All things defense

[Warhead36]

I still like Allen and Payne. I wouldn't trade either unless the offer was too good to pass up.

 

Remember when you trade a guy, you then have to spend resources to replace them(either cap space or draft picks). You're playing whack a mole instead of actually upgrading your roster.

[Est.1974]

6 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I still like Allen and Payne. I wouldn't trade either unless the offer was too good to pass up.

 

Remember when you trade a guy, you then have to spend resources to replace them(either cap space or draft picks). You're playing whack a mole instead of actually upgrading your roster.

I wouldn’t push for a trade, I just wouldn’t discount it being a real possibility under a new GM. 

[RandyHolt]

Before we start talking about Payne and Allen struggles trades having to burn picks to replace them etc... instead of re-inventing the wheel why not just try a new voice in the room first (now), since all signs point to that needing to happen for close to years now? We had to trade sell at a loss Will Jackson a player JDR wanted and take a 9M cap hit to have a viable D for half of one of his 4 seasons. JDR cannot even find the right personnel for his schemes, and cant find schemes to maximize his personnel. He is failing in every way possible.

 

While Payne or Allen may have fat cat disease I think its more likely they hate JDR and are sandbagging waiting for him to get axed vs suddenly finding they cannot or will not try for sacks.

 

Del Rio couldn't smooth a silk sheet if he had a hot date with a babe... I lost my train of thought.

Edited November 16, 2023 by RandyHolt

[method man]

10 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

I still like Allen and Payne. I wouldn't trade either unless the offer was too good to pass up.

 

Remember when you trade a guy, you then have to spend resources to replace them(either cap space or draft picks). You're playing whack a mole instead of actually upgrading your roster.

You do but I think we have replacements already on the roster. Ridgeway and Mathis can take over the NT position and Payne can play the three tech and spend more time rushing the passer vs eat double teams. You can use the $9M in cap space and the Day 2 pick you’d get to pull in a couple quality starters

14 hours ago, Silvernon said:

Stop it guys.....you don't trade Payne or Allen. 

 

Contract wise you can only move.on from Allen and you probably wait until after the '24 season in the last year of his deal (where there is $6M dead cap).

 

1.5-2.5 more years of Allen. 

What's the issue here?

 

You don't need the cap enough to make the move. Howell's contract will hit '25-'26 and after. No other player warrants a big extension.

 

Kam, Cosmi and Jamin should get second deals, but they won't be top tier contracts. Maybe St-Juste too, but I would rather Fuller get the CB2 spot.

 

I'm not interested in teams running all over this team...we've seen that in recent past before the DTs improved, and it was not enjoyable to watch. 

BSJ is less of a playmaker than Kendall but is the better player in my opinion. Out of the two, he is better able to challenge #1 receivers and can also play the nickel. Kendall is also old. He is a guy I would, for sure, look to extend. I think, with better coaching, he’ll figure out how to be less handsy

Edited November 16, 2023 by method man

[DWinzit]

I have a hard time putting any faith or expectations in Mathis until he shows me something...anything

[method man]

27 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I have a hard time putting any faith or expectations in Mathis until he shows me something...anything

 

Then Ridgeway is your starter and Mathis is your backup. If you like neither guy, a quality starting NT is something relatively easy to find in FA

Edited November 16, 2023 by method man

[DWinzit]

6 minutes ago, method man said:

 

Then Ridgeway is your starter and Mathis is your backup. If you like neither guy, a quality starting NT is something relatively easy to find in FA

I agree with your points. I like Ridgeway, Payne can play most positions and Mathis has shown the ability in college...just nothing from him in two years. Would love to see him start being productive!

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

48 minutes ago, method man said:

BSJ is less of a playmaker than Kendall but is the better player in my opinion. Out of the two, he is better able to challenge #1 receivers and can also play the nickel. Kendall is also old. He is a guy I would, for sure, look to extend. I think, with better coaching, he’ll figure out how to be less handsy

Perhaps BSJ could thrive with better coaching, but I’d prefer Fuller all things being close to equal.  He’s been handsy since day one, it’s part of his DNA.  Very Richard Sherman like minus actually being a lockdown playmaker.

[Warhead36]

St. Juste is an enigma. His coverage isn't bad most of the time, but his ball skills are non existent and he's super physical, so teams aren't afraid to go at him. They know that worst case its an incompletion but you also have a very high chance of a DPI/ilegal contact. He got away with it in the Denver 2 pt conversion throw, but got bit by DK last Sunday. His only interception was just a complete duck thrown by Ridder right to him when he was basically all by himself in the end zone. But overall, he's not a bad player. I actually wouldn't mind resigning him to a modest deal since he's eligible for extension after this year, but its gonna be reliant on who the new D Coord is and how he fits into the system.

[UK Skins]

5 hours ago, DWinzit said:

I have a hard time putting any faith or expectations in Mathis until he shows me something...anything

 

I'm sure I saw Mathis on Sunday, can't remember the play but remember noting the name

[RandyHolt]

Its not fair but I have kind of written off Mathis. Not this fault, I like the player I just didn't like the pick into a position of strength in the 2nd round so I am jaded.  A run stopper jogging off after the 1st 1st and 10 of the day and then only see him on 4th and 1s after a timeout... 2nd rounder on a defensive player should be damn close to an all down guy.

 

His career has been derailed by injury coupled with being buried on the depth chart.. I too haven't seen him make a notable play.  I know he recovered a fumble at the goal line vs Philly at the bottom of the pile, but nothing at all that I have seen. If he was a true block eating NT so that Mike can eat, I would notice that. I think its not just him but Allen and Payne too are told to rush in lanes occupy blockers etc.. JDR doing our front 4 NO favors in his non aggressive scheme.

Edited November 17, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Silvernon]

2 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

Its not fair but I have kind of written off Mathis. Not this fault, I like the player I just didn't like the pick into a position of strength in the 2nd round so I am jaded.  A run stopper jogging off after the 1st 1st and 10 of the day and then only see him on 4th and 1s after a timeout... 2nd rounder on defensive player should be damn close to an all down guy.

 

His career has been derailed by injury coupled with being buried on the depth chart.. I too haven't seen him make a notable play.  I know he recovered a fumble at the goal line vs Philly at the bottom of the pile, but nothing at all that I have seen. If he has a true block eating NT so that Mike can eat, I would notice that. I think its not just him but Allen and Payne too are told to rush in lanes occupy blockers etc.. JDR doing out front 4 NO favors in his non aggressive scheme.

 

That pick was questioned at the time and only rational if they were moving on from Payne, but they didn't.

 

Mathis is clearly a bust.

 

The 2nd round should be reserved for a starter and he is one the three worst players of that round. 

 

It's awful any way you look at it: depth chart, team needs, available talent.

 

9 hours ago, method man said:

BSJ is less of a playmaker than Kendall but is the better player in my opinion. Out of the two, he is better able to challenge #1 receivers and can also play the nickel. Kendall is also old. He is a guy I would, for sure, look to extend. I think, with better coaching, he’ll figure out how to be less handsy

 

I don't see that. There have been a handful of plays that Fuller would want back, but otherwise it's been an incredibly strong season.

 

While I didn't mind re-signing Fuller, he was definitely not someone that I thought was going to be as good as he has been.

 

For context: I was part of the crowd that was okay with getting rid of him for Alex Smith, which had me in the small minority, and he wasn't great in Kansas City. This second time through he has established himself as a very good #2 corner in this league.

 

The plays that he makes on screens and the running game are very impressive. And I think his coverage has been very solid. He's going to get beat by the best guys because he's not a true number one.

 

To me, it's been obvious that Fuller and Kurl have been the best players on defense this year. And that's good, but definitely not a great thing.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Silvernon

[AlwaysBeRedskins2Me]

Washington's defense is currently the number one option on fantasy waiver wires. That just blows my mind. Yes, the Giants offense stinks but HELLO our defense is completely and utterly atrocious! There aren't adjectives strong enough to accurately describe just how pathetic this defense is. However just because we're playing the Giants, we will have a phenomenal day?? Give me a break. Biggest way for fantasy D's to score? Touchdowns. Well we have zero defensive touchdowns all season long. Next best thing? Forcing turnovers. They get you 2 points a pop. Well guess what? We practically never ever force turnovers! Sacks produce one point apiece but our opponents QBs seem to have enough time to change the oil on a F150. So the only thing they " might " accomplish is keeping the score down and yards given up down. Which is a good thing but not even close to good enough to start in fantasy. And don't get me started on the current Giants making us look like crap situation. I'm starting my fantasy Dallas defense vs a shaky Bryce Young. Maybe Washington 's D/ST will prove me wrong but I highly doubt it.

[RVAskins]

I know it's easy to complain about the players and they should be held to a high standard but I think it's coaching that is holding us back. If we had a more innovative DC, we would win more games.

[philibusters]

We are 31st out of 32 in points per game allowed and 29th out of 32th in yards per game allowed.  Derrick Forrest and Cody Barton are the only starters who have missed significant time.  I was a Jack Del Rio supporter going into the year, but I have lost confidence in him.

36 minutes ago, RVAskins said:

I know it's easy to complain about the players and they should be held to a high standard but I think it's coaching that is holding us back. If we had a more innovative DC, we would win more games.

 

I definitely think a lot of it falls on the coaching staff (like the majority of the blame).  There is no doubt that at times, the players did not execute the scheme well, but its the coaches staff to train them to execute it.

[MrJL]

44 minutes ago, AlwaysBeRedskins2Me said:

Washington's defense is currently the number one option on fantasy waiver wires. That just blows my mind. Yes, the Giants offense stinks but HELLO our defense is completely and utterly atrocious! There aren't adjectives strong enough to accurately describe just how pathetic this defense is. However just because we're playing the Giants, we will have a phenomenal day?? Give me a break. Biggest way for fantasy D's to score? Touchdowns. Well we have zero defensive touchdowns all season long. Next best thing? Forcing turnovers. They get you 2 points a pop. Well guess what? We practically never ever force turnovers! Sacks produce one point apiece but our opponents QBs seem to have enough time to change the oil on a F150. So the only thing they " might " accomplish is keeping the score down and yards given up down. Which is a good thing but not even close to good enough to start in fantasy. And don't get me started on the current Giants making us look like crap situation. I'm starting my fantasy Dallas defense vs a shaky Bryce Young. Maybe Washington 's D/ST will prove me wrong but I highly doubt it.

 

we held the Giants to 14 points last time and I think we got three turnovers

[The Hangman- C_Hanburger]

16 minutes ago, philibusters said:

the players did not execute the scheme well, but its the coaches staff to train them to execute it.

That's what gets me...what changed scheme wise from last year? Players are the same. We jettisoned Jackson= Addition by Subtraction. So Forbes wasn't coached up? I read somewhere from a player that there is ALLOT of freelancing looking for turnovers..if that is true..that's 100% on coaching prioritizing the WRONG thing.

 

I think it's too late to recover...I honestly think Young was a liability and Sweat is/was replaced effectively with backups....we "could" get a clue and play some defense.

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 11/15/2023 at 3:24 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I still think the reason is we over used them in the first part of the season and they are banged up or just worn out.  Mathis and Obada both going to the IR meant they had to essentially play the entire game.  
 

We didn’t have a 5th rotational DT who cooks really play.  Which I’m not going to kill then over.  But it was unfortunate. 

[philibusters]

13 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

That's what gets me...what changed scheme wise from last year? Players are the same. We jettisoned Jackson= Addition by Subtraction. So Forbes wasn't coached up? I read somewhere from a player that there is ALLOT of freelancing looking for turnovers..if that is true..that's 100% on coaching prioritizing the WRONG thing.

 

I think it's too late to recover...I honestly think Young was a liability and Sweat is/was replaced effectively with backups....we "could" get a clue and play some defense.

 

1.  Giving up more big plays:  Some of this is freelancing, some of its other teams making more plays, and some its worse execution from us (not due to freelancing).  If you look at just the defense success rate, this defense is just a bit below average.  However while success rate is a good predictor of future play because it tells you what it happening on a down by down basis, it downplays big plays (whether you give up a 60 yard TD or 10 yard completion for a first down, both count the same).  Its definitely worth noting that even success rate is significantly down from last year, but the big plays are turning a mediocre defense into a terrible one.

 

2.  Some players not playing as well as last year

[Voice_of_Reason]

39 minutes ago, MrJL said:

 

we held the Giants to 14 points last time and I think we got three turnovers

We let the giants rack up 250 yards of offense in a half.  The reason they didn’t score 45 is because they are actively the personification of suck.  They **** themselves in the foot over and over.  I give our defense credit for being on the field when they tries to self destruct.  
 

But they didn’t really do anything to stop them .  

[RandyHolt]

1 hour ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

We let the giants rack up 250 yards of offense in a half.  The reason they didn’t score 45 is because they are actively the personification of suck.  They **** themselves in the foot over and over.  I give our defense credit for being on the field when they tries to self destruct.  
 

But they didn’t really do anything to stop them .  

Its notable we also lost to the lowly Giants. Yet another L chalked up on JDRs resume.

 

Back then our offense was TERRIBLE. JDR needed to be coming out and trying to pitch shutouts from the first drive to do his part. Instead the Giants were ahead 14-0 at half time.

[Voice_of_Reason]

17 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Its notable we also lost to the lowly Giants. Yet another L chalked up on JDRs resume.

 

Back then our offense was TERRIBLE. JDR needed to be coming out and trying to pitch shutouts from the first drive to do his part. Instead the Giants were ahead 14-0 at half time.

The offense had a bad game for sure.  
 

It’s notable it had good games earlier.  That game was a debacle.

 

Ultimately I put that loss on the offense.  You’ve got to score more than 7 points.  
 

But the defense was horrendous.  If not for the Giants just being suck on steroids we lose that game 42-7.

[Warhead36]

42 might be hyperbole but they were a missed FG and a Saquon fumble from putting up 20 points minimum if not 24 which against the Giants is basically like giving up 40 to any other team.

[method man]

5 hours ago, Silvernon said:

 

That pick was questioned at the time and only rational if they were moving on from Payne, but they didn't.

 

Mathis is clearly a bust.

 

The 2nd round should be reserved for a starter and he is one the three worst players of that round. 

 

It's awful any way you look at it: depth chart, team needs, available talent.

 

 

I don't see that. There have been a handful of plays that Fuller would want back, but otherwise it's been an incredibly strong season.

 

While I didn't mind re-signing Fuller, he was definitely not someone that I thought was going to be as good as he has been.

 

For context: I was part of the crowd that was okay with getting rid of him for Alex Smith, which had me in the small minority, and he wasn't great in Kansas City. This second time through he has established himself as a very good #2 corner in this league.

 

The plays that he makes on screens and the running game are very impressive. And I think his coverage has been very solid. He's going to get beat by the best guys because he's not a true number one.

 

To me, it's been obvious that Fuller and Kurl have been the best players on defense this year. And that's good, but definitely not a great thing.

I think you are remembering Fuller now but not remembering the Fuller from the first half of 2021 and first half of 2022 who got smoked on the regular. I became a BSJ fan early last season when they played the Eagles the first time and he played competently against Brown and Smith. The tools are absolutely there with the smarts, the size, the length and the elite quickness for a man his size, which allows him to play in the slot. With better coaching from a real secondary coach (not a guy JDR scooped up from a high school), I think that guy can help BSJ build his confidence so that he doesn’t have to be as grabby and he does a better job looking back for picks.

 

You guys have to remember that he didn’t actually play a lot of college football given the injuries he dealt with at Michigan

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, Warhead36 said:

42 might be hyperbole but they were a missed FG and a Saquon fumble from putting up 20 points minimum if not 24 which against the Giants is basically like giving up 40 to any other team.

It was a slight exaggeration.

 

But they let the giants with a backup QB and a HS level OL rack up 356 yards. Taylor missed a bunch of open guys. 
 

It was an abysmal defensive performance. 
 

We should still have won the game.  It was EB’s worst game by a mile.  Howell played badly and they were unprepared for the blitz.

 

But none of that excuses the defense for letting a JV team run up and down the field for most of the game.