the bench due to injury imo. He needs to be able to blame the growing pains of the inexperienced young QB or even in his wildest dreams he’s toast. 

[Skinsinparadise]

The third in run blocking is even more ridiculous as to the odd love affair that some statsicians have with this O line.  Feels like an odd joke.   lol, it just looks to people like us (most of us) Keim, Cooley, Jay and some others who follow the team that the O line is struggiling to open holes.  But apparently they are opening holes like the 1980s hogs -- and those bums Brian Robinson, Antonio Gibson just don't know what to do with these massive openings. 

 

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

The Commanders’ struggling offensive line could be due for a change

 

 

Two days before the Commanders’ loss to the New York Giants, Coach Ron Rivera said his offensive line had begun to show more consistency and that the trust between the front five and quarterback Sam Howell “will be there eventually.”

 

 

But after another six sacks and 12 hits on Howell last weekend — many of which were the O-line’s fault — Rivera’s tune has changed.

 

“We’re looking at a lot of things right now … as far as what we want to do going forward with the offensive line,” he said Wednesday.

Rivera declined to provide specifics. Left guard Saahdiq Charles is dealing with a calf strain that kept him out of practice Wednesday and could affect his status Sunday against the Eagles.

 

Rivera also didn’t rule out the possibility of other personnel changes, including at center. When asked about the position, he said the team was “discussing and talking about … things that can help us,” adding, "I don’t take anything off the table.”

 

The Commanders remade their offensive line in the offseason, adding center Nick Gates on a three-year, $16.5 million contract to replace Chase Roullier, who has since retired. They also signed right tackle Andrew Wylie to a three-year, $24 million contract, elevated Charles to left guard and moved Sam Cosmi inside to right guard. Charles Leno Jr. is the starting line’s lone holdover at his same position, left tackle.

The performance of the new front five raised concerns in training camp and the preseason. But with the team’s change in scheme, play-caller (offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy) and quarterback, there was an expectation it would need some time to iron out the wrinkles.

 

“It’s all part of the development and growth, and we’re going to have growing pains,” Rivera said in early August. “It’s not going to be easy. Nobody said it would be. But I do expect us to get better and better every day. I expect us to get better and better when we start playing.”

Although Howell has been at fault for many of the 40 sacks he has taken, Washington’s line is the only one in the NFL with three starters who have each allowed at least 15 pressures and three sacks through Week 7, according to the website TruMedia. Gates, Wylie and Charles have combined to allow 12 sacks and 60 pressures.

 

Against the Giants on Sunday, Gates gave up a sack on Howell’s first dropback and, according Pro Football Focus, allowed six pressures. New York had been among the more blitz-heavy teams in the league in the first six weeks of the season. Against the Commanders, it turned up the pressure even more, sending five or more rushers on 55.1 percent of its dropbacks to generate 26 total pressures, according to TruMedia. Nose tackle Dexter Lawrence accounted for eight of them, including four against Gates.

 

More troubling is that Washington has little help behind its starters.

 

...Benching Gates would come with more significant implications. His contract includes $8 million guaranteed. Should the team look to move on after the season, it would save only about $133,000 and carry about $5.3 million against its salary cap whether he’s on the roster or not, according to the website Over the Cap.

 

Gates would also become the Commanders’ second offseason acquisition to be benched this season. The team sat first-round rookie cornerback Emmanuel Forbes Jr. during its loss to the Chicago Bears in Week 6 after he allowed multiple big completions when targeted in coverage and missed key tackles. Forbes didn’t play against the Atlanta Falcons in Week 7 and played only five snaps against the Giants.

 

Washington’s interior offensive line, especially the center position, has been ravaged by injuries in recent years. Tyler Larsen proved instrumental when Roullier went down in each of the past two seasons, but he too suffered season-ending injuries both years, to his Achilles’ tendon in 2021 and his knee in 2022.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2023/10/26/commanders-offensive-line-center/

Edited October 26, 2023 by Skinsinparadise