What do you Believe??? (Religion)

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Just now, PeterMP said:

I mean more fundamentally than that.  If you drop some thing from the same height every daym are you going to get the same result?  Or is gravity going to change tomorrow and you might get a different result?

 

Or more practically, have you ever worried about what are the maximum amount force in terms of something like gravity you could live through and what would happen to your residence if some time during the night gravity became that strong?  Do you worry about if your roof would fall on you during your sleep if gravity suddenly increases?

 

(Realistically, for anybody being honest, the answer to these questions is that they assume that things are not going to change.  They live their life as if the universe is not constant.)

 

So the question is becomes why do you believe that?

Ok, I gotcha. Yes, I do believe we will get the same result.

 

Please continue.

[PeterMP]

15 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Ok, I gotcha. Yes, I do believe we will get the same result.

 

Please continue.

 

Well, the question becomes why.  It doesn't make sense to live that way unless you have a reason to believe that's true, right?

 

To my knowledge, only one system said that was the case before it became clear that it is the case and that's Christianity.  Science comes from Christianity (and most specifically St. Augustine).  At the heart of an idea of a personal God is that God will have given us the ability to learn more about him.  God wants us to know him, and he wants us to stay alive.  A universe where there are no natural laws does allow those things to happen.  The fact that science provides useful information was predicted by a belief system that believed in a personal God, and really isn't predicted by any other.

 

The funny thing is then things even get more complex then that because realistically, while we all act on every day life like these things are true, in fact we know they are not (from science).  Quantum mechanics tells us that at the quantum level behavior is not absolute or deterministic, but is probabilistic.

 

At the time of Newton, though, this was not clear and if you asked a physicist if the Universe was deterministic or probabilistic they might have answered that they did know, but the evidence at the time supported a deterministic Universe.

 

Religions with a personal God that wants people to believe in him, have always rejected a deterministic system because those concepts require free will or personal choice, which are not consistent with a deterministic system.

 

Fundamentally, you have a set of beliefs that you live your life by.  You live as if there are natural laws.  Why do you live as if there are natural laws?

Edited April 3, 2018 by PeterMP

[grego]

33 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Many people think both worship the same God

 

isn't 'in christianity (outside of jehovahs witnesses and some small groups, who are different enough doctrinally to not count under the umbrella of christianity) , jesus is god in the flesh' the best argument to counter that?

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

3 hours ago, PeterMP said:

Well, the question becomes why.  It doesn't make sense to live that way unless you have a reason to believe that's true, right?

I guess where I'd get lost in this logic is that somewhere along the way, we have to accept that something amazing and incredible was created in a way that we can't explain. It certainly is hard to wrap my brain around the idea that this amazing universe we live in and the natural laws that govern it could come from nothing. But to take it another step further and try to explain it by saying that it all comes from an all powerful, omni-present being that we can't see and who's origins we also cannot explain, in my mind anyway, creates more questions than answers. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[twa]

7 minutes ago, grego said:

 

isn't 'in christianity (outside of jehovahs witnesses and some small groups, who are different enough doctrinally to not count under the umbrella of christianity) , jesus is god in the flesh' the best argument to counter that?

 

It certainly don't take long to differ ....or start burning heretics , which kinda reduces their numbers

 

 

[zCommander]

17 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

I believe Jesus existed and was a great man whose teachings are worthy of study. But, my question was, how would you convince someone with no belief system in place that there is a God.

 

This is the point I was trying to tell me wife as well. You are telling me that the people who are born in a part of the earth that were not touched by any people of the book and that God is going to put them in hell because they don't believe in Jesus or Mohammad or Moses. How can God who loves his children would do that to people of no faith. You are telling me that God who is compassionate and merciful and forgiving will do that to his creation. We are not talking about handful of people either. In these books who doesn't believe will go to hell, so to speak. That would mean billions of people will be put in hell. This is the part of the religion that doesn't make any sense. 

 

The Egyptian worshiped the Sun because it gave them warmth and made things grow and that meant they had food to eat and survive. They started worshiping the Sun because it would disappear at the end of the day and they didn't know where it went. So when the Sun would come up they assumed it is all the worshiping they are doing and is keeping the Sun alive so to speak. The ancient Egyptians believed that it was important to recognize and worship these gods and goddesses so that life continued smoothly. Again, fear of the unknown. We know better today. Well at least some do.

 

The human brains continues to develop and becomes more creative and smarter. What does a man wants? Power, money and land and the ability to control people and have followers. This is all that is to it. Everyone wants it. People invented ideas and ideologies to acquire it. It still is happening today. I believe that maybe 10-15 generations from today the people will realize that religion is outdated and it will go away. Back in the day you couldn't Google to get your answers. Today you can. It will make the next generations better informed.

 

One can be nice to others and do the right things without being religious. Religion was created to teach the people the way of life and answer some questions about the unknown. As humans we need to have the feeling of belonging to something and to have a cause so that we can say we did something on this planet before we go to either heaven or hell. Religion provides people with a cause and self worth. 

 

I broke away from this sheep herding mentality couple of years ago once I started to do some research. I am glad I did.

 

 

[Renegade7]

3 hours ago, Llevron said:

 

Thats what I always thought. You can almost draw the parallels if you want to. I would feel much better about religion if that were the case, honestly. And im not sure why that is. 

It is the same God.  If other people don't want to admit that, that's their prerogative.  My understanding is the name Jesus appears in the Quran more then Mohammad does (someone's name appearing more doesn't mean they are more or less important, but that was always telling to me on the topic at hand).  

[mistertim]

 

[tshile]

3 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

I guess where I'd get lost in this logic is that somewhere along the way, we have to accept that something amazing an incredible was created in a way that we can't explain. It certainly is hard to wrap my brain around the idea that this amazing universe we live in and the natural laws that govern it could come from nothing. But to take it another step further and try to explain it by saying that it all comes from an all powerful, omni-present being that we can't see and who's origins we also cannot explain, in mind anyway, creates more questions than answers. 

 

This is the boat I’m in. 

 

From nothing makes no sense. Magical being that will give us eternal life surrounded by our loved ones, but only if you behave, sounds like a story the people who made up Santa Claus came up with when adults realized you can’t fly around the world in one night in a bucket pulled by flying deer. 

 

And when I seen what I’ve seen from organized religion (a lot of hatred, most subtle but not all) it’s hard to square it with what I was taught about christianity growing up ( I have the same problem with a particular political party)

Edited April 3, 2018 by tshile

[Llevron]

Yall two @tshile and @Sacks 'n' Stuff basically nailed it for me as well. 

[tshile]

I must say....  I quit going to church after confirmation when I was 13. I’m 33. I’ve gone all over the place in what I believe over the last 20 years. 

 

I currently consider myself agnostic. If you read my posts in political threads that sits quite well with my fence-sitting sissy ness. 

 

But it posts made by @PeterMP and @grego on Christianity (specifically historical events and accuracy) and peter’s recent post about science and natural laws have made me seriously reconsider things. 

 

I appreciate you both for that.  There are others that join in and I appreciate you all too, but those two get my brain churning like no others and In pretty much every conversation on religion

[PeterMP]

3 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

I guess where I'd get lost in this logic is that somewhere along the way, we have to accept that something amazing and incredible was created in a way that we can't explain. It certainly is hard to wrap my brain around the idea that this amazing universe we live in and the natural laws that govern it could come from nothing. But to take it another step further and try to explain it by saying that it all comes from an all powerful, omni-present being that we can't see and who's origins we also cannot explain, in my mind anyway, creates more questions than answers. 

 

You are making a fundamental mistake.  When evaluating whether something is (likely) true what (unanswerable) questions arise from it are irrelevant.

 

This is true from the trivial (people named their kid something unusual.  Why did they name their kid that?  How do they spell it? etc have no bearing on whether that is the kid's name).

 

To the scientific (and less trivial.  Even though continental drift was the best explanation for a bunch of data, it was rejected for a long time because of the questions it raised (e.g. How did the continents move)).

 

The key is what evidence do they explain.

 

You have a belief (the universe is not random and so things will be repeatable).  Science does not help explain why this is true (in fact in the most simplistic formalism of science this is an assumption https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/basic_assumptions and science does not say that you could not wake up tomorrow and gravity couldn't be different.).  Living your life as if something is true when there is no reason to believe it is true is incoherent (and illogical and makes no sense). 

 

There is one explanation that predicted a natural universe where there would be something akin to natural laws.  There is one that predicted the explanation that fits the way you live your life.  Why would you reject the one predictive explanation for how you live your life?

 

(Like I said, I understand that most people that don't already believe in a god don't like this argument, and I've gone round and round with people on this, and they'll always raise another objection.  But the fundamental fact is that you live your life as if something is true (that something akin to natural laws exist) that you have zero reason to believe is true.  That alone should bother you.  And with that, I'll let this go.)

Edited April 3, 2018 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

I implore all of you to check out several episodes of "Through the Wormhole" with Morgan Freeman if you haven't already.  Some of these topics (like a soul, time before the big bang, and God's possible influence on evolution) are all touched on and some have full episodes about it (these ones I've mentioned and more are on Youtube).  

 

In regards to the whole thing starting from scratch versus God being involved in every single thing to get this point, those both sound like extremes where the truth is likely somewhere in the middle.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Renegade7

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Natural laws definitely do exist and I definitely do have reason to believe they exist because I experience them.

 

I think the fundamental flaw is in your argument. You can't expect me to believe in the existence of God by saying "something amazing can't possibly come from nothing" or "there's no reason for this to exist" when, as soon as I ask "Well where did God from then?" your response is that it doesn't matter. How can it be your entire point one second but then become totally irrelevant in the next?

Edited April 3, 2018 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[twa]

God came from Texas of course

[tshile]

That’s where he thought up hell

[Llevron]

This is what I meant when I said science on like page 2. Got damn yall are better than me at this lol. Keep it going and I'm totally gonna watch the wormhole stuff @Renegade7 

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, tshile said:

That’s where he thought up hell

Shots fired : )

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Texas is rank. It's hot as hell here, the Cowboys are on tv every freaking week, and there's always people mailing you bombs trying to blow your ass up.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[zCommander]

Ooooh! Heaven is a place on Earth.

Except TX of course. That is where the Cowboys are.

[Mr. Sinister]

2 minutes ago, zskins said:

Ooooh! Heaven is a place on Earth.

 

That stupid song plays every time I go to the grocery store. I imagine that's what they would play in Hell for the worst of sinners

[grego]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

It is the same God.  If other people don't want to admit that, that's their prerogative.  My understanding is the name Jesus appears in the Quran more then Mohammad does (someone's name appearing more doesn't mean they are more or less important, but that was always telling to me on the topic at hand).  

 

I started with an in depth reply, but lost it while I let my old blind deaf dog out. And I have no internet cuz I just moved and I'm waiting for someone to hook it up. Been almost 2 weeks now...... Grrrrr..... So, I'll try again.... 

 

I struggle with how to determine this. How do we define God? The answer seems to depend on who you ask. 

 

Within the Abrahamic religions, there are three traditions with each one giving a different picture of God. God is defined largely through the Torah, new testament and Quran. 

 

Christianity accepts the OT and, at least to some extent, its portrayal of God. Judaism accepts the OT, but not the NT or Quran. The Quran doesn't accept the Torah and NT 'as is'. It is seen as the perfect final word of God, and the books that came before are imperfect and when they differ, the Quran takes precedence. 

 

Islam,  by definition, worships the God of Abraham Isaac and Ishmael-the same God. So a Muslim will say they are the same God. 

 

Not so within Christianity. There are differences that divide the faiths. The crucifixion isn't recognized in the Quran. The resurrection is essential to the NT - its the reason for the Bibles being and represents the triumph over death. Ultimately, like I posted before, the big difference is that Christianity recognizes Jesus as God - knowable, with whom you can have a relationship. 

 

This is blasphemy in Judaism and Islam. 

 

So I'm not sure how to define God apart from what is claimed as the written, sacred word by each faith. And even then, you get different answers depending on the faith. 

 

I edited - I said Jesus was 'a God' initially but meant to say 'God'.  

 

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by grego

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, grego said:

 

So I'm not sure how to define God apart from what is claimed as the written, sacred word by each faith. And even then, you get different answers depending on the faith. 

 

 

Far as I can tell, when I think of "same God" (and I should've clarified this),  I'm talking about Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, etc, NOT Jesus.  You're right that they all look at Jesus differently, but they all acknowledge that he existed in one way or another (which fascinates me).

 

Edit:  The timeout setting on ES since the last upgrade is ridiculous.  Everytime I write a long post I copy and paste it into a text editor before I try to post it.  Re-signing in doesn't always seem to keep it cached.  That's cool you have a blind, deaf dog btw : )

Edited April 4, 2018 by Renegade7

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Natural laws definitely do exist and I definitely do have reason to believe they exist because I experience them.

 

I think the fundamental flaw is in your argument. You can't expect me to believe in the existence of God by saying "something amazing can't possibly come from nothing" or "there's no reason for this to exist" when, as soon as I ask "Well where did God from then?" your response is that it doesn't matter. How can it be your entire point one second but then become totally irrelevant in the next?

 

First, how can you say they definitely exist?  What evidence do you have that you aren't going to wake up and gravity is going to be very different?

 

Second, I didn't say nothing can't possibly come from nothing.  Based on quantum mechanics, that would actually appear to be false.  I also didn't say there's no reason for this to exist.  Things don't need a reason to exist.

 

I said, to my knowledge, there is one system that ahead of time predicted the universe is as most people live their lives, and that system predicted what we know through science today to be of the universe today.

 

Sitting here today, you've rejected a belief system that correctly predicted how things would work and have not put forward an even clearly equal idea.

 

I don't know how God came into existence, but that's how ideas work.  You work at the level you can.  When Darwin proposed natural selection, he had no idea of how it worked (i.e. had no concept of DNA, mutations, and things like that required for natural selection to happen), but that wasn't really evidence that he was wrong.  As I already stated, when continental drift was first proposed, they had no idea how it happened, but that wasn't actually good evidence it wasn't true.  Today, we still have no real understanding of how quantum mechanics work.  We have a mathematical framework that (probabilistically) predicts observable events, but the fact that we don't know how it works isn't evidence that it isn't true.  Nobody (that is taken seriously) claims the fact that we don't know how quantum mechanics works means that it isn't correct.

 

We have a history of our universe and our understanding of it.  To my knowledge, one idea predicted where we are a head of time.  Yes, that idea raises other questions that are currently (and potentially forever) unanswerable, but that isn't evidence that it is incorrect.

 

(I know that I said, I wouldn't reply, but you said things that I didn't say.)

Edited April 4, 2018 by PeterMP

[twa]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

That’s where he thought up hell

 

The summers probably inspired it.

You want to to burn?....here I'll add some steam for good measure.