Avengers Infinity War - HERE BE SPOILERS!

[Spaceman Spiff]

5 hours ago, Mournblade said:

 

 

 

Personally I'd like to see a Vision movie, but it will never happen. I think they kind of screwed up the Vision character in the Avengers movies. No

where as cool as the Vision from the comics or Earth Mightiest Heroes animated series. 

 

Was never into comics that much, other than the occasional Batman/X-men/Iron-Man/Punisher.  What was Vision like in the comics?  Cause I can't stand him in the movies.  

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Vision went from being overpowered God mode in Ultron and Civil War with powers he basically makes up as he wants them to being a massively weak punk ass in Infinity War that gets stabbed once and is basically dead for the next 2 hours  

[Spaceman Spiff]

8 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Vision went from being overpowered God mode in Ultron and Civil War with powers he basically makes up as he wants them to being a massively weak punk ass in Infinity War that gets stabbed once and is basically dead for the next 2 hours  

 

That's kinda what I thought.  The faster they could have pulled that rock out of his head the better.  Was so sick of seeing him being a whiny **** for 2.5 hours.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Why did that even hurt him anyway? Hes a robot he doesn’t have nerves and he can turn into a ghost and float thru solid objects. Why does a stab suddenly near fatally wound him 

 

stark is a human and was stabbed by the most powerful being in the universe, sprayed a little icy hot on it and he was good to go 

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Was never into comics that much, other than the occasional Batman/X-men/Iron-Man/Punisher.  What was Vision like in the comics?  Cause I can't stand him in the movies.  

Vision was kind of like Data from Star Trek, The Next Generation. He was trying very hard to be human. In the 80's, I think he did marry the Scarlet Witch. I stopped reading comics in the 90's for the most part so I don't know how he evolved from there.

[Mournblade]

nm

[Going Commando]

14 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

not to mention he was just wrong wrong in general. The Avengers need oversight because of what happened. The wrong guy was put In Charge of that oversight but doesn’t change the fact. Stark is 100% right in that movie 

 

 

Registration was a disaster, in both the comics and the movie.  In the comics, Stark and Mr Fantastic were wrongheaded morons pushing specious reasoning in support of it.  In the movies SRA was a Thunderbolt Ross and Hydra ploy that Tony happily goes along with because he can't deal with his guilt for the consequences of his own stupidity and recklessness.  He is completely wrong.

[Spaceman Spiff]

4 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Why did that even hurt him anyway? Hes a robot he doesn’t have nerves and he can turn into a ghost and float thru solid objects. Why does a stab suddenly near fatally wound him 

 

stark is a human and was stabbed by the most powerful being in the universe, sprayed a little icy hot on it and he was good to go 

 

This is one of my biggest beef with comic book movies.  I get that a lot of disbelief needs to be suspended here but there's often times inconsistencies with how characters react to things.  I forget which Superman it was (one of the recent ones) but he was all doubled over because he got a little kryptonite on him, then 20 minutes later he's hurling a big ass rock through space with even more kryptonite on it  and it's no big deal. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

9 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

 

Registration was a disaster, in both the comics and the movie.  In the comics, Stark and Mr Fantastic were wrongheaded morons pushing specious reasoning in support of it.  In the movies SRA was a Thunderbolt Ross and Hydra ploy that Tony happily goes along with because he can't deal with his guilt for the consequences of his own stupidity and recklessness.  He is completely wrong.

 

I dont care about the comics. In the movies, none of that is reflected. Cap’s decision to immediately plunge the team into chaos without even trying to see if it worked was wrong. I understand why he had reservations after TWS but he didn’t even try and it was all based on his own hypothetical paranoia. If he ended up being right, he could always bail on the accords later just like Black Widow did in Civil War and Rhodes has done now. But instead, he comes off like some pompous ass that doesn’t want to be checked and thinks he is forever above the law. He was wrong.  

[Burgold]

7 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

I dont care about the comics. In the movies, none of that is reflected. Cap’s decision to immediately plunge the team into chaos without even trying to see if it worked was wrong. I understand why he had reservations after TWS but he didn’t even try and it was all based on his own hypothetical paranoia. If he ended up being right, he could always bail on the accords later just like Black Widow did in Civil War and Rhodes has done now. But instead, he comes off like some pompous ass that doesn’t want to be checked and thinks he is forever above the law. He was wrong.  

One thing that you may want to consider is Cap is a WWII soldier. When he thinks of registering races and eugenics, his best reference would be the Nazis and Extermination Camps. So, it isn't lets try creating a Jewish Ghetto for superheroes and see if it works out swell... it's I've seen what happens when people begin segregating and registering people they don't like based on prejudice.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Well I’m not going to project motivations onto people that are not shown in the movie. If Cap had mentioned that as a reason for his hesitation, we might be on the same page. I’d still question his intelligence of not being able to distinguish the differences between rounding up millions of innocent Jews and registering a handful of superpowered individuals with the ability to wipe out the entire planet in a matter of moments. Especially after they just killed thousands of innocent people in collateral damage in their last two appearances

[TradeTheBeal!]

13 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Vision went from being overpowered God mode in Ultron and Civil War with powers he basically makes up as he wants them to being a massively weak punk ass in Infinity War that gets stabbed once and is basically dead for the next 2 hours  

 

That Scarlet Witch tooch put some changes on him.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 minute ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

That Scarlet Witch tooch put some changes on him.

 

As it would all of us ...

[TradeTheBeal!]

4 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

As it would all of us ...

 

Needed some Black Widow to get his mind right.  Alas, it was not to be...

[Momma There Goes That Man]

Quote

t. Col. James Rhodes: Secretary Ross has a Congressional Medal of Honor, which is one more than you have. 

Sam Wilson: So let's say we agreed to this thing. How long is it gonna be before they lojack us like a bunch of common criminals? 

Lt. Col. James Rhodes: 117 countries wanna sign this. 117, Sam, and you're just like, "Nah, it's cool." 

Sam Wilson: How long are you gonna play both sides? 

Vision: I have an equation. 

Sam Wilson: [sarcastically] Oh, this'll clear it up. 

Vision: In the 8 years since Mr. Stark announced himself as Iron Man, the number of known enhanced persons has grown exponentially. And during the same period, a number of potentially world-ending events has risen at a commensurable rate. 

Steve Rogers: Are you saying it's our fault? 

Vision: I'm saying there may be a causality. Our very strength invites challenge. Challenge incites conflict. And conflict... breeds catastrophe. Oversight... Oversight is not an idea that can be dismissed out of hand. 

Lt. Col. James Rhodes: Boom! 

Natasha Romanoff: Tony? You are being uncharacteristically non-hyperverbal. 

Steve Rogers: That's 'cause he's already made up his mind. 

Tony Stark: Boy, you know me so well. Actually, I'm nursing an electromagnetic headache. That's what's going on, Cap. It's just pain. It's discomfort. Who's putting coffee grounds in the disposal? Am I running a Bed and Breakfast for a biker gang? 

[puts phone on table, screen pops up]

Tony Stark: Oh, that's Charles Spencer, by the way. He's a great kid. Computer engineering degree, 3.6 GPA. Had a floor-level gig, an intel plan for the fall. But first he wanted to put a few miles on his sole before he parked it behind a desk. See the world, maybe be of service. Charlie didn't wanna go to Vegas or Fort Lauderdale, which is what I would do. He didn't go to Paris or Amsterdam, which sounds fun. He decided to spend his summer building sustainable housing for the poor. Guess where: Sokovia. He wanted to make a difference, I suppose. I mean, we won't know because we dropped a building on him while we were kickin' ass... There's no decision-making process here. We need to be put in check! And whatever form that takes, I'm game. If we can't accept limitations, we're boundaryless, we're no better than the bad guys. 

Steve Rogers: Tony, if someone dies on your watch, you don't give up. 

Tony Stark: Who said we're giving up? 

Steve Rogers: We are if we're not taking responsibility for our actions. This document just shifts the blame. 

Lt. Col. James Rhodes: Sorry, Steve, that... that is dangerously arrogant. This is the United Nations we're talking about. It's not the World Security Council, it's not S.H.I.E.L.D., it's not Hydra. 

Steve Rogers: No, but it's run by people with agendas and agendas change. 

Tony Stark: That's good! That's why I'm here. When I realized what my weapons were capable of in the wrong hands, I shut it down. Stopped manufacturing. 

Steve Rogers: Tony, you *chose* to do that. If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us? We may not be perfect but the safest hands are still our own. 

Tony Stark: If we don't do this now, it's gonna be done to us later. That's the fact. That won't be pretty. 

Wanda Maximoff: You're saying they'll come for me. 

Vision: We would protect you. 

Natasha Romanoff: Maybe Tony's right. If we have one hand on the wheel, we can still steer. If we take it off..

.

l(later)

Tony Stark: Sometimes I wanna punch you in your perfect teeth. But I don't wanna see you gone. We need you, Cap. So far nothing's happen that can't be undone. Please, sign. We can make the last 24 hours legit. Barnes gets transferred to an American psych center instead of a Wakandan prison. 

Steve Rogers: I'm not saying it's impossible. But there would have to be safeguards. 

Tony Stark: Sure! Once we put out the PR - they're documents. They can be amended. I file a motion, have you and Wanda reinstated...

 

So again, Cap’s argument is extremely weak. Something about shifting blame and not taking responsibility which doesn’t make any sense at all. “I think we should take responsibility for our actions so I won’t sign the documents that by checking us are forcing us to take responsibility for our actions”

 

Then he’s concerned about not having choice when nothing is locking him into the accords if it goes south. He could make his choice when something he didn’t agree with presented itself. Instead he chooses to basically torpedo  the avengers. 

[Burgold]

8 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

So again, Cap’s argument is extremely weak. Something about shifting blame and not taking responsibility which doesn’t make any sense at all. “I think we should take responsibility for our actions so I won’t sign the documents that by checking us are forcing us to take responsibility for our actions”

 

Then he’s concerned about not having choice when nothing is locking him into the accords if it goes south. He could make his choice when something he didn’t agree with presented itself. Instead he chooses to basically torpedo  the avengers. 

Maybe it's me, but I read a ton of fear of Nazism in that quoted block.

 

Wanda Maximoff: You're saying they'll come for me. 

Sam Wilson: So let's say we agreed to this thing. How long is it gonna be before they lojack us like a bunch of common criminals? 

Steve Rogers: Tony, you *chose* to do that. If we sign this, we surrender our right to choose. What if this panel sends us somewhere we don't think we should go? What if there's somewhere we need to go and they don't let us? We may not be perfect but the safest hands are still our own. 

Steve Rogers: No, but it's run by people with agendas and agendas change. 

 

[Renegade7]

46 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Well I’m not going to project motivations onto people that are not shown in the movie. If Cap had mentioned that as a reason for his hesitation, we might be on the same page. I’d still question his intelligence of not being able to distinguish the differences between rounding up millions of innocent Jews and registering a handful of superpowered individuals with the ability to wipe out the entire planet in a matter of moments. Especially after they just killed thousands of innocent people in collateral damage in their last two appearances

I'm weary of your opinion on this if you don't care about the comics and basing many of your opinions on the movies.  I think you need to use both in any discussion like this.

 

Have to keep in mind X-Men is in the same universe, so the Us vs Them thing isn't touched on the same way in the MCCU because they don't have rights to them.  In the comics, Iron Man went way too far and it became a Freedom vs Security discussion.  Your assumptions on Cap giving it a chance doesn't fly, because it would've definitely went south and Iron Man wasn't going to leave with Cap anyway, Avengers would've split anyway even if Cap stayed a little while longer to see what he already saw coming.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm weary of your opinion on this if you don't care about the comics and basing many of your opinions on the movies.  I think you need to use both in any discussion like this.

 

Have to keep in mind X-Men is in the same universe, so the Us vs Them thing isn't touched on the same way in the MCCU because they don't have rights to them.  In the comics, Iron Man went way too far and it became a Freedom vs Security discussion.  Your assumptions on Cap giving it a chance doesn't fly, because it would've definitely went south and Iron Man wasn't going to leave with Cap anyway, Avengers would've split anyway even if Cap stayed a little while longer to see what he already saw coming.

 

You cant carry the comic storylines into the movies tho. You have to go by what is presented in the movies since the stories and reasons differ. The movies appeal to casual audiences not just comic book nerds which is why the make a billion dollars guanrteed every time. As such, most people that see these have no comic book references to fall back on. Going by what is presented in the movies is the only thing we can do. 

 

The reasons and desires that led to civil war in the comics were completely different than what is shown in the movies too. It’s irrelevant 

 

xmen isnt a shared universe yet so again that too is irrelevant to the MCU movies right now 

 

Cap doesn’t kno it would have gone south tho. He assumed it would and plunged the Avengers into chaos. The authorities weren’t wrong to want Bucky in custody either. 

[ixcuincle]

I recently watched GoTG 1 and 2 this weekend, I was curious why they never showed Thanos going after the Power Stone in Infinity War, as it was put safely in the hands of the Nova Corps on Xandar at the ending of 1. And if he did go after it, why didn't John C Reilly or Glenn Close warn the Guardians of the Galaxy that someone was trying to take the stone? 

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

I dont care about the comics. In the movies, none of that is reflected. Cap’s decision to immediately plunge the team into chaos without even trying to see if it worked was wrong. I understand why he had reservations after TWS but he didn’t even try and it was all based on his own hypothetical paranoia. If he ended up being right, he could always bail on the accords later just like Black Widow did in Civil War and Rhodes has done now. But instead, he comes off like some pompous ass that doesn’t want to be checked and thinks he is forever above the law. He was wrong.  

 

He was always right.  And when Thunderbolt Ross is the brains and face of an initiative it's a dead giveaway that it's wrong.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

He was always right.  And when Thunderbolt Ross is the brains and face of an initiative it's a dead giveaway that it's wrong.

 

They didn’t pick the right guy to lead it but the idea behind it isn’t wrong and Cap was wrong to so willingly plunge the avengers into chaos based on his paranoia 

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

They didn’t pick the right guy to lead it but the idea behind it isn’t wrong and Cap was wrong to so willingly plunge the avengers into chaos based on his paranoia 

 Now you sound naive thinking the person in charge doesn't matter and neither does who they have to answer to.

 

I can't get down with your choice to leave out the comics in your opinion of any comic franchise.  By that logic, you're judging DC by the deplorable job Snyder has done with the live action movies.  Professor X and Magneto are based off MLK and Malcom X and Stan Lee wanting to find some way to talk about the Civil Rights movement, you really gonna want to throw that away because you don't like what they did with Phoenix in X3?

[PeterMP]

5 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

I dont care about the comics. In the movies, none of that is reflected. Cap’s decision to immediately plunge the team into chaos without even trying to see if it worked was wrong. I understand why he had reservations after TWS but he didn’t even try and it was all based on his own hypothetical paranoia. If he ended up being right, he could always bail on the accords later just like Black Widow did in Civil War and Rhodes has done now. But instead, he comes off like some pompous ass that doesn’t want to be checked and thinks he is forever above the law. He was wrong.  

 

The fundamental issue is that Caps sees his word/signature as bonding.  Tony sees them as a PR maneuver and realistically, not important or meaningful beyond that.

 

Cap doesn't see signing the documents and seeing if things go wrong and then breaking his pledge (based on his signature) a (good) option.

 

It is a fundamental difference between the older concept of your word being meaningful vs. the legal/newer idea of a contract is something to wiggle your way out of and you take care of the bad PR in front of you first.

 

Cap being from the 1940s represents the older idea.  Tony being a modern US businessman represent the newer idea.

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

They didn’t pick the right guy to lead it but the idea behind it isn’t wrong and Cap was wrong to so willingly plunge the avengers into chaos based on his paranoia 

 

Captain America was not paranoid.  He was right that Hydra had infiltrated the highest levels of government.  He was right not to trust Thunderbolt Ross.  Ross is a villain and a hypocrite who isn't interested in accountability or civilian safety.  He's after the monopolization of power in his own hands.  People like Ross being in charge of the official levers of power are one of the core reasons why SRA was always going to be a terrible idea.

 

Also, you're arguing that Cap was wrong for being right about SRA from the get go and opposing it?  That doesn't compute.  Why aren't you blaming Tony for fracturing the Avengers with his shortsightedness and need to feel punished for the guilt he felt in creating Ultron (which was done, initially in secret, and ultimately against the approval of Captain America)?  They should have all gone along with Cap from the get go and bam, the Avengers don't get broken up.

 

This is a Jefferson vs Hamilton type conflict, and in this case, the Jeffersonians were right.  The government of the MCU is not trustworthy because it has been profoundly compromised.  Everyone eventually comes to see that Cap was right about this, including Tony.  The ultimate schism between Tony and Rogers came because Rogers protected Winter Soldier when Tony wanted to take revenge on him for killing his parents while he was under the control of Hydra.

 

Anyway, one thing you need to understand about the Steve Rogers character is that he is the moral compass for the Marvel universe.  You can pretty much always trust that the stance he takes is the right one.  Tony Stark is a far more dubious character.

[Mrshadow008]

On 5/5/2018 at 2:36 PM, Warhead36 said:

What other Marvel movies are there left to make in this universe? Spider Man has a sequel, as does Black Panther, but that's it right? Iron Man, Thor, and Cap are all done.

 

Also, why was there never a Mark Ruffalo Hulk stand alone film franchise? I know the Edward Norton Hulk movie bombed, but still.

In regards to the hulk it has something to do with his movie rights. While marvel holds the hulks rights contractually universal has the right of first refusal to any standalone hulk movie. They do not hold this as far as ensemble movies which is why he’s able to show up in the avengers and Thor but you probably won’t see a stand-alone hulk movie anytime soon. Also many is this thread are assuming that Spider-Man’s and Gamoras deaths can not possibly be permanent because they both have upcoming sequels. It is quite possible they are both permanent and here’s why. Guardians of the galaxy 2 takes place 4 years before infinity year and Spider-Man homecoming takes place 2 years before infinity war. Now the plan for Spider-Man has been stated they plan to do a sequel for each year of high school starting with his sophomore year which was obviously homecoming. So the second one would take place a year before infinity war which also means he would also most likely be a senior by the time Thanos shows up. Which means that both guardians 3 and homecoming 2 and 3 could both realistically take place before infinity war. So there is the possibility that both deaths could very well be permanent while not likely it is very possible within the timeline the mcu has currently set up