FAREWELL to the NFL Dwayne Haskins QB Ohio State

[arftech]

29 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

I would prefer to have him sit a year and watch/learn from the mistakes/good of the guys in front of him. A few reasons. First of all it worked for him before. He sat before and it worked. I understand hes a really heady QB. Hes more heady than athletic and I think the more he knows the more he can take advantage of the defense. And I dont think it hurts him. Second is that I dont want him to have early struggles and lose the fan base. That matters here. It may not to him though so thats not as big of a deal. 

 

 

This is my other worry, but you covered it. 

 

For me, though, none of this matters if he shows he can do it. And I do trust Jay to know if he can or not. So if coach says go lets ****ing go! 

If coaches deem he's ready day 1 then you go with him.  Why wait?

 

Hail Em Up!

[teamcal00]

I guess one of the things I'm struggling to understand with this whole argument about Haskins is why he gets knocked because of the the supreme talent that he played around, but Tua isn't judged on the same aspects...or Kyler Murray for that matter. Both of those quarterbacks have thrown or are throwing to wide receivers far more talented then the ones Haskins had. I don't think there is any dispute on that one. I'm not a big Haskins guy, but I think the unknown of his talent based on lack of body of work or playing time in general is peeling off on lateral discussions like the talent surrounding him that I believe carry less value. Struggling with handling pressure in the pocket , I get that knock. Having success because you have talent around you? Yeah everyone needs that

[redskinss]

7 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

Haskins pressure % is a statistic. Something else that helps is his incredibly low yards per target average.  

 

Sure Haskins does plenty well, but he’d not have that pressure % at Daniel Jones U. 

But does it matter that his yards per target average is low if it added up to 5000 yards and 50 touchdowns. 

 

Sure it was only one season and doesn't mean it will translate but this seems like when you critique a quarterback for taking what the defense gives him instead of dictating the offense to the defense, sure the former is easier and far less sexy but if it works and racks up points and wins I'll take it.

 

Having said this I watch almost no college football so I am well aware that you know more about this than I do.

[volsmet]

1 minute ago, RandyHolt said:

Good point.  One way to sap QB pressure is a quick passing offense. They will never lay a hand on the QB, and at that point, may be well served to stop trying.  DL/OLB get frustrated fast, and short of going for batted balls, are completely neutralized.

Maybe Vol can chime in on what defenses usually did vs OSU.  Vs a high powered O, I think many pro teams would go bend don't break, and slow the scoring/game down. That starts with standard pressure up front.

 

Washington went bend but don’t break early, with little success, then began blitzing the middle during their comeback & Haskins struggled fairly significantly with it. He just isn’t used to pressure yet, he throws drifting back & his arm falls a bit out of sync with his body. He’s not the natural athlete some guys are, so footwork becomes far more important for him than a guy like Murray, and footwork around a real threat is nearly impossible to replicate. Haskins does a great job getting his backs where they need to be.

 

Occasionally you see Haskins fooled, but the players are so good that he still gets a positive result in college that he wouldn’t elsewhere, but that’s the case with nearly every QB. I’ve seen draft experts on twitter positively highlight plays that were actually misreads, but they look good in a highlight because he moves protection... which people get excited about .. even if it’s moved the wrong direction. 

 

 

[RandyHolt]

College QBs throwing to wide open WRs... welp one could win the Heisman doing that, and dupe the owner that drafts him. I am not sure sitting will help.

 

I feel like proper advanced QB stats would include their stats only throwing into man coverage, vs zone, etc.  I recently learned that in Alex's monster 2017 year, he was 40th in the league in throwing into tight windows. Red Flag with our thin WR group.

 

Some like Jay want to see how a QB does under pressure.  I want to see how a QB in the face of proper coverage. The pressure angle Jay focuses on can be mitigated by adjusting his play calling. We have all seen it. Studly NFL WRs jammed at the LOS, or in tight man all day, become invisible. Many things are out of the QBs hands. What does the QB do when the coverage is tight? Ground it, force one, throw a McNubb grounder, chuck it in the stands, try and scramble to make something happen? Tight man creates pressure on the QB, extreme pressure. Literally, and figuratively. 

 

I want grading on QBs done for when the patterns full. Call it the QB improvisation rating.  It took Cousins 5 years to learn he can just run.

 

[volsmet]

6 minutes ago, teamcal00 said:

I guess one of the things I'm struggling to understand with this whole argument about Haskins is why he gets knocked because of the the supreme talent that he played around, but Tua isn't judged on the same aspects...or Kyler Murray for that matter. Both of those quarterbacks have thrown or are throwing to wide receivers far more talented then the ones Haskins had. I don't think there is any dispute on that one. I'm not a big Haskins guy, but I think the unknown of his talent based on lack of body of work or playing time in general is peeling off on lateral discussions like the talent surrounding him that I believe carry less value. Struggling with handling pressure in the pocket , I get that knock. Having success because you have talent around you? Yeah everyone needs that

 

It’s not a knock, it’s simply something that he can’t take with him. Tua & Kyler both averaged over 10.5 yards per target, Haskins was under 9. Haskins was also far more erratic on down field throws with any pressure. There are reasons no one went ahead of us to get him, there are reasons to believe he will be the steal of the draft.

 

Haskins played 3 good defensive teams, he shredded Michigan, struggled with MSU, & was abysmal v PSU. 

9 minutes ago, redskinss said:

But does it matter that his yards per target average is low if it added up to 5000 yards and 50 touchdowns. 

 

 

 

If that’s what you truly believe, I’ll not try to change your mind, we simply disagree. 

[volsmet]

Area he can only improve on with live reps

 

 

34% of Dwayne’s TD passes came on throws of more than 20 yards, he was the 9th highest rated QB on throws over 10 yards, he was brilliant when kept clean. Statistics from pff back up everything on his tape — they are issues you expect from a first year starter — issues you can’t succeed with in the NFL, which is why teams let him slide; perhaps to their detriment. 

 

His arm, love of the game, mind & release are elite traits - plenty of football players hate football, he lives it, we just need to keep him upright as he adjusts to the speed of the game, we need to give him the chance to replace the bad habits with good ones as the level of competition increases.

 

[volsmet]

Pff backs up something I loved about Haskins that others said he struggled with - getting off his primary read, I believe SIPs guy Cooley thinks DH stays on his primary too long, but once he gets to his 2nd, he’s a natural. That’s where his work habits come in, his footwork in a clean pocket - getting to read 2.

 

Quote

Even more encouraging is how Haskins performed when working through multiple reads. We keep a very loose definition in order to track this, but it’s essentially charting a quarterback’s ability to get from one side of the field to another, reaching his second, third or even fourth read. When working multiple reads, Haskins has the highest PFF grade in the draft class last season at 91.5, just above our No. 1 overall quarterback, Kyler Murray.

 

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/draft-dwayne-haskins-isnt-a-finished-product-but-still-possesses-a-valuable-skillset-worth-taking-early-in-the-draft

[CrypticVillain]

@volsmet, what would you need to see for you to think he's ready to start week one? (My apologies if you answered this already.)

[Bifflog]

23 minutes ago, volsmet said:

Area he can only improve on with live reps

 

Is that a... widescreen video letter-boxed to portrait format, then pillar-boxed back to widescreen?

 

This is a war crime.

[Mooka]

1 hour ago, teamcal00 said:

I guess one of the things I'm struggling to understand with this whole argument about Haskins is why he gets knocked because of the the supreme talent that he played around, but Tua isn't judged on the same aspects...or Kyler Murray for that matter. 

 

Kyler Murray can clearly make plays Haskins can't.

 

Actually he can make plays that no other QB outside maybe Russell Wilson can make.

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, teamcal00 said:

I guess one of the things I'm struggling to understand with this whole argument about Haskins is why he gets knocked because of the the supreme talent that he played around, but Tua isn't judged on the same aspects...or Kyler Murray for that matter. Both of those quarterbacks have thrown or are throwing to wide receivers far more talented then the ones Haskins had. I don't think there is any dispute on that one. I'm not a big Haskins guy, but I think the unknown of his talent based on lack of body of work or playing time in general is peeling off on lateral discussions like the talent surrounding him that I believe carry less value. Struggling with handling pressure in the pocket , I get that knock. Having success because you have talent around you? Yeah everyone needs that

 

I think the argument is more about how that talent around Haskins was used, verses how other teams use it. Just watching him (and not the others) it seems the offense he ran not only took advantage of how much better the WRs were compared to the DBs, but how fast his release was and how much speed they put on the field. Its impossible to cover 4 guys that fast across the field all day long when the game plan is taking advantage of it. Someone knew what they were doing and took advantage of it as a matter of theory and it worked perfectly. Im not sure any of the other guys had that of effectiveness with their offenses (cause I didnt watch)

 

Where I have a problem with that argument is that it doesnt account for the fact they planned for Haskins skill set as well. That offense wouldnt go the way it did if he wasnt able to give quality throws.....throws where the WR wasnt killed and he had all the room in the world to run. Sure, it was built to work that way. But not everyone can fly a plane and they are built for that **** too. 

 

The concern is, will he get that in the NFL? The answer is ask Jason Campbell. (meaning who the **** knows cause he could have a different OC every other year) And if he doesnt get that, can he make up for it on his own? I dont know that he can yet. 

[volsmet]

57 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

College QBs throwing to wide open WRs... welp one could win the Heisman doing that, and dupe the owner that drafts him. I am not sure sitting will help.

 

I feel like proper advanced QB stats would include their stats only throwing into man coverage, vs zone, etc.  I recently learned that in Alex's monster 2017 year, he was 40th in the league in throwing into tight windows. Red Flag with our thin WR group.

 

 

 

Haskins saw the best man to man team in the country v Mich, who went to more zone, but couldn’t get near DH all day — then he saw the best zone D in the country, v Washington, who gave him more problems. PSU & Wash both pressured out of zones more than anyone else & they gave DH the biggest issues.

 

I’m certain the stats on m v z are available, I’ll see what’s around, OSU faced zone ... probably 85% of the time. 

 

[Llevron]

@volsmet Rookie question but why exactly is the yards per attempt such a big deal in determining NFL potential? And how accurate has it been? 

[volsmet]

15 minutes ago, CrypticVillain said:

@volsmet, what would you need to see for you to think he's ready to start week one? (My apologies if you answered this already.)

 

That we can protect him, a healthy O-line, someone taking the left guard spot, & Guice being ready with his protection reads is all I’d need to see. I don’t see anything that can go wrong if you sit him & let him take in the speed of the game from the sideline, but if we are set with the 3 things above, I’d be happy to see him week 1. 

 

People comment on his size helping keep him healthy, but he makes some very awkward movement when protection breaks down, I worry about him getting hit in an awkward position v speed he’s not used to. 

[teamcal00]

12 minutes ago, Mooka said:

 

Kyler Murray can clearly make plays Haskins can't.

 

Actually he can make plays that no other QB outside maybe Russell Wilson can make.

Agreed. But that has no bearing about the knock of talent playing around him

[volsmet]

9 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

 

Where I have a problem with that argument fails for me, is that it doesnt account for the fact they planned for Haskins skill set as well. That offense wouldnt go the way it did if he wasnt able to give quality throws.....throws where the WR wasnt killed and he had all the room in the world to run. Sure, it was built to work that way. But not everyone can fly a plan and they are built for that **** too. 

 

 

 

The issue in scouting is being able to replicate what he did well in college. He was nearly 3 yards per target behind Murray - sure OSU schemed that up, but they had to because, v PSU, DH couldn’t deal with the looks/pressure & they just dumped the ball off for a comeback win — DH was terrible, but he gets credit with a big time win, despite 80% of the yards coming after the catch & 8-10 passes being uncatchable. You can’t project that to the NFL. That doesn’t mean he can’t figure it out, of course he can, but the less you can replicate, the more risk. Watson fell - despite obliterating Bama twice - because coaches/scouts weren’t sure he could replicate that play making in the nfl ... Houston is lucky those people were too cautious; hopefully we are due a similar fate.

 

The limited starts & lack of games that resemble what you face in the NFL are reasons for doubt — but the talent & mind are reasons for optimism. 

 

 

[mistertim]

1 hour ago, teamcal00 said:

I guess one of the things I'm struggling to understand with this whole argument about Haskins is why he gets knocked because of the the supreme talent that he played around, but Tua isn't judged on the same aspects...or Kyler Murray for that matter. Both of those quarterbacks have thrown or are throwing to wide receivers far more talented then the ones Haskins had. I don't think there is any dispute on that one. I'm not a big Haskins guy, but I think the unknown of his talent based on lack of body of work or playing time in general is peeling off on lateral discussions like the talent surrounding him that I believe carry less value. Struggling with handling pressure in the pocket , I get that knock. Having success because you have talent around you? Yeah everyone needs that

 

I've made this point in the past and I still believe it: Kyler Murray absolutely benefited a ton from the talent around him. He had two 1st round WRs to throw to who also happened to compliment each other perfectly. Marquise Brown was the insane vertical threat who almost no DB in the nation could hope keep up with and who was open by yards on tons of plays. IMO CeeDee Lamb, barring injury, will be an almost sure-fire 1st rounder in the 2020 draft. He's super quick, an excellent route runner, and has ludicrous body control and hands. 

 

Murray also had an excellent OL. Yes he also helped out by being so mobile, but if you watch his cut-ups you'll see that even on plays where he stayed in the pocket they usually gave him tons of time.

 

I think overall Haskins didn't have guys who were individually as talented as Brown or Lamb, but the aggregate of them all was even more impressive than Oklahoma, and Ohio State used them perfectly. When you have one good 4.3 receiver to cover you can bracket him, keep a deep safety, or just stick your best DB on him depending on how good the receiver is (and how good your DBs are). When you have 3 of them you're basically ****ed, especially in college where most of your DBs aren't going to be nearly that fast. And Ohio State used them well in shallow mesh concepts where they could use their superior speed and athleticism to create mismatches and take quick passes for huge gains or even TDs.

 

Ohio State could just run those same plays over and over again...and they did. And I can't really blame them for it as it obviously worked. But that isn't going to work in the NFL. Defenses are too fast and coordinators too smart to let that happen. That doesn't mean that Haskins can't thrive in the pros; he has some outstanding attributes. It just means that it could take him longer than other rookies to get used to the NFL game, especially when you add in the very small amount of starting experience. And that's absolutely fine with me; I just don't want the coaches (or FO, more accurately) to force the situation and make him start before he's ready because it could lead to him being shell shocked.

[volsmet]

38 minutes ago, Llevron said:

@volsmet Rookie question but why exactly is the yards per attempt such a big deal in determining NFL potential? And how accurate has it been? 

 

It’s not truly ypa, it’s depth of target, my apologies for that. It’s, as you know, just more difficult to make longer throws, it’s easier to take things away in the NFL — Haskins averaged 7.8 ypt & 22% of his targets were to Campbell who only averaged 4.5 yards of depth per target — that’s the kind of thing scouts believe any draft-worthy could replicate in college, it’s simplifying things to a point that you can’t project it, you can’t throw the ball, 111 times, to a guy averaging 4.5 ypt, and move the football in the nfl. You hit a guy running 4.3 down the sideline & it’s impressive to everyone & DH does that, but the amount of the time he was simply asked to get the ball to a superior athlete, near the los, is college football only... you can’t learn much from it.

 

Jones gets ripped for dumping the ball off, but his depth of target numbers were nearly identical. Scouts believe Jones could have put up DH numbers at OSU, but the reality is, he probably wouldn’t have beaten out Tate Martell. 

 

To put it more clearly, the lesser the ypt, the more you’re seen to be relying on what’s around you rather than making those around you better.

 

DH has young QB issues that were masked by great scheme & slow opponents — but the fact that he was so prolific with his 2nd read passes shows a maturity you rarely see from guys in year 1... particularly strict pocket passers, it’s not comfortable moving off of your first read, but DH excelled at it in his only year starting.

 

Haskins will need to adjust to the speed of the defenses & the absence of any advantage in his weapons, he will have to make more advanced throws in far lesser conditions vs far superior athletes.

 

 

[RandyHolt]

Uh oh.

 

We don't like tweets raining on our parade!

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

If he pans out for us, then the best thing that could have happened for the Redskins future, was for the narrative to be set on Dwayne Haskins in September of his first season season starting college football.

 

I get the PSU criticisms.  I watched that game live, and it soured me on Haskins for months.  The narrative from that game continued on throughout the draft process.  So if Haskins pans out, thank you PSU for highlighting his issues and setting the narrative so early.

 

----------------------------

On a side note, I notice that whenever clips show Haskins working out somewhere, or how he worked out at his Pro Day, or how he worked out during first OTA's, he has some coach/trainer with a pad mock rush him from various angles so Haskins has to move his feet every rep.  I like that, and I can't recall other QB's doing that with such frequency (but maybe I'm just not paying attention).  I suspect his desire to work out in that fashion stems from the narrative and that PSU game.

[Llevron]

7 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

I suspect his desire to work out in that fashion stems from the narrative and that PSU game.

 

He actually said his dad has been making him do that since he was a kid. Its probably something that worked and he just kept it up. He says that particular drill or whatever you would call it is the reason he doesn't have to look at pressure anymore. He just "feels" it, which is want you want from what I understand. 

 

46 minutes ago, volsmet said:

 

It’s not truly ypa, it’s depth of target, my apologies for that. It’s, as you know, just more difficult to make longer throws, it’s easier to take things away in the NFL — Haskins averaged 7.8 ypt & 22% of his targets were to Campbell who only averaged 4.5 yards of depth per target — that’s the kind of thing scouts believe any draft-worthy could replicate in college, it’s simplifying things to a point that you can’t project it, you can’t throw the ball, 111 times, to a guy averaging 4.5 ypt, and move the football in the nfl. You hit a guy running 4.3 down the sideline & it’s impressive to everyone & DH does that, but the amount of the time he was simply asked to get the ball to a superior athlete, near the los, is college football only... you can’t learn much from it.

 

Jones gets ripped for dumping the ball off, but his depth of target numbers were nearly identical. Scouts believe Jones could have put up DH numbers at OSU, but the reality is, he probably wouldn’t have beaten out Tate Martell. 

 

To put it more clearly, the lesser the ypt, the more you’re seen to be relying on what’s around you rather than making those around you better.

 

Thanks for the good answer. The bold makes all the sense in the world. I had not seen it that way previously. 

 

As for the tweets, I do wonder if he helped to alleviate any of the concerns at the end of the year. My understanding was that he improved significantly those last few games. The concern I guess would be if he was just hot. But then you could say that about his entire season and thats, basically, the issue.  

 

 

[volsmet]

12 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

Uh oh.

 

We don't like tweets raining on our parade!

 

Dwayne has the prototype traits you can’t teach - size, arm talent, drive, & mind. He doesn’t have the “get out of jail free” card that Dak, Wilson, Murray, Mahomes, Cam & even Luck have... he can’t rescue a drive when an assignment is blown up front, you will have to scheme nearly every yard he gets... but, with his ability, mentally & physically, you can draw up any throws in the world & he can make them ... easily. He gets the ball up & over defenders in zones, I think his best pass of the year was in the 2nd half v Washington, a time he was struggling a bit & the defensive call should have taken the pass away... it wasn’t a bad read DH forced in, it was just ability that allowed him to make an absurdly difficult throw look routine. 

 

Jay should be more eager to work than he’s ever been, this is a young guy you can mold, he can make every pass & he will know what Jay wants to do ... this is the ultimate test & opportunity for our coach/coaches. 

 

[Mooka]

1 hour ago, teamcal00 said:

Agreed. But that has no bearing about the knock of talent playing around him

 

Yea but its direct evidence Murray can play regardless of what's around him.

 

Can't say the same for Haskins or at least there's far less evidence.

[volsmet]

6 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Thanks for the good answer. The bold makes all the sense in the world. I had not seen it that way previously. 

 

As for the tweets, I do wonder if he helped to alleviate any of the concerns at the end of the year. My understanding was that he improved significantly those last few games. The concern I guess would be if he was just hot. But then you could say that about his entire season and thats, basically, the issue.  

 

 

 

The 2020 class is loaded, everyone loves Fromm, but I don’t doubt Haskins is as gifted a prospect as Jake Fromm is. Fromm looked like garbage against my pitiful Vols, he held the ball all day, he processes things more slowly, he didn’t take care of the ball. If I had to win a game today, I’d take Haskins over Fromm. Jake is younger and absurdly gifted, but Dwayne is a better QB today, imo.