The Washington Nationals Thread: The Future is Near!

[PleaseBlitz]

13 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Most polarizing ballplayers ever, eh? Right up there with Ty Cobb and Pete Rose? Totally. 

 

Pete Rose was a cheater, so included in my caveat.  Is Ty Cobb polarizing?  I think everyone pretty much agrees that he was a POS and a stellar ballplayer. 

[Spaceman Spiff]

7 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Pete Rose was a cheater, so included in my caveat.  Is Ty Cobb polarizing?  I think everyone pretty much agrees that he was a POS and a stellar ballplayer. 

 

I think the new information about Ty Cobb that has come to light over recent years has shown that the Al Stump stories are works of fiction.

 

I don't think Pete Rose cheated while he played, so we can agree to disagree.

 

So then who in baseball is so polarizing that Strasburg is right up there with them?

[Metalhead]

Why is everyone using the word "polarizing"? In common usage it implies that people strongly dislike or hate as well as like. Stras was NOT polarizing.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Metalhead

[PleaseBlitz]

1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I think the new information about Ty Cobb that has come to light over recent years has shown that the Al Stump stories are works of fiction.

 

Not sure I've seen this.  Also not sure it matters with respect to whether or not most people agree that Ty Cobb wasn't a good person, but was a hell of a baseball player.  That's not polarized, that's agreement on two different things.  

 

1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I don't think Pete Rose cheated while he played, so we can agree to disagree.

 

I guess if you are slicing Rose's career into (1) player and (2) manager (when he cheated), you could do that, but my statement treated him as one thing. 

 

1 minute ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

So then who in baseball is so polarizing that Strasburg is right up there with them?

 

I dunno, that's why I said Strasburg is on the short list.  Did you get confused about your role here? 

[PleaseBlitz]

3 minutes ago, Metalhead said:

Why is everyone using the word "polarizing"? In common usage it implies that people strongly dislike or hate as well as like. Stras was NOT polarizing.

 

Because I think a lot of fans think Strasburg was a bust for not living up to the hype (as the most hyped pitching prospect of all time, the (IMO unfair) expectation was hall of famer) and was injured too much, and, at the same time, a lot of other fans think he had an incredible career (3x All Star, WS MVP, 31 career WAR). 

[Metalhead]

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Because I think a lot of fans think Strasburg was a bust for not living up to the hype (as the most hyped pitching prospect of all time, the (IMO unfair) expectation was hall of famer) and was injured too much, and, at the same time, a lot of other fans think he had an incredible career (3x All Star, WS MVP, 31 career WAR). 

 

I still don't think polarizing is the right word. You all are referring to expectation and whether it was met or not.

[PleaseBlitz]

1 minute ago, Metalhead said:

 

I still don't think polarizing is the right word. You all are referring to expectation and whether it was met or not.

Polarizing
adjective
po·lar·iz·ing

causing strong disagreement between opposing factions or groupings

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polarizing?utm_campaign=sd&utm_medium=serp&utm_source=jsonld

 

 

Seems right to me. 

[ixcuincle]

So sad to hear about Strasburg. 

 

I was always a very big fan. I had this in my "man cave" for many years. 

 

 

Reading the article he suffers from chronic pain and ordinary tasks hurt. Tough to read. 

[Riggo#44]

 

 

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

2019 was so awesome. I think we're all convinced that team outperformed just from awesome team chemistry.

[TheGoodBits]

I’ll never forgot attending Strasmas. And I’ll never forget the ridiculously brazen confidence I had that the Nats were going to win the World Series *after* their game 5 loss. Why? Because I knew Strasburg was going to shut down the Astros in game 6. I had zero doubt it was back to Scherzer in game 7. 
 

It’s a damn shame we didn’t get to see him healthy for more of his career. 

[skinsmarydu]

Last game I watched with my dad was Braves (me, but he loooovvved Maddux back in the day) and the Nats with Steve pitching. 

Dad had Alz, but he remembered who I was and when I was "going back to Atlanta" and we talked as much as we could. 

That will always be a highlight in my life.

[Warhead36]

Stras should be considered a made man for life in the DC sports landscape and legacy/lore. His number needs to be retired and a statue put up in his honor.

 

Anyone who even suggests he might have been a bust should be institutionalized. 
 

Thank you for all the fantastic memories Stras. 

[ixcuincle]

https://x.com/jonmorosi/status/1694859519619133456?s=46&t=F_c7yion5spNpsGgZsQcQQ

 

Mike Rizzo is viewed within the baseball industry as a potential candidate for the White Sox top baseball operations position, as his extension with the Nationals has yet to be finalized.

[Dan T.]

54 minutes ago, ixcuincle said:

https://x.com/jonmorosi/status/1694859519619133456?s=46&t=F_c7yion5spNpsGgZsQcQQ

 

Mike Rizzo is viewed within the baseball industry as a potential candidate for the White Sox top baseball operations position, as his extension with the Nationals has yet to be finalized.

 

Well that would suck. He grew up in Chicago, so those roots might be a factor.  Hope not.  

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

16 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Not sure I've seen this.  Also not sure it matters with respect to whether or not most people agree that Ty Cobb wasn't a good person, but was a hell of a baseball player.  That's not polarized, that's agreement on two different things.  

 

 

Ah, the old "Not sure I've seen this," defense.  

 

But no one could like Ty Cobb because he was allegedly an asshole.  Like I said, a lot of those stories are fiction.  Cobb wasn't as bad as say, Rogers Hornsby who was probably closer to everything Cobb was supposedly guilty of being.  We can agree that he was a great baseball player, we happen to disagree on the fact that he was an asshole simply because you're still in the dark

 

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I guess if you are slicing Rose's career into (1) player and (2) manager (when he cheated), you could do that, but my statement treated him as one thing. 

 

 

Correct.  Curious as to where you draw the lines of cheating though...steroid era, obviously, gambling obviously.  Corking bats?  What about guys like Hank Aaron who used greenies? That's a PED, right?

 

Quote

I dunno, that's why I said Strasburg is on the short list.  Did you get confused about your role here? 

 

 

I don't think there's anything polarizing about Strasburg.  I think a lot of people wished he were able to stay healthy but I bet he wishes that, too.  I doubt that there are many people out there that are labeling him a bust.

[The Evil Genius]

While I'll admit that I've viewed Stras as overrated (especially in light of some annoying Nats fans who claimed generational talent for him and Harper), had he pitched another average (for him) season with 20+ starts he'd have had a career almost similar to Sandy Koufax. 

 

Koufax had 50 more career wins but only pitched 9 seasons with 20+ starts. Stras had 8 if i am counting correctly.

 

To me, the biggest what if on Stras will always be what if the Nats hadn't babied him in 2012. Shutting him down in early September while mired in a pennant race. 🤔

[PleaseBlitz]

2 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Ah, the old "Not sure I've seen this," defense.  

 

But no one could like Ty Cobb because he was allegedly an asshole.  Like I said, a lot of those stories are fiction.  Cobb wasn't as bad as say, Rogers Hornsby who was probably closer to everything Cobb was supposedly guilty of being.  We can agree that he was a great baseball player, we happen to disagree on the fact that he was an asshole simply because you're still in the dark

 

Whether or not there is some obscure update to Ty Cobb's biography doesn't really impact whether most people still think he was a huge asshole.  They might not have the most recent information, but almost certainly, most people still think that.  

 

 

2 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

 

Correct.  Curious as to where you draw the lines of cheating though...steroid era, obviously, gambling obviously.  Corking bats?  What about guys like Hank Aaron who used greenies? That's a PED, right?

 

Definitely not many clear lines after gambling and roids.  Gambling isn't really even cheating in a way that helps you succeed in baseball, it's just wrong and against the rules.  Corking bats would seem to be cheating to me.  Greenies, I'm not sure.  That seems to be getting into territory of like, is Adderall performance enhancing if you have ADHD?  Yea, probably, but not in the same way roids are.  Certainly, for purposes of this discussion, we can limit "polarization" to the obvious cheaters. Is there a HOFer (or notable player) who is inextricably linked to corked bats in the way that roids are for Bonds (and most many of the other superstars during that era) or cheating is for Rose?  That'd be more news to me. 

 

For example, in Joe Posnanski's excellent Baseball 100 project, which I know you've read, he mentions steroids 16 times in Barry Bonds' article (yet still ranks him above Aaron).  Hank Aaron's piece mentions performance enhancing drugs, including greenies, zero times.  Steroids and Bonds are simply linked in a way that greenies and Aaron are not.  The entire thesis of Joe P's article on Bonds is how polarizing he is.  Actual quote in the article's setup:  "So for Barry Bonds, we have no choice but to write two stories. It works like so: If you like Bonds — or at least respect him enough to read about his greatness without losing your mind — you only need to read the sections headlined “For Bonds Fans.”"  He then literally wrote 2 separate articles, one about Bond's greatness and one about his roids use and being a huge asshole. 

 

2 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

I don't think there's anything polarizing about Strasburg.  I think a lot of people wished he were able to stay healthy but I bet he wishes that, too.  I doubt that there are many people out there that are labeling him a bust.

 

Well, I think you are a DC guy, even if you cling to your Orioles fandom.  I think most people in and around DC hold your view (as I do).  I think most people outside of DC, think he's maybe not a bust, but something close to it, someone who dramatically failed to live up to expectations.  Per my group text chain that includes a Cardinals fan (BEST FANS IN BASEBALL! 🤮), Strasburg "had all the talent in thew world, but only lived up to it for a few brilliant stretches."  And that was him trying to be nice so I didn't bite his head off. 

[Warhead36]

Stras absolutely was a generational talent. What are we talking about? He has one of the best postseason ERAs ever. Led the league in strikeouts at one point. He was as dominant as anyone. Multiple all stars. A freaking WORLD SERIES MVP.

 

He was hit with the injury bug. That doesn't take away from his talent. When he was on he was as good as anyone in the league. And on top of that, he was the primary catalyst of putting this franchise on the national(no pun intended) map.

[PleaseBlitz]

20 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

had he pitched another average (for him) season with 20+ starts he'd have had a career almost similar to Sandy Koufax. 

 

That's bit of a stretch.  

22 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

To me, the biggest what if on Stras will always be what if the Nats hadn't babied him in 2012. Shutting him down in early September while mired in a pennant race. 🤔

 

It irks me that people hold this against Stras.  It wasn't his choice. It was something that happened to him. 

[TheGoodBits]

49 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

 

To me, the biggest what if on Stras will always be what if the Nats hadn't babied him in 2012. Shutting him down in early September while mired in a pennant race. 🤔

Nats spent a decade building a championship caliber team, a perineal contender, build around a dominant rotation. All the “what if” questions are completely pointless to me because to me the single biggest goal was winning a championship, and they succeeded. 
 

What if they hadn’t shut him down in 2012? Doesn’t matter, he was healthy and the biggest reason we won a championship in 2019.

 

What if he had been healthier for more seasons? Would have been nice but doesn’t really matter, we got the championship. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by TheGoodBits

[Warhead36]

The shutdown was absolutely the right call. I won't even get into that discussion again and its not something you can pin on Stras anyway. It was a 100% Mike Rizzo decision and it was 100% correct.

[Riggo#44]

2 hours ago, The Evil Genius said:

To me, the biggest what if on Stras will always be what if the Nats hadn't babied him in 2012. Shutting him down in early September while mired in a pennant race. 🤔

Given his health issues, I don't know how anyone can question shutting him down. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by Riggo#44

[CRobi21]

Stupid new Twitter won't embed still.

 

Nightengale and TalkNats saying Rizzo is staying put in DC. Expected to be announced soon.

 

https://x.com/talknats/status/1695112617507921925?s=46

Edited August 25, 2023 by CRobi21

[Spaceman Spiff]

2 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Whether or not there is some obscure update to Ty Cobb's biography doesn't really impact whether most people still think he was a huge asshole.  They might not have the most recent information, but almost certainly, most people still think that.  

 

 

 

 

Well, it's really not obscure:  https://www.amazon.com/Ty-Cobb-Terrible-Charles-Leerhsen/dp/1451645791  To your point, most people are wrong.  

 

Quote

Definitely not many clear lines after gambling and roids.  Gambling isn't really even cheating in a way that helps you succeed in baseball, it's just wrong and against the rules.  Corking bats would seem to be cheating to me.  Greenies, I'm not sure.  That seems to be getting into territory of like, is Adderall performance enhancing if you have ADHD?  Yea, probably, but not in the same way roids are.  Certainly, for purposes of this discussion, we can limit "polarization" to the obvious cheaters. Is there a HOFer (or notable player) who is inextricably linked to corked bats in the way that roids are for Bonds (and most many of the other superstars during that era) or cheating is for Rose?  That'd be more news to me. 

 

For example, in Joe Posnanski's excellent Baseball 100 project, which I know you've read, he mentions steroids 16 times in Barry Bonds' article (yet still ranks him above Aaron).  Hank Aaron's piece mentions performance enhancing drugs, including greenies, zero times.  Steroids and Bonds are simply linked in a way that greenies and Aaron are not.  The entire thesis of Joe P's article on Bonds is how polarizing he is.  Actual quote in the article's setup:  "So for Barry Bonds, we have no choice but to write two stories. It works like so: If you like Bonds — or at least respect him enough to read about his greatness without losing your mind — you only need to read the sections headlined “For Bonds Fans.”"  He then literally wrote 2 separate articles, one about Bond's greatness and one about his roids use and being a huge asshole. 

 

 

 

I think people overlook greenies because good guys like Hank Aaron and Willie Mays took them.  And everyone likes Hank Aaron and Willie Mays.  There's a generation of fans who don't want to do anything to besmirch the gods of the game that they grew up watching and have spent years mythologizing.  Plus greenies sound more innocent than, say, Stanozolol.  I've always felt that when the name of the drugs are hard to pronounce, that's when people get up in arms.  To your point about Adderrall, they started testing for greenies in 2006 and replaced them with Adderall...and I don't believe they all have ADHD:  https://www.axios.com/2019/12/04/drug-makes-ballplayers-immortal-adderall  

 

But greenies were a widespread thing in baseball for decades.  They were performance enhancers, there's not really much debate about that.  It is also easier to hate Barry Bonds because he was a jerk and love Hank Aaron and Willie Mays because they were not...and overlook what Aaron and Mays and the rest took because baseball likes to romance the past more than anything else.  And Joe Posnanski (as much as I love reading his stuff) loves to romance baseball (his new book coming out in September looks great) so he's not here to do any hard hitting expose on Aaron or anyone from that era since that stuff has been partially swept under the rug for him.  But you can't discuss Bonds without discussing what he did and so he's forced to confront it.  So recency bias is a big thing here, plus shady characters like Victor Conte with shady laboratories and and hard to pronounce drug names and no one's truly interested in throwing dirt on Hank Aaron's name...or any legendary player from 1945-1980.  

 

In regards to Bonds, there are two stories indeed; the first half of his career and the 2nd half of his career when he was juicing.  Both careers are Hall of Fame worthy.

 

Quote

Well, I think you are a DC guy, even if you cling to your Orioles fandom.  I think most people in and around DC hold your view (as I do).  I think most people outside of DC, think he's maybe not a bust, but something close to it, someone who dramatically failed to live up to expectations.  Per my group text chain that includes a Cardinals fan (BEST FANS IN BASEBALL! 🤮), Strasburg "had all the talent in thew world, but only lived up to it for a few brilliant stretches."  And that was him trying to be nice so I didn't bite his head off. 

 

 

Unfortunately I am a DC guy.  I take no pride in that as I really don't like the area  but I do like seeing teams other than the Commies doing well.  I don't get mad when the Nats are good and I don't take joy in kicking them while they're down, except to rile up @Riggo#44 which is like taking candy from a baby.  He's an easy mark.

 

Your Cardinals fan can go ****ing kick rocks though...the first part of that statement "had all the talent in the world," always sounds like a precursor to something more sinister like "but he couldn't lay off the cocaine."  The facts are that he got hurt often enough to de-rail what should have been a Hall of Fame career.  But he's not a bust.

 

Of all the #1 draft picks in history (starting in 1965) only 22 have been all stars.  Only three are Hall of Famers (and one of them Harold Baines, is a dubious choice).  Two of them never made it to the majors (Brien Taylor would have, he ruined his shoulder in a bar fight). 

 

So the expectations of Strasburg to become a Hall of Famer were outright ridiculous.  To declare someone who pitched parts of 13 years in the majors, lead the league in various categories, picked up Cy Young votes in three separate years and was a 3 time All Star and a WS MVP and one of the best postseason pitchers ever is far, far from a bust.  On the spectrum between Hall of Famer and bust, Strasburg trends closer to Hall of Famer than the other end.  Your Cardinals buddy friend can shove that one up his ass.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Spaceman Spiff