2021 Comprehensive Draft Thread

[KDawg]

54 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

Kdawg, I know we don’t play a lot of base, but where did Holcomb play in our base set last year. More WILL, or SAM?

Could say SAM. But inside backers should generally be interchangeable in the 4-2 alignments. So... inside. 
 

But if you’re talking a base 4-3 structure it’s SAM all day.

1 hour ago, PlayAction said:

 

Both starting OTs will be free agents after the upcoming season so it's a good time to invest in the position even if S.Charles can come back and compete as a Tackle.  The question in my mind is whether any of the top Tackles will last to the 19th pick in the second round.  We can guess but we never know.  I'm willing to pass on an equally rated, or slightly higher rated, WR for an OT.  

Me too. Not willing to pass on an equally or better rated LB, FS or bellcow RB for the reach pick of the 4th potential LT, though.

[Anselmheifer]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

Could say SAM. But inside backers should generally be interchangeable in the 4-2 alignments. So... inside. 
 

But if you’re talking a base 4-3 structure it’s SAM all day.

I was asking specifically about base, exactly for that reason. Holcomb and Jamin would be interchangeable in our nickel, which we run at least 75% of the time. 
 

I was thinking about that tweet that said we shouldn’t scoff at Zaven Collins’ speed, because it’s the same speed as TJ Watt. That’s a terrible analogy. TJ Watt is a rush backer and Zaven’s biggest strength in college was as a coverage guy. He’s not going to come in as some coverage stud at 4.7. I just don’t see it. Maybe a solid player but not a star. He’s a mid 2nd rounder or later to me. I bet there are guys I like better in the mid second still. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Anselmheifer said:

I was asking specifically about base, exactly for that reason. Holcomb and Jamin would be interchangeable in our nickel, which we run at least 75% of the time. 
 

I was thinking about that tweet that said we shouldn’t scoff at Zaven Collins’ speed, because it’s the same speed as TJ Watt. That’s a terrible analogy. TJ Watt is a rush backer and Zaven’s biggest strength in college was as a coverage guy. He’s not going to come in as some coverage stud at 4.7. I just don’t see it. Maybe a solid player but not a star. He’s a mid 2nd rounder or later to me. I bet there are guys I like better in the mid second still. 

Zaven is more of a zone backer. I think they’re going to play more man with Jackson now. So that is a consideration. It also makes me more nervous about our current backers.

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

So Jamin Davis would fit perfectly even in the base set. Natural WILL. Now if we only had a decent MIKE. I wish Reuben Foster would finally get healthy, but that seems like a lotto ticket. 

 

Standig took Jamin Davis in his mock.  Standig won for a couple of years as having the most accurate mock.   At the moment, if we don't take a LT, my two guys would be Jamin Davis and Koramoah.  Standig thinks Koramoah will be gone before 19 based on conversations he's had with personnel sources.

[Skinsinparadise]

38 minutes ago, Anselmheifer said:

I was asking specifically about base, exactly for that reason. Holcomb and Jamin would be interchangeable in our nickel, which we run at least 75% of the time. 
 

I was thinking about that tweet that said we shouldn’t scoff at Zaven Collins’ speed, because it’s the same speed as TJ Watt. That’s a terrible analogy. TJ Watt is a rush backer and Zaven’s biggest strength in college was as a coverage guy. He’s not going to come in as some coverage stud at 4.7. I just don’t see it. Maybe a solid player but not a star. He’s a mid 2nd rounder or later to me. I bet there are guys I like better in the mid second still. 

 

For me, Ledyard summed it up perfectly which is he wants a MLB who can run 4.5 or better not a player who runs about a 4.7 but you defend it by saying its fast for his size.  He wants the actual speed not someone who runs well for his size.  So do I.

 

I was early on Collins.  I can recall way back you even asking whose that LB dude from the small school that was mentioned here.  And I responded that was me mentioning Collins from Tulsa.  When I talk about who mentions a player first or does it early on, my only point on that front is just that hey I liked that player early so I feel invested in the stock.  So I was early on Zaven.   I wasn't early on Jamin.  I tend to stay a bit more loyal to ones that I've hung with for a longer time.   But I think I am somewhat out on Zaven at 19 now. 

 

I don't hate the idea of Zaven at 19.  But I think he's raw in some parts of the game and my attraction to his play was largely driven by his athleticism.  Jamin to me also is raw on some fronts but I was also attracted to the athleticism.  For me Jamin killed it athleticially.  Zaven did good from the perspective of a strong RAS performance when you weighed in his size as a factor.  But like Ledyard, I want a sideline/sideline LB who can run fast not someone who isn't fast but is fast for his size.  Jamin also tackles well in the open field and can also cover.   Crazy that Jamin beat Zaven on every front athletically: not just speed and explosiveness but also strength. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[Est.1974]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

For me, Ledyard summed it up perfectly which is he wants a MLB who can run 4.5 or better not a player who runs about a 4.7 but you defend it by saying its fast for his size.  He wants the actual speed not someone who runs well for his size.  So do I.

agreed, said similar, get a 4.40s man

[KDawg]

I don’t care about 4.4. But you need a guy that can run with dudes in man coverage if you’re going to be a more man defense. If we really are going to more man, Zaven shouldn’t be a consideration. If we are going to play more zone he’s a great consideration.

 

Werner ran a 4.59. 
 

Davis is 4.4s. If we’re man I prefer those two. If we’re zone I like all three.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

 

[RWJ]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Sure be nice if we could select if there, Darrisaw at #19 and Jamin in the 2nd. 

[Warhead36]

If we're taking Davis in round 1 I'd try to trade down a bit but I've heard rumors the Colts really like him so maybe we don't take that risk if we really like the guy.

[Skinsinparadise]

18 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

agreed, said similar, get a 4.40s man

 

4.4 is nice.   I can deal with even high 4.5's.  But for me once you are pushing 4.7 or close enough to it in today's NFL that's not fast for a LB.  It would be one thing if I thought Zaven was a big time tackler in open field but IMO he isn't.  He also had one of the highest rates of miss tackles among the linebackers.   He's a good player.  He plays very well in coverage.  He's a beast going after the Qb even though he's bereft of pass rushing moves.  I bet he will be a good NFL player.   But I'd put my money on Jamin Davis chasing down S. Barkley on a screen pass than I would Zaven Collins.   And that to me is important.  I want a linbacker especially if its a Will who can chase down players on the move in the flat. 

7 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

If we're taking Davis in round 1 I'd try to trade down a bit but I've heard rumors the Colts really like him so maybe we don't take that risk if we really like the guy.

 

Last time I recall the Colts liking a player that we supposedly like brings me back to Ryan Kelly.  The rumors about both the Colts and the WFT liking Kelly ended up true.

 

Not that I know that the WFT is into Davis but the WFT reporters said the WFT talked to him multiple times already so I gather there is at least some interest. 

8 minutes ago, RWJ said:

Sure be nice if we could select if there, Darrisaw at #19 and Jamin in the 2nd. 

 

If the mock drafters are on the money, who knows if they are or not, no shot at Jamin at 51. 

Edited April 5, 2021 by Skinsinparadise

[DWinzit]

I think we are all on the same page that:

 

Take Darrisaw is he there at 19

Moving down a little would be great

Take Cosmi or another LT

or take Davis as he is moving past Zaven due to various recent events

 

My question-if Darrisaw is gone at 19 and Davis is still there, do you move back and risk someone grabbing him, or take him at 19.

I find myself now leaning towards Darrisaw or Davis at 19 otherwise move back

 

[Anselmheifer]

14 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I don’t care about 4.4. But you need a guy that can run with dudes in man coverage if you’re going to be a more man defense. If we really are going to more man, Zaven shouldn’t be a consideration. If we are going to play more zone he’s a great consideration.

 

Werner ran a 4.59. 
 

Davis is 4.4s. If we’re man I prefer those two. If we’re zone I like all three.

I’d love Werner in the 3rd. He seems like another one of this guys that I think will go in the 2nd but would love as a value pick, if he falls. Werner is actually an ideal target for us, I think, if we got OT in rd 1. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Anselmheifer said:

I’d love Werner in the 3rd. He seems like another one of this guys that I think will go in the 2nd but would love as a value pick, if he falls. Werner is actually an ideal target for us, I think, if we got OT in rd 1. 

I'd take Werner in the second and not think twice. But I am higher on him than many others are.

 

To me he's a top 50 player in this draft class.

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I agree with his model. I'm still not as high on Terrace as many but I will readily admit he has tremendously high upside that if it comes together he's going to be an absolute monster.

 

Though I am a bit miffed at people not paying attention to Amari Rodgers.

[DWinzit]

Just now, KDawg said:

I'd take Werner in the second and not think twice. But I am higher on him than many others are.

 

To me he's a top 50 player in this draft class.

If we don't take an LB in the first round (and I don't see a huge chance of it) I am with you, I have been convinced for a couple weeks that we take Werner in the 2nd. I think there is too big of a drop off with the other LB options. 

[clskinsfan]

More and more mocks have either Surtain or Horn falling to 19. I wouldnt mind one of them either. You pick a shutdown corner and move Fuller to the slot, where he excels , and you have one hell of a problem for opposing QB's. Hold the ball because no one is open and our DL smashes you. 

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, clskinsfan said:

More and more mocks have either Surtain or Horn falling to 19. I wouldnt mind one of them either. You pick a shutdown corner and move Fuller to the slot, where he excels , and you have one hell of a problem for opposing QB's. Hold the ball because no one is open and our DL smashes you. 

 

Except you will have someone open. Whoever the LBs are covering or a running lane.

Edited April 5, 2021 by KDawg

[clskinsfan]

1 minute ago, KDawg said:

 

Except you will have someone open. Whoever the LBs are covering or a running lane.

I will take my chances with an opposing offense only able to complete swings, flats or screens. Make them earn every single yard. 

[Skinsinparadise]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I agree with his model. I'm still not as high on Terrace as many but I will readily admit he has tremendously high upside that if it comes together he's going to be an absolute monster.

 

Though I am a bit miffed at people not paying attention to Amari Rodgers.

 

Yeah Terrace has been one of my guys among receivers for awhile.  But if I had to pick one that I've been the most consistent on is Elijah Moore.  But sadly I don't think we end up with either.  

 

I like Amari, he's probably more likely in our range because I doubt we take a WR until the 3rd at the earliest.    But yeah if you want a dude who is a bowling bowl as far as YAC in the flat, it would be him.  To me he's sort of the Brevin Jordan of the WRs as for having that ability to get open and break some tackles for YAC in the flat. 

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

I will take my chances with an opposing offense only able to complete swings, flats or screens. Make them earn every single yard. 

Or run the ball down our throats.

[Est.1974]

13 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

If we don't take an LB in the first round (and I don't see a huge chance of it) I am with you, I have been convinced for a couple weeks that we take Werner in the 2nd. I think there is too big of a drop off with the other LB options. 

I think the second round most likely lands us a DB as best value pick. No idea if the QB talk is just that. I hope so in the 2nd round, personally.

[DWinzit]

5 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN 74 said:

I think the second round most likely lands us a DB as best value pick. No idea if the QB talk is just that. I hope so in the 2nd round, personally.

I would not argue that it could be WR, TE OT or FS but in my eyes there is not another LB rounded enough past Werner and as a result, to RR and JDR, Werner maybe the BPA

Edited April 5, 2021 by DWinzit

[Anselmheifer]

17 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

More and more mocks have either Surtain or Horn falling to 19. I wouldnt mind one of them either. You pick a shutdown corner and move Fuller to the slot, where he excels , and you have one hell of a problem for opposing QB's. Hold the ball because no one is open and our DL smashes you. 

I actually would probably pull the trigger on Horn if he fell. He won’t fall. But I love the idea of two elite outside corners and one good interior corner behind our LB’s.

 

Honestly, our DL and that secondary could be a top 5 all time defense with a decent FSA and one LB addition. 
 

In any case, I don’t see Surtain or Horn falling. Especially now with Farley’s surgery. 
 

Kdawg, at the risk of sounding stupid, can you break down 4-3 and 4-2 LB coverage responsibilities in a man coverage scheme?