Warhead36 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 I will say though that I think Fuller is playing outstanding football and might be earning a trip to Hawaii at season's end. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samy316 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 7 minutes ago, philibusters said: I agree with your point (though I wouldn't call Ryan Tannenhill terrible--he is like Daniel Jones, put him in a decent situation and he can be good, but in a bad situation he can be bad--we had the bad luck to play the Titans before their O-Line got decimiated by injuries in the second half of last season). For what its worth we also beat Aaron Rodgers, Trevor Lawrence, Dak Prescott last year in addition to the MNF win against the Eagles. But in terms of your big point about the defensive stats looking good because we played a slightly softer schedule I do agree. I've always thought Tannehill was mediocre at best. In last year's game against the Titans, he only threw for 136 yards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 18 hours ago, RandyHolt said: Jamin needs to be unleashed to use his best asset - speed e.g. in press man vs standing flat footed in zone. Reading. IIRC JDR blitzed on every INT we got today. Its almost like this secret turnover formula that many DCs of ours have struggled to figure out over the past 2 decades. Quan blitzing! They also scored when we blitzed. They picked up a few first downs when we blitzed too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 4 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said: They also scored when we blitzed. They picked up a few first downs when we blitzed too. Yeah it's a double edged sword, but at least there is a chance for a good play when we bring pressure. When we don't, the best we can hope for is the QB to miss a throw. Our front four don't ever get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 6 minutes ago, Warhead36 said: Yeah it's a double edged sword, but at least there is a chance for a good play when we bring pressure. When we don't, the best we can hope for is the QB to miss a throw. Our front four don't ever get there. Pretty sure we're 2nd or 3rd in pressure and 5th in sacks or something like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said: They also scored when we blitzed. They picked up a few first downs when we blitzed too. Atlanta may have still scored/gotten firsts on those same plays vs his week 1-5 D... right? Blitz and corner in press man yesterday instead of jumping a double move out of deep quarters zone match trying for a desperation INT 4v5 because Ron stressed more turnovers. Tough day to argue with success IMO. JDR sacrificed potential big plays for turnovers and it worked - 16 points a win and 3 turnovers - QB rattled which isn't really spoken of often enough - he dictated; blitzed twice early in the opening drive!? so he let the dogs on D run and do what they do best - play aggressive at the point of attack. He didn't "sacrifice big plays" week 5 and gave up repeated big plays. Regardless teams scored at will vs us in our non blitz D before week 6... 40 34 37 33 points allowed. Same **** every year with JDR here. His passive defense gets burned for a month plus and then adjusts. His defense is so consistently bad every year out of the gate I now theorize he is trying to save his best stuff for later in the year. In the QBs face ripping his helmet off = more likely to get a rushed bad throw later IMO. I want advanced stats on that too. Edited October 16, 2023 by RandyHolt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moondog Posted October 16, 2023 Share Posted October 16, 2023 Our defenses, especially early in the year just seem predicated on JDR not learning past lessons. He reverts back to just rushing 4 relying on our talent up front which leaves most of them double teamed and chipped against typical 6 man protections and chips. It makes the defense reactive instead of dictating/attacking and does not maximize our talent upfront and while our secondary is talented, you give anyone enough time and they’re going to get open. Blitzing or bringing others maximized the front’s talent and allows them more one on ones or challenges the lines’ gameplan in that if they do double team then a blitzer is going to come untouched, force a pressure or force the qb into one of our linemen and allow the back end to eat instead of covering forever. Inevitably we get around to attacking more and everyone looks better, especially when the backend follows their techniques WITH the front generating pressure. It also makes fake blitz looks actually BE effective because a lineman may set to block the guy and be late helping against our linemen. Additionally, I think it must be said that our linebackers seem to struggle so much because our scheme dictates that they play reactively to the dline. We clearly give our line all the freedom in the world to change up what they’re doing even at the LOS which is good for them but if not communicated effectively to the LB than they’re guessing where they need to be. It also explains why they struggle so much to play downhill in our scheme because they have to instantly react to the dline in terms of what gap they’re responsible for - you see issues with this when a lineman makes a move and Barton ends up stacked up then rather than filling a different gap or just waiting for a rb to come through then taking them on. I think this is sometimes more obvious when our defense is more consistent when guys like Toohill or JSW are in. They are going to 100% do their job and be where others expect them to be. Instead of 4 players doing their thing (within the defense to try to fill the gaps/pass rush lanes) it limits it to just 1-2 (Payne/Allen) and the defense tends to be more consistent in terms of limiting yards per play, providing pressure and limiting rb’s to short gains. Payne/Allen tend to be more productive as well because it’s JUST them being set up by lesser players rather than sharing that freedom across the whole front. Obviously you want the max talent on the field at one time but it is apparent that the defense shows more consistency limiting offenses when we have more role players out there that just “do their job” and let a few key stars eat. This is not me advocating for choosing between young/sweat etc, just an observation. It IS me advocating for JDR calling more aggressive defenses to maximize the individual talent upfront rather than just expecting the single one of them that doesn’t get doubled or chipped to win every time or else we are in a bad spot. The best coordinators don’t just expect their talent to win out, they scheme up ways for them to be unblocked or blocked by just a TE or RB on occasion or use them to free up a blitzing Davis etc. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 One thing that I notice when watching other defenses is how much faster other defenses are. Both in reaction and speed. A good example is the Chargers. They just fly around. I’m not sure how good they are… better than us… but they look fast. I don’t know how fast our team speed is on defense… but I do know we don’t play fast. Dallas flies around on D, too. Buffalo, Philly, NYJ, Vegas, etc… they all look fast and play fast. Maybe we’re “statistically” faster than some of those but it doesn’t look it. 6 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BatteredFanSyndrome Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, KDawg said: One thing that I notice when watching other defenses is how much faster other defenses are. Both in reaction and speed. A good example is the Chargers. They just fly around. I’m not sure how good they are… better than us… but they look fast. I don’t know how fast our team speed is on defense… but I do know we don’t play fast. Dallas flies around on D, too. Buffalo, Philly, NYJ, Vegas, etc… they all look fast and play fast. Maybe we’re “statistically” faster than some of those but it doesn’t look it. I think it’s all about playing fast as opposed to true speed. Our back 7 constantly appear as if they are thinking before they react, as opposed to defenses like you describe that are constantly attacking the ball. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 12 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: I think it’s all about playing fast as opposed to true speed. Our back 7 constantly appear as if they are thinking before they react, as opposed to defenses like you describe that are constantly attacking the ball. Exactly. Its a scheme issue. When you think, you play slow. Look how much faster Jamin Davis is playing this year in year 3 compared to year 1. He's letting his natural talent flow instead of trying to decipher everything. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KDawg Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 17 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said: I think it’s all about playing fast as opposed to true speed. Our back 7 constantly appear as if they are thinking before they react, as opposed to defenses like you describe that are constantly attacking the ball. Yup. That’s why I said play fast. But when I watch our D it kinda looks like both… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moondog Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 2 hours ago, KDawg said: Yup. That’s why I said play fast. But when I watch our D it kinda looks like both… I think this relates at least in part to what I referenced above. If you’re just sending 4 against the the pass and there are constant double teams and chips or 6 man protections then that pass rush isn’t getting home and the rest of the defense is playing backwards and preventing instead of forcing the issue. Against the run it’s similar with LBers reacting to somewhat of a freelance front rather than knowing their gaps presnap and playing downhill. Again, reactive. It’s an overly simple perspective that doesn’t explain everything away but I think it explains why we have so much speed but often look slow. It’s because our defense so far this year has just been hoping our front four blow up the run AND pass game while the rest are essentially playing backward. Or if they do attack and it doesn’t get home there are massive gaps created or time for longer routes/double moves. It also begs another draft question. I like Forbes and think he’ll eventually be a good player. But he’s a ballhawk not a cover/shutdown corner, in the same way that diggs is for Dallas. If you draft that player and preach turnovers then don’t rush four and constantly leave him on an island. You apply pressure and let him play downhill to the ball. Forbes deserves plenty of blame for his play but our style of defense as a whole doesn’t marry up with preaching turnovers. If you’ve built the defense on speed and turnovers, then play an attacking style of defense and live with getting burned occasionally because you expect the turnovers (and holding penalties) to outweigh the bad. But sitting back on the back end and hoping the front four get through a wall does not at all match the philosophy you’ve preached all off-season or the player you took. Hell, if Forbes is on a guy like AJ brown maybe overload that side with the pressure so that if they do go that way Forbes can be the aggressive player that he is rather than out there against an animal of a receiver. And I don’t mean some stupid double corner blitz. Keim has mentioned several times this team for years (prior regimes) drafts guys then asks them to be something different than what they’ve been on film. You drafted a ballhawk so put him in positions to be that. Don’t ask him to cover AJ brown and dj Moore for 3-4 seconds. That’s not who he is, at least not right now. And similar to jamin Davis with quan Martin, you take a talented athlete but then try to jam too much into his brain for him to play fast. Maybe they felt with all the talent at safety it was ok to overload him and bring him in slowly. My feelings just differ in that you could have given him one thing (buffalo nickel) and let him master it so he can play fast and then pick up more as he goes. Instead they threw the kitchen sink at him so he’s not good enough at anything (by their estimation) to play cuz he has to think too much. I just don’t like that philosophy with their young players. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWinzit Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, KDawg said: One thing that I notice when watching other defenses is how much faster other defenses are. Both in reaction and speed. A good example is the Chargers. They just fly around. I’m not sure how good they are… better than us… but they look fast. I don’t know how fast our team speed is on defense… but I do know we don’t play fast. Dallas flies around on D, too. Buffalo, Philly, NYJ, Vegas, etc… they all look fast and play fast. Maybe we’re “statistically” faster than some of those but it doesn’t look it. Our LBers are not and have not been very instinctual for quite some time. They rarely are in place to meet ball carrier squared up. They are more reactionary, chase and tackle. They also seem to be weak in the ability to work through blockers, can't shed them instead they get stuck. I was excited when they brought Barton in. They said he played fast yet his 40 numbers don't show it, so I assumed he had the instincts. He doesn't really, he kind of plays the same as Davis, Hudson, Holcomb, Bostic Mayo and so on. This is why Bostic looked slow out there at times, he wasn't slow, but played slow. Drove me crazy. Barton is putting up good numbers but how many times do you see him squared up and making a great hit...it's not that often. Watching the Niners Cowboys game last week, Warner and Greenlaw were everywhere , played with incredible game speed and smacked the ball carriers constantly. their play brought me smiles I will admit Holcomb improved in his final year in Washington and Davis is beginning to show signs of improvement! I am hoping he gains more of that but I always think much of instinct is built into someone, maybe born with it. Eh, not sure but it is what i look for in LBers with drafting. I can tell you this year Pace had the best instincts I have seen in a prospect in years. I can also tell you Cox on our IR does not have it. I loved watching him play as he was college fast but all sped was more chase and tackle Edited October 17, 2023 by DWinzit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) Great recent posts here. It's clear our back 7 are not allowed to fly down as KDawg said - watching other teams its very obvious. We rarely see anyone flying downhill at full speed. We have foot speed. JDR runs a structured contain defense where players have to read more/react instinctively less compared to other teams. Those feet are stuck in cement far too often while being told to get turnovers. A recipe for disaster: dont be aggressive but ..be aggressive. You could see it in the chargers game. How fast the blitzers were just FLYING at Dak who was sacked 5 times but was dodging blitzers coming at him at full speed, early and often. Unleash Barton. Unleash Jamin. Unleash our Strongs. Lets the dogs on D get some runs in and let them do their thing. Randomly and selectively free 1 or 2 here and there and tell them to attack the ball, to keep OCs and QBs guessing. Bring an extra guy from a spot that is not on tape. Create chaos - how's that for a slogan sign on a door. Its just too easy to draw up game plans vs static defenses. Its too easy for the QB at the LOS. Its too easy for offensive line / blitz pickup assignments. And its clearly too painful for me to watch for years on end lol. Edited October 17, 2023 by RandyHolt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HigSkin Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterPinstripe Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 Our linebackers have to read the DL before they know what to do which is why they look so reactionary. In listening to the Keim podcast when we were playing with 5 down linemen they dont need to do that and you can see how much better they fill gaps. JDRs scheme is crap. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) Random Commander D stats I found perusing the vast internets Washington is 6th in knockdowns, 7th in passes defended rate, and 13th in pressure rate Edited October 17, 2023 by RandyHolt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 I wonder if Jim Schwartz wants to be a head coach again. His OC could come from the Pederson/Reich tree. 36 minutes ago, RandyHolt said: Random Commander D stats I found perusing the vast internets Washington is 6th in knockdowns, 7th in passes defended rate, and 13th in pressure rate 6th is sacks, 11th in picks, 28th in yards allowed, 3rd in points allowed https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/team-stats?category=defense&sort=def_hurr&season=2023&seasonType=reg&sortOrder=desc 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 (edited) Barton appears to have graded well this week. After seeing JDR blitzing in the first plays of the game I am not surprised at all to hear Barton played like he did last year in Seattle. As they say, its the stoopid scheme. Its like a recurring nightmare every year here. I have been the only person I have seen defending Barton at all this year and theorizing he is just doing what JDR is asking him to do: Not play downhill; play uphill. Opposite George Cody. Read React and get Run over. Not used to his strengths, and not allowed to do what he does best. What likely all backers do best short of pure coverage types. Play aggressive. Edited October 17, 2023 by RandyHolt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said: I wonder if Jim Schwartz wants to be a head coach again. His OC could come from the Pederson/Reich tree. Im sure he does but i can't imagine to many teams are lining up to hire him. Schwartz is a pretty good coordinator. Head coach not so much. 29–52 record is all the proof that's needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted October 17, 2023 Share Posted October 17, 2023 20 minutes ago, Captain Wiggles said: Im sure he does but i can't imagine to many teams are lining up to hire him. Schwartz is a pretty good coordinator. Head coach not so much. 29–52 record is all the proof that's needed. Big fan of his. Plus mentioning a DC for a HC triggers all the right people. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XxSpearheadxX Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 (edited) Daron is such a beast and a pros pro Is it just me or did Daron sound like he was calling someone out without naming names when he said they better cover the weakside. Edited October 19, 2023 by XxSpearheadxX 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Wiggles Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 Quote "Excited Payne noises" "More excited Payne noises" 😆 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chew Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 ^ what a likeable guy, and seems like a great teammate. 5:45 - *Excited Payne noises* 5:50 - *More excited Payne noises" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted October 19, 2023 Share Posted October 19, 2023 LOL at the part where he tried to use a spin move and got completely stoned: "I'm gonna leave that **** in my back pocket" and Chris Lindstrom "We saw that last week." 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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