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Let's All Get Behind Alex Smith! Or Not!! (M.E.T.) NO kirk talk---that goes in ATN forum

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Just now, Wildbunny said:

Narrative during Training Camp and OTAs was that Smith enabled Jay Gruden to open up the whole playbook...

 

 

Come on now, coaches need to have flexibility to work the system around their players.  Alex has the ability to open up the playbook, but that doesn't mean you don't add nuance and scheme to highlight their strengths.  

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4 minutes ago, Burgold said:

No one should be content with it. Everyone should be wanting improvement. However, it's also important to build upon the good stuff, acknowledge the good stuff, and, as fans, cheer and revel in the good stuff.

 

After all, we have really limited power to change the bad stuff. More, if you do the Chicken Little thing and do nothing but endlessly complain and grouse and kvetch, people tune you out and tune out the reasonable points you may point out.

 

I mean it's fine to say that the we need more chicken wire around the coup, but it's a little wonky to shout WOLF when there's none in sight.

 

This is the best post I've read...

 

It's OK to be excited about the team's start, hope for more from the QB and passing game, but not be overly down about it. I will admit that I was expecting a more seamless transition with Smith.

 

But I also acknowledge that Cousins at this point of his first year as the starter had a QB rating of 84.7, was averaging 248 yards per game, and had a 9:8 TD:INT ratio. And that was his second year in the offense, even though it was his first as a starter at all (to be fair). Smith is averaging fewer yards for sure (220ish), but he's also doing much better in terms of TD:INT (8:2) which has resulted in a higher rating (91.3). The point? It can improve with more reps and more time in the system...just like it did for Cousins. 

 

We are winning. We have forged an identity. Now, we just need the passing game to make a few more plays per game to really round out into a team that is capable of beating anyone. 

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1 hour ago, bobandweave said:

 

 

Your missing the point. Sure AP is helping tremendously but this team expected Darrius Guice to be the guy rushing the ball so they backed into AP. We all knew the stats going into the season. Last in the league in rushing the ball, last in the league at stopping the opposing RB. The areas of the team needed addressed and they were. Even with them being addressed I fundamentally disagree that's all they had to do to be where they are now. 

 

The club moved on from a turnover prone QB from last season to one who is not. This effect alone I was saying last December would win them more games. Kirk Cousins week after week does some bone headed wtf are you thinking plays. Those didn't stop when he left here, I already posted the video of his pick 6 last night but the weeks before

 

 

Yet every game he makes beautiful plays that make you look and say "WOW". The loss of the bad plays is helping this team more than you are letting on. That's my point. What you saw Kirk do here he is doing in Minnesota. We got better by losing that. 

 

 

 

 

I'll say the same thing on behalf of Kirk that I said on behalf of Alex after the Colts game.  We can't live and die with every game.  Qbs have good games, they have bad games.  It's about the overall soup.  2 weeks ago writers were saying Kirk was elite and emerging as one of the best QBs in the league.  Now, they lose on national TV (not as bad as we did to the Saints) and Kirk is trash.  16 TDS to 4 INTs is pretty good.   On pace for 32, 8 INTs.  that's actually insane.   But for argument's sake I'll act like its not very good.  Still...

 

Kirk and Alex weren't the two sole choices in the off season.  I among others spelled out other choices.  Not that i want to relive any of that discussion.

 

You can actually move the ball and avoid throwing a lot of picks.  It's a false choice where you got to pick one or the other. 

 

My beef with how this is playing out is a bit ironic considering how I laid out my opinion before this season.  My issue with the Alex trade was though I thought he was a good QB.  I didn't think the roster was good enough to go to the big dance with a good QB.  In other words, and I even said so in the off season, Alex will do his part and be a playoff QB but the rest of the roster wouldn't keep pace.  And I was wrong on both counts.  The roster is better than I thought it was.  Peterson's play exceeded what i even expected from Guice.  And I thought the D line would be good but was unsure about them being great.  They have been great. 

 

So my theory actually has turned upside down.  The roster is really good and if anything its Alex holding them back IMO.  That drives me a little crazy.  And i can't be sold that what we've seen is good QB play just because they've been winning.   That seems odd.  A minor analogy (and agree its not totally apple to apples since a QB is more important) would be like saying hey Greg Stroman played good CB against Carolina last week -- why?  They won. Case closed.   They are 2-0 with Greg Stroman at CB, enough said, stop carping about those big plays he has given up, etc.   We can put Stroman against Julio Jones because we survived him playing Beckham. 

 

But my larger point is you seem at odds with Jay-Doug's view about Alex and how its gone thus far.  If so, just wonder what you are catching that they are missing?   Unless, you don't believe its so as to their thoughts?

 

If you want to argue the 2017 version of Alex is on the way.  I get that.  But the 24th ranked QB in the league, QBR wise, hasn't played the same as the 8th ranked QB in 2017.   If people want to offer explanations -- he needs to adjust, receivers, whatever, OK.  But people selling that its been good and he's playing winning football -- don't get that.  And I've heard enough from beat guys covering the team that I am convinced that Jay and the HC aren't swooning about Alex behind the scenes/

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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Just watched the Jay press conference.  He was deluged with questions about the passing game.  He more or less said they will figure it out, the offense isn't in synch, big plays are being left on the field.  He said the miss to Richardson was an errant throw by Alex where he didn't fully step into the throw, maybe because of pressure.

 

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Hmm...

 

Watching the game I thought the run game was below average until the AP 64 yarder.

 

Exciting, you can see the ceiling isn’t even close to being reached with this team. I also saw concepts and pre snap stuff Alex is comfortable with, telling me work is being done by Gruden to adapt. So undervalued in sports and one I questioned Gruden in being able to do. If Gruden and Alex can continue to work towards a happy medium the offense could be extremely diverse.

 

Winning along the way will hopefully assist both in doing what’s best for team without extreme amount of pressure, due to a poor record.

 

@Skinsinparadise

 

The pre snap motions and misdirections seem to be getting more crisp and used more. Thoughts?? 

 

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2 hours ago, Taylor 36 said:

Did you see that he threw the ball exactly where it needed to be but Diggs stopped his route?  Have you not seen that Smith has gotten lucky with several dropped interceptions and recoveries of his 7 fumbles this season?  When the luck wears out, which it will, Smith won't be far behind Cousins in the TO column, but Cousins will at least play to win while Smith will play not to lose and leave tons of points on the field. 

 

If we make it to the playoffs, it will be 100% because of our Defense and running game, along with the unexpectantly weak schedule and division this year.  We will get embarrassed in the playoffs.  And, we get to pay him for another two years to boot!  Lucky us.  I guarantee you the next two seasons we will not be as lucky with health, weak division play, weak schedule, and opponents missing TO opportunities.  By then, some of you will come around and realize how bad Alex Smith is and the trade was to get him.  I'm sure some of you will still be touting that he needs more time, even after year 16.

The losers mentality is STRONG in this post ✋?

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41 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

We are winning. We have forged an identity. Now, we just need the passing game to make a few more plays per game to really round out into a team that is capable of beating anyone. 

 

Agree.  But I think what am missing is who is saying otherwise?  I don't think we got a lot of people saying the team stinks and the wins aren't appreciated.  If people are concerned about the passing game, that is what it is.  Jay himself echoed the same comments, we are winning that's good and we need to get the passing game figured out.  

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1 minute ago, -JB- said:

The losers mentality is STRONG in this post ✋?

If that's what you need to tell yourself to feel better, go for it.  When reality sets in, you know where to turn. :) 

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Just now, Taylor 36 said:

If that's what you need to tell yourself to feel better, go for it.  When reality sets in, you know where to turn. :) 

Kirk a Cousins has always had a much higher turnover rate than Alex Smith.  That is fact.  You trying to make it seem like suddenly Alex Smith is going to turn into a bumbling TO machine like Cousins is not realistic and funny to me ?

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6 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

@Skinsinparadise

 

The pre snap motions and misdirections seem to be getting more crisp and used more. Thoughts?? 

 

 

I saw some of it at times especially early.  I need to re-watch the game though and slow it down.  I loved the read option-QB keeper where Alex just ran for 10 yards.  IMO, you need more of that.  I like to harken back when we acquire a player as to what scared me about said player. For Alex it was him poising as a run threat where you have to think about that when it came to defending him.  I don't have that vibe this season.

 

It seems like the RPO, misdirection stuff was at its height in the Arizona game.  but I haven't really charted it so i could be wrong.

 

I am still in the camp that this could get better and I think it will.  And I actually like to see Jay dissatisfied with the passing game -- clear to see that in the press conference just now and as I've said here beat guys have said Jay is very frustrated behind the scenes.

 

Frustration is usually needed to make improvements.   I said when they got killed by the Saints maybe there is an upside to it -- getting shaken up and doing things differently.   I think and hope the frustration behind the scenes will bear some results. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise

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3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  But I think what am missing is who is saying otherwise?  I don't think we got a lot of people saying the team stinks and the wins aren't appreciated.  If people are concerned about the passing game, that is what it is.  Jay himself echoed the same comments, we are winning that's good and we need to get the passing game figured out.  

 

Maybe this entire thread is a bunch of loud agreement then...

 

You might be right, but I also don't see many arguments that the passing game is perfect as-is. It seems like even the "Hooray we're 5-2" crowd is aware that we are leaving things on the field through the air. 

 

So, if everyone is happy we've won 5 of our first 7 games AND that we could improve through the air, the only thing that might be up for debate is whether people believe we will see improvement with this QB. I think we'll see some. 

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You know some of us never thought Alex Smith would be Rodgers ok?  All some of us want is for him to hit the simple passes.  You can't have a QB miss a wide open Sprinkle in the endzone.  You can't have him throw high often and get Thompson or AP or Reed killed.  Gruden said it, there are a lot of big plays left on the field and that is one Smith.  He needs to figure it out because there is going to be a time where he has to win a game.  Yes, all our wins we never trailed.  Think about that.  That can't last.

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Just now, -JB- said:

Kirk a Cousins has always had a much higher turnover rate than Alex Smith.  That is fact.  You trying to make it seem like suddenly Alex Smith is going to turn into a bumbling TO machine like Cousins is not realistic and funny to me ?

If Alex loses half of the fumbles he's had this season that we've been lucky to get back, and had half of the INT made that have been dropped or were there for the taking by opposing teams, he would have more turn overs than Kirk currently has this season.  Now, I'm sure KC has had a few near INT's, too.  Most QB's do, but just because we have been fortunate (lucky) so far this season doesn't take away the fact that Alex has put us into TO situations this season.  He's not light's out better than Kirk, as many want to make him out to be.  He has just been luckier than Kirk this season in that regard.  That was my point.  As fans of the Redskins, we should all know that we can't count on luck.

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4 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

If Alex loses half of the fumbles he's had this season that we've been lucky to get back, and had half of the INT made that have been dropped or were there for the taking by opposing teams, he would have more turn overs than Kirk currently has this season.  Now, I'm sure KC has had a few near INT's, too.  Most QB's do, but just because we have been fortunate (lucky) so far this season doesn't take away the fact that Alex has put us into TO situations this season.  He's not light's out better than Kirk, as many want to make him out to be.  He has just been luckier than Kirk this season in that regard.  That was my point.  As fans of the Redskins, we should all know that we can't count on luck.

There’s a difference between down the field 50/50 balls almost picked off and defended Vs egregious interceptions.  Kirk Cousins will absolutely kill you when it counts with remarkably stupid turnovers.  We have seen the trend for years now.  Then it happens again last night in the big showdown vs Saints.  I’m not a Kirk hater and I’m not making **** up.  He is who he is.  And he also fumbles at a terrible clip. 

Edited by -JB-

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1 hour ago, Burgold said:

No one should be content with it. Everyone should be wanting improvement. However, it's also important to build upon the good stuff, acknowledge the good stuff, and, as fans, cheer and revel in the good stuff.

 

After all, we have really limited power to change the bad stuff. More, if you do the Chicken Little thing and do nothing but endlessly complain and grouse and kvetch, people tune you out and tune out the reasonable points you may point out.

 

I mean it's fine to say that the we need more chicken wire around the coup, but it's a little wonky to shout WOLF when there's none in sight.

 

Who isn’t acknowledging the good stuff?  

 

The good stuff without a doubt is AP, the Oline and defense.  I haven’t seen anything but praise for them.

 

And for the record, it works both ways in regards to tuning out.  When your posts are constantly coated in sugar, it’s very difficult to take serious.  You, yourself said that you are purposely doing it for some reason or another that I can’t recall.  Which is odd to me because like you said, there isn’t much we can do about it as fans.  Nothing said here, good bad or indifferent is going to change the outcome on the field.  

 

As for shouting wolf when there is none, you may not see the wolf but clearly there is a large section of the fanbase, coaches, folks that cover the team, etc. that see the wolf.

Edited by BatteredFanSyndrome

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37 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But people selling that its been good and he's playing winning football -- don't get that. 

He's not playing loosing football..is he. Until he is RESPONSIBLE for loosing a game that was won or in the final drive  have the TO  in the 4th Qtr, I will say we got what we wanted in a QB

Edited by The Hangman- C_Hanburger

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16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I saw some of it at times especially early.  I need to re-watch the game though and slow it down.  I loved the read option-QB keeper where Alex just ran for 10 yards.  IMO, you need more of that.  I like to harken back when we acquire a player as to what scared me about said player. For Alex it was him poising as a run threat where you have to think about that when it came to defending him.  I don't have that vibe this season.

 

It seems like the RPO, misdirection stuff was at its height in the Arizona game.  but I haven't really charted it so i could be wrong.

 

I am still in the camp that this could get better and I think it will.  And I actually like to see Jay dissatisfied with the passing game -- clear to see that in the press conference just now and as I've said here beat guys have said Jay is very frustrated behind the scenes.

 

Frustration is usually needed to make improvements.   I said when they got killed by the Saints maybe there is an upside to it -- getting shaken up and doing things differently.   I think and hope the frustration behind the scenes will bear some results. 

 

Nah, I’m not talking about Alex running, not that they can’t do that more. Alex didn’t really run much designed run stuff in KC though. Don’t think anyone wants to put him harms way too often, Reid included. 

 

Mo Harris motioning to backfield a few times, fake jet sweeps/or handoff to WRs, RPOs, option all were called during the game. This is Jay attempting to adapt scheme to Alex, in my view. 

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4 minutes ago, -JB- said:

There’s a difference between down the field 50/50 balls almost picked off and defended Vs egregious interceptions.  Kirk Cousins will absolutely kill you when it counts with remarkably stupid turnovers.  We have seen the trend for years now.  Then it happens again last night in the big showdown vs Saints.  I’m not a Kirk hater and I’m not making **** up.  He is who he is.  And he also fumbles at a terrible clip. 

I'm not going to get into how the INT last night wasn't Kirk's fault, my point still stands that even playing it safe (scared), Alex has not protected the ball as well as many try to make it out to be.  He's just been lucky.  Fifty/fifty balls don't even factor in, because he hardly ever lets it rip, and when he does, his accuracy has been so bad that it is basically a zero percent chance that one of our players can catch it the majority of the time.  Like I said before, if he loses half the fumbles he's had, and even had a couple of the close INT's actually be caught, what would the people acting like Alex is fine be hanging their hats on?  With those turn overs, do you really believe we would have a chance to win after that?  At least with Kirk, he would push the ball down field to try and get back in the game.  Alex has shown us that once we are behind, he has no interest in opening up the field to get us back in the game.  He's content dinking and dunking and letting the clock run out, unless we want it to run out to force our opponent to burn their time outs, and then he will run out of bounds.  Totally inexcusable for a 14 year vet.

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26 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

Maybe this entire thread is a bunch of loud agreement then...

 

You might be right, but I also don't see many arguments that the passing game is perfect as-is. It seems like even the "Hooray we're 5-2" crowd is aware that we are leaving things on the field through the air. 

 

So, if everyone is happy we've won 5 of our first 7 games AND that we could improve through the air, the only thing that might be up for debate is whether people believe we will see improvement with this QB. I think we'll see some. 

 

Yeah by that definition it is a loud agreement. However, I don't think the thesis of an Alex Smith thread or for that matter a thread on any player has anything to do with enjoying a win. 

 

I think you have 4 arguments more or less being made on the thread.

 

A.  This is who Alex is -- he's just not that good.  And we are stuck with this miserable to mediocre play

B.  It might not be pretty and sexy and yeah Alex could be better but he's a key reason why we've been winning.  

C.  Alex is really good.  He hasn't been good yet but give him time and it will come.

D.  We thought Alex was good, not so sure now because he hasn't played well, some skepticism has crept in but let the movie play out some more

 

With a sprinkle of Kirk in the mix, some from the people who liked him, some from the people who didn't like Kirk.

 

None of it as far as i am concerned delves into satisfaction about winning or losing.  We always have conversations like this (as just about every board does) when the team isn't great but good.  I recall the conversations about Brunell and it was similar to what we have here and yeah they were winning at the time.   It's common human behavior IMO to look at good and focus on what you like and focus also on what you don't like.  Sounds like that's what Jay and the FO are doing behind the scenes so nothing unhealthy about that.

 

Personally, i am in category D.   But when people argue point B -- I'll take that point on at times because it goes at odds with what I see.   And I've had some people who see it as point A take on my position.  It's all cool with me either way. 

 

And for those that are trying to sell that they are winning in large part because of Alex.  That's a different point than just enjoying a win.   Clearly the idea that you have to give credit to Alex for the team winning and enjoying a win aren't two of the same things.  If it were it should shoot down EVERY criticism on the board.  Those hitting Doctson (I am not one of the Doctson critics) just can't enjoy a win or whomever else  On and on.  ?  

 

I don't see how this topic is different aside from there is an underpinning to the Alex deal (Kirk-FO) that adds emotion to the discussion.  And I've seen it on both sides of the spectrum.  But if we get past that, its same old same old discussion.  I recall the Beck-Rex debates.  JC.  Kirk versus RG3. Ramsey-Brunell.  McNabb.  it's all hot button stuff -- nothing different here IMO. 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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3 minutes ago, Taylor 36 said:

I'm not going to get into how the INT last night wasn't Kirk's fault, my point still stands that even playing it safe (scared), Alex has not protected the ball as well as many try to make it out to be.  He's just been lucky.  Fifty/fifty balls don't even factor in, because he hardly ever lets it rip, and when he does, his accuracy has been so bad that it is basically a zero percent chance that one of our players can catch it the majority of the time.  Like I said before, if he loses half the fumbles he's had, and even had a couple of the close INT's actually be caught, what would the people acting like Alex is fine be hanging their hats on?  With those turn overs, do you really believe we would have a chance to win after that?  At least with Kirk, he would push the ball down field to try and get back in the game.  Alex has shown us that once we are behind, he has no interest in opening up the field to get us back in the game.  He's content dinking and dunking and letting the clock run out, unless we want it to run out to force our opponent to burn their time outs, and then he will run out of bounds.  Totally inexcusable for a 14 year vet.

If ifs were a fifth, we’d all be drunk!

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Just for fun - Gruden (who is happy to call cats out) said that alot of the issues on offense are not just the QB. Choice routes he highlighted atleast once. Continuity with the WRs he said. Route running. 

 

A bunch of stuff. Not just the Qb who he called out as well. 

 

So the passing game is not solely his responsibility. Which is goes when it's bad or good. 

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21 minutes ago, wit33 said:

 

Nah, I’m not talking about Alex running, not that they can’t do that more. Alex didn’t really run much designed run stuff in KC though. Don’t think anyone wants to put him harms way too often, Reid included. 

 

Mo Harris motioning to backfield a few times, fake jet sweeps/or handoff to WRs, RPOs, option all were called during the game. This is Jay attempting to adapt scheme to Alex, in my view. 

 

That's why he ran for 355 yards last year, 2 years before that for almost 500 yards -- Reid doesn't like to see the dude running?  Lets agree to disagree.  The RO-RPO has a QB run component inherent in the play as an option so yeah there was design in those plays.  The dude didn't just scramble on the fly for 500 yards.  

 

The fake jet sweeps have been a part of every game as far as I noticed -- heck they even got the TE involved in it last week.   I don't think I've seen yet Reed in the backfield as KC would do at times with Kelce where he'd be lined up like a RB in the I.

 

But as a defense of Alex, I think you need MORE of this.  And yes I do think you have to showcase his wheels.  

25 minutes ago, The Hangman- C_Hanburger said:

He's not playing loosing football..is he. Until he is RESPONSIBLE for loosing a game that was won or in the final drive  have the TO  in the 4th Qtr, I will say we got what we wanted in a QB

 

If that's what they wanted in a QB what's with the Jay criticism and the fact that beat guys said they are very frustrated behind the scenes?  

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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8 minutes ago, Llevron said:

Just for fun - Gruden (who is happy to call cats out) said that alot of the issues on offense are not just the QB. Choice routes he highlighted atleast once. Continuity with the WRs he said. Route running. 

 

A bunch of stuff. Not just the Qb who he called out as well. 

 

So the passing game is not solely his responsibility. Which is goes when it's bad or good. 

I wouldn’t say that he’s ever happy to call folks out.  Like a lot of coaches, you really have to dig in to find anything.  Whenever he’s asked about specific players, he almost always goes to “well, everybody...”. He actually blamed the wind once for Kirk’s poor accuracy.

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22 minutes ago, -JB- said:

If ifs were a fifth, we’d all be drunk!

Again, those if's will become when-he-did's, and then what are people going to hang their hats on?

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