WP: Kirk Cousins breaks his silence after Redskins trade for Alex Smith

[Thinking Skins]

 

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But my point isn't to hit Brunell, he is just another example of a veteran they traded for -- they gave up draft capital for a rental.  He didn't last long.  Historically most of the draft picks we've given up whether it was many picks traded under Vinny and ditto the many picks traded under Bruce over the long run have proven to be short sighted and failures. 

 

And that this deal is different (not saying you are saying this).  Is almost like a mantra.  I recall the same stuff being said about the McNabb deal.  Yeah they have traded way many picks -- but this one and this time its sharp!   Stop with all of that stuff about these trades haven't worked in this past -- let me explain the difference with this one!  And If you don't agree, then you are just a hater and missing on the obvious explanation here. 

 

And again I like Alex Smith more than most.  But the idea of explain the context of the new version of why they decided to give up picks -- that's not a new rodeo here -- that's the typical rodeo.  If they wrote a book about these trades, I'd even title it "This Time It Was Different -- Now Let Me Explain..."

 

I totally agree with this. I hate losing Fuller, but I hate more the philosophy of trading draft picks. In 2008, I was preaching that Vinny had changed because it was the first time we traded and got more picks, to the point where we had 10 picks in a draft. I got to actually enjoy the months of March and April. But the subsequent years (and the Jason Taylor trade) showed that it was a mirage. I wasn't a fan of the McNabb trade but (kinda like I'm doing now) I tried to talk my way into believing something similar to what Snyder said - if you think McNabb is the missing piece, don't let a single draft pick be the reason you don't get him. It'd be different if we were like Cleveland and had like 13 picks to start with, but we're starting with a basic set and this just reaps of the days of Vinny.

 

One of the metrics of a team is the money / talent that they put into the scouting departments. But since that stuff is either subjective (who is the best grade of talent) or hard to actually get (whose staff has the most scouts) or a combination of the two, a simpler question becomes a question of which teams believe in the draft simply by how much do they invest in the draft. That's still a caveat because players at some schools (like HBCUs where Doug Williams has more knowledge than probably any scout in the NFL) have a lot of talent that often goes undrafted but perform well, so UDFAs should be considered in this. But I liked what I was seeing from the team in this department. I'm not crying over a single pick, but I am losing faith that we care as much about the draft as I would like or as much as I have thought.

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 

I totally agree with this. I hate losing Fuller, but I hate more the philosophy of trading draft picks. In 2008, I was preaching that Vinny had changed because it was the first time we traded and got more picks, to the point where we had 10 picks in a draft. I got to actually enjoy the months of March and April. But the subsequent years (and the Jason Taylor trade) showed that it was a mirage. I wasn't a fan of the McNabb trade but (kinda like I'm doing now) I tried to talk my way into believing something similar to what Snyder said - if you think McNabb is the missing piece, don't let a single draft pick be the reason you don't get him. It'd be different if we were like Cleveland and had like 13 picks to start with, but we're starting with a basic set and this just reaps of the days of Vinny.

 

 

My key is similar I hate losing draft capital.  It's my only beef with the Alex Smith deal but its a key beef.  If they signed Alex in FA it would be night and day for me.  But some people shrugging off the compensation of the trade and just zoning in on the target we acquired -- IMO is vintage Redskins during Dan's tenure.  The euphoria of the new toy.  Who cares what they gave up for the toy.  Just enjoy the toy, isn't it shiny and cool?  

 

An early 3rd rounder could easily be a Morgan Moses, Cooley, Jordan Reed type of player.  Losing Kendall Fuller IMO is akin to losing a first rounder -- he's a plug and play, young emerging player. 

 

I can't compare for example McCarron, Keenum versus Alex Smith in a vacuum. That doesn't make sense to me.  Yes I'd take Alex Smith if I looked at it that way.  But the reality is its Keenum or whomever and Fuller and a high third round pick versus Alex Smith.

 

And that's with me ignoring the whole Kirk negotiation.  And that's without delving into compensation that they might have been able to get for Kirk that they are unlikely to get now because of the timing of the trade.  Previously, you might have been able to transition tag Kirk, and trade him.  It was plausible because the idea that the Redskins would keep Kirk and that was a viable option hence leverage.  That's out the window now because of the timing of this.

 

So to me the deal smacks of desperation.  You can't wait for things to unfold.  You likely squander getting draft compensation for Kirk, too because of the haste.  IMO this could have likely been:

 

A. You have a young QB or a FA with all your picks and likely an additional pick or two from trading Kirk

Versus

B. You have an older QB.  Lost a high pick.  Lost a young key building block player.  And you likely get nothing or close to it for Kirk.

 

And we got some people (not you) saying this was slam dunk best case scenario.  They made the best out of a bad situation. And anyone complaining is just a hater.  IMO to each their own but that to me is absurd.  And this isn't me raining on Bruce and the FO just to rain on them.  We vetted all of these scenarios out weeks back before it happened.  I said then IMO trading for a veteran was worse case scenario for me. 

 

Edit:

I had to stop reading this article because it was too depressing to me.  But here is an opinion article doing an analysis of the trade using numbers.  Trade capital.  Alex versus Kirk, the whole nine yards.

https://www.hogshaven.com/2018/2/10/16993120/skins-stats-a-statistical-review-of-the-alex-smith-trade

 

 

1.  
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   Ben Standig‏Verified account @BenStandig 16h16 hours ago

   More

   Ben Standig Retweeted Jim Owczarski

   Well lookie here. Specifically mentioned McCarron as one of the options for Redskins if they waited when folks said they had no choice but to get Alex Smith. Not better or worse, but options.

  

[tmandoug1]

If Kirk picks Cleveland its about the money.......if he picks Denver its about winning. Time will tell.

[Voice_of_Reason]

On 2/14/2018 at 7:55 AM, Skinsinparadise said:

I disagree that Jay will play a part in things will end badly for Alex. 

Just getting back to this quote from earlier this week.  

 

You are absolutely one of the biggest Jay supporters on the board.  And I'm definitely one of his biggest critics. 

 

That said, you're also one of my favorite posters to "spar" with, and I very much respect your opinions.  (even if they are wrong.  )

 

I really really hope I'm wrong about Jay. I want to see him succeed, because I really don't want to blow it all up again and start from scratch.  I don't see it, but I desperately want to be wrong.  I'd prefer to be wrong and win with Jay than right and have to start over.

 

As for if Jay is part of Alex's demise, I think he will be part of it.  I think Reid is a much better, more creative offensive minded coach than Jay, and I doubt Jay will be able to, or even want to, replicate the type of offense Reid was able to create to make   Alex perform at a high level. Jay has never really showed the ability to have a complementary run/pass game, nor have any of his teams really run the ball well, or been committed to it.  I don't see Jay adapting to Alex as well as Reid or Harbaugh did.  I could be wrong. We'll see.  

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Just getting back to this quote from earlier this week.  

 

You are absolutely one of the biggest Jay supporters on the board.  And I'm definitely one of his biggest critics. 

 

That said, you're also one of my favorite posters to "spar" with, and I very much respect your opinions.  (even if they are wrong.  )

 

I really really hope I'm wrong about Jay. I want to see him succeed, because I really don't want to blow it all up again and start from scratch.  I don't see it, but I desperately want to be wrong.  I'd prefer to be wrong and win with Jay than right and have to start over.

 

As for if Jay is part of Alex's demise, I think he will be part of it.  I think Reid is a much better, more creative offensive minded coach than Jay, and I doubt Jay will be able to, or even want to, replicate the type of offense Reid was able to create to make   Alex perform at a high level. Jay has never really showed the ability to have a complementary run/pass game, nor have any of his teams really run the ball well, or been committed to it.  I don't see Jay adapting to Alex as well as Reid or Harbaugh did.  I could be wrong. We'll see.  

 

Thanks, you are a good spar debate person yourself.  I was initially a Jay critic though not as intense as others were in year one, I recall saying back then he's a B level coach who my fear is that he will be outdone by the  A level types in the league.

 

I said then a first year coach deserves an opportunity to show improvement and I think he did. It's not that I became infatuated with him as the be all and end all coach -- but I thought he was a good coach and more importantly a good fit for this specific organization.

 

The kicker for me was being around Redskins Park one day in 2016.  I watched Jay run practice.  I saw him interact with others in the team's cafeteria including with my kids.  I had Scot talk for about 2 hours on subject versus subject with me that day and unsolicited he told me Jay is a really good talent evaluator. He didn't complement anyone else in that building on that front but him.  And he told me he is a really good person.  I can tell the other staff members really liked him, too.   And I don't mean that in a Zorn way -- but in a way that they liked and trusted him.  I think those qualities are critical to survive in that building.

 

Yeah like anyone of us he's going to have his stubborn streak that might be proven to be incorrect.  In Jay's case I think its Robert Kelley. You'll see me in the draft thread even whine about it.   In Scot's case it was Matt Jones.  It doesn't make them incompetent IMO it just means like anyone they have favorites and they don't always pan out. 

 

But your fear about Jay mixing with personnel -- I am a 180 on with you on that point.  He is the son of a scout.  I think the dude knows personnel.  The top GMs in the league get 50% of their stuff wrong so I am not holding Jay to a higher standard than everyone else.  Of course he's going to be wrong on some stuff.  But the only thing that doesn't have me in a panic about the FO is Jay's involvement.  I trust Jay studying tape not Bruce.

 

It's not that I disagree with your take about him being not enough of a detail guy.  I got some beefs with him as a coach that go even beyond that.  But I am not of the belief that there is a flawless coach out there.  They are going to have their weaknesses.  I love Gibbs but I thought in his 2nd stint he was a lost puppy with clock management -- he was too conservative, etc.  But Gibbs' asset was he was a great leader of men.

 

With Jay, my thought is he has a great mind for a passing offense.  And he has the right personality.  As Ryan Clark likes to say for head coaches the key is what kind of person are they and how do they interact with people.  Sort of like Joe Torre with the Yankees.  Torre didn't have the best rep as a manager before coming to the Yankees.  But he was the right fit for the Yankees because he had the perfect personality to deal with the chaos and a mercurial owner.

 

My thought watching Jay eat lunch with his son and just watching him interact around the building -- is the dude's persona is perfect in dealing with this team specifically.  I'll never forget Vinny saying on the radio years ago that they didn't hire Gregg Williams at the time because he and Dan watched the playoffs with Gregg and they all didn't bond as pals.  Weird but hey that's the environment we got.  It is what it is.  I can easily envision Jay watching the playoffs with Dan and bonding -- Jay has that type of personality -- easy going and likable.  I can see him walking into that building during crazy days and shrugging it off without losing a step and going off stride.  I can see him get what he wants from the FO without Bruce feeling threatened by him. 

 

A personal favorite for me is Bruce Arians.  I like him a lot as a head coach.  Do I think he's a better head coach than Jay?  My gut is maybe so.  Do I think he'd be a better head coach here?  Nope.  I think Arians and Bruce and or Dan would rub each other the wrong way.  The wrong temperment for this environment.  Jay to me is borderline perfect personality wise for Redskins Park IMO. 

 

 

 

 

[carex]

Cousins camp would file grievance for violating spirit of the rules.  Spirit of the rules arguments are bull****

 

and anyway I think the Skins actually set precedent on this.  Sean Gilbert sits out 97 on the franchise tag, they retag him after that year and trade him for two first rounders.  With him sitting out the year it had to be obvious the purpose of the tag was just to recoup something

[Est.1974]

1 hour ago, carex said:

Cousins camp would file grievance for violating spirit of the rules.  Spirit of the rules arguments are bull****

 

and anyway I think the Skins actually set precedent on this.  Sean Gilbert sits out 97 on the franchise tag, they retag him after that year and trade him for two first rounders.  With him sitting out the year it had to be obvious the purpose of the tag was just to recoup something

 

Tend to agree. There is very little spirit in the tag at all.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

I get that folks around here don't want to here about the 'spirit' of anything after the cap penalty.  But it's true that the franchise tag wasn't created as a means for teams to try and scrape every last bit they can out of a player and ship him to somewhere he doesn't want to go.

 

It's not even Cousins camp that would be filing the grievance.  It would be filed on behalf of the NFLPA.  They probably won't even win if they do.  But it would certainly make the situation murky and could potentially end up costing both parties time which will equate to money.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

I'd be thrilled if they can get compensation for Kirk.  However, its so easy for Kirk's agent to hold the team's whole FA season hostage by simply not signing the tag.  So I don't see how this plays out where the team wins?

 

To me the interesting side note is how Bruce is looking in all of this.  The idea that Bruce is being petty which isn't just a PFF thought though I don't think helps his rep which is IMO reaching Cerrato territory.  It's getting that deep from what I observed as the dude being mocked by local and national media.  Like or not like Bruce, I confess Bruce's reputation wasn't one of being a boob initially.  It started moving in that direction with the winning off the field comments but not in a big way.   

 

But starting in 2017, he's been marching full steam ahead to be considered depending on the source -- a buffoon, incompetent or mean spirited power hungry.  Everyone isn't on that train.  But a lot of the national and local media are on the edge of that opinion.  It does remind me some of Vinny in 2009 where his rep really went in a full steam nose dive that year.

 

So the Kirk contract is an interesting side note to me as to Bruce's rep.  And I am rooting for him to get lucky here.  I just don't see how it happens.  But I wouldn't mind for it ending where the FO looks foolish by looking petty here.  Darkest before the dawn -- hitting bottom has an upside.  So I won't complain if Bruce has something over the top in mind to cap this all off.  In a warped way, McCartney having one more laugh at Bruce's expense has some poetry to it. 

[HigSkin]

Really interesting listen on NFL live today talking about the 7 teams speculated interest in Cousins and went around the league to their respective local reporters.  They obviously talked a lot about Cousins "leverage" but really only came up with one team that would/will make a serious run at him.

 

1)  Bills - local reporter said Bills will not be suitors for Cousins and would rather focus on the draft to find their long term starter

2)  Browns - local reporter said Browns would consider any QB option that would include Cousins but would first consider the draft since they know they would have to overpay for him.  The panel didn't think it was the right fit for KC given their losing record

3)  Jags - local reporter said Jags could dump Bortles ($19mil) and have cap capability but the panel thinks they stick with Bortles.

4)  Vikings - local reporter said they could do a 5 yr $30 mil but panel doesn't think they go that route in putting too much money in a QB when they've won with multiple QB's

5)  Cardinals - local reporter said they'd need to rid $16 mil in cap but might still not be enough and would end up gutting the team

6)  Denver - local reporter said they are good "recruiters" as witnessed by Peyton deal but would need to create a lot of cap space.  They may not be able to show an enticing roster after doing that plan

7)  Jets - local reporter said they have the cap space, are QB needy and the right offensive familiarity (Bates) plus the ability to front load any contract to beat out other offers

[Est.1974]

36 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

However, its so easy for Kirk's agent to hold the team's whole FA season hostage by simply not signing the tag.

 

I agree it's a long shot we get any compensation for Kirk, but I don't necessarily agree with the above. I don't see Kirk wanting to hold his move up. If they hold us up, they hold his potential suitors up, and they hold his own career move up. I don't see that being a direction they want to go.

 

My guess is that Kirk and his agent want a deal agreed in principle as they hit FA. Otherwise he is in danger of washing up somewhere he may not ideally want to be. I really like the timing of our move for Smith because it put Kirks agent on the the clock. Some disagree, fair enough, but I think we've called his bluff. McCarron hitting FA helps too. Hopefully Denver starts to circle around him. 

[Skinsinparadise]

19 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I agree it's a long shot we get any compensation for Kirk, but I don't necessarily agree with the above. I don't see Kirk wanting to hold his move up. If they hold us up, they hold his potential suitors up, and they hold his own career move up. I don't see that being a direction they want to go.

 

 

If some of the national insiders are right in particular the Jets and the Broncos love Kirk then I doubt they'd mind waiting a week or two for this to play out.  If the Redskins want one of the marquee FAs waiting a week or two likely takes them out of the running for them.  I think it complicates them resigning Zach Brown and perhaps others on the roster.

 

Yeah I doubt Kirk will love it.  Buy if anything its a lose, lose.  And McCartney-Kirk have won all of the staring contest showdowns with Bruce -- hard for me to imagine Bruce prevails this time.

 

Having said that, its a win win the way I see it.  Either Bruce gets lucky or perhaps they have a stare down contest and Bruce looks like the fool.  For me personally, either scenario is a win win for me for different reasons. 

 

Do I think Bruce could potentially be petty?  Sure why not?  Incompetent?  Yeah.  Dumb?  No.  So I really doubt this all plays out if its clear they are going to lose.  So I'd really be surprised if anything happens.

 

Edit:  after writing this I turned on 106.7 and ironically they are talking about how the perception out there is McCartney has undressed Bruce.  He's made Bruce look like a fool.  Bruce now wants to do something about it.  Who knows if so -- but for me yeah I am rooting first for getting a pick (even though its crazy unlikely) or a Bruce-McCartney showdown that looks a bit crazy.

[Est.1974]

31 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If some of the national insiders are right in particular the Jets and the Broncos love Kirk then I doubt they'd mind waiting a week or two for this to play out.  If the Redskins want one of the marquee FAs waiting a week or two likely takes them out of the running for them.  I think it complicates them resigning Zach Brown and perhaps others on the roster.

 

I'd counter that by saying if either the Jets or Broncos wanted another marquee FA they wouldn't want to sit a couple of weeks and miss out. The Broncos haven't got the room to sign others and wait on Kirk. Jets maybe have, although Kirk wanting to go to the Jets seems a long shot to me. 

 

Time will tell, I can't see Bruce taking one for the team though. He wants something back and working the cap ain't that difficult if needs be. 

[Skinsinparadise]

6 minutes ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

 

I'd counter that by saying if either the Jets or Broncos wanted another marquee FA they wouldn't want to sit a couple of weeks and miss out. The Broncos haven't got the room to sign others and wait on Kirk. Jets maybe have, although Kirk wanting to go to the Jets seems a long shot to me. 

 

Time will tell, I can't see Bruce taking one for the team though. He wants something back and working the cap ain't that difficult if needs be. 

 

I am assuming the point you are making that its Bruce who has more leverage here?  If so I disagree, at best this is a lose-lose for both sides.  But like I said, I am not sweating it either way.  Either Bruce stuns everybody and gets a pick for Kirk.  Great.  Or if he plays this out -- McCartney likely makes Bruce look like the fool.

 

My feeling is it doesn't happen.  They don't tag Kirk and this is all either overblown or a bluff.   

[Est.1974]

4 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

But like I said, I am not sweating it either way.

 

Likewise to be honest. 

 

I can live with the Smith move as well. Not that confident over FA and the draft, but that's another story. 

[markmills67]

Can we not agree to a LTD with cousins and then trade cousin's and his new LTD to the team he wants to go to and the team who wants him?. 

 

HTTR 

[carex]

55 minutes ago, markmills67 said:

Can we not agree to a LTD with cousins and then trade cousin's and his new LTD to the team he wants to go to and the team who wants him?. 

 

HTTR 

 

Cousins would have no reason to do that and that would accelerate the signing bonus onto our cap

[Est.1974]

The whole QB scene heading I go FAR could be pretty wild.

 

McCarron definatley has suitors .

 

The Eagles claim Foles is going nowhere, they consider the back up QB spot to be one of the pivotal places on the team. A Super Bowl justifies that belief. But I'm sure a bounty of picks and him wanting in on the QB super deals might have an effect on that.

 

The Vikings rumor is that they will NOT tag any on their impending FA QBs. Thats could be good news for Kirk.

 

On the back of that, most of the QB needy teams pick top ten in the draft and you have a handful of QBs who could easily go in that range.

 

The bottom line for me is that if Kirk sets his sights on a single destination, resolving that deal is probably best done soon to alleviate the risk of teams moving onto plan B. It could become a bit of a mess otherwise.

[carex]

7 hours ago, UK SKINS FAN '74 said:

The whole QB scene heading I go FAR could be pretty wild.

 

McCarron definatley has suitors .

 

The Eagles claim Foles is going nowhere, they consider the back up QB spot to be one of the pivotal places on the team. A Super Bowl justifies that belief. But I'm sure a bounty of picks and him wanting in on the QB super deals might have an effect on that.

 

The Vikings rumor is that they will NOT tag any on their impending FA QBs. Thats could be good news for Kirk.

 

On the back of that, most of the QB needy teams pick top ten in the draft and you have a handful of QBs who could easily go in that range.

 

The bottom line for me is that if Kirk sets his sights on a single destination, resolving that deal is probably best done soon to alleviate the risk of teams moving onto plan B. It could become a bit of a mess otherwise.

 

 

the Vikings not tagging anyone COULD be good for Kirk, but not necessarily. After all Bridgewater is still an unknown and Keenum failed with two other teams.  So they might not be eager to jump I mean it could mean the Vikings need a  QB, but it also increases his competition. 

 

Eagles moving Foles would be a training camp thing.  See how Wentz is doing, plus a team who'd missed out on FA and the draft would be desperate and pay a higher price

 

I'm almost expecting Kirk to end up some place shocking, like the Saints.  I mean Brees supposedly only want to play for them at this point, so why wouldn't they want a contract?

 

But wouldn't it be something if Mr. wants too do what's best for players ends up showing that a franchise QB in his prime would not garner these huge salaries, that most teams would want to start fresh with their own guy, who doesn't have a known body of work

[Commander Chaaarmnder]

23 hours ago, tmandoug1 said:

If Kirk picks Cleveland its about the money.......if he picks Denver its about winning. Time will tell.

 Correction: If Kirk picks JACKSONVILLE, it’s about winning.

[tmandoug1]

1 hour ago, chaaarmndr said:

 Correction: If Kirk picks JACKSONVILLE, it’s about winning.

Ok I agree.......Jacksonville would be a better choice.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

This should all but put this idea to bed...

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/17/cba-gives-kirk-cousins-an-immediate-path-to-checkmate-if-washington-tags-him-again/

 

But who am I kidding?

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This should all but put this idea to bed...

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/17/cba-gives-kirk-cousins-an-immediate-path-to-checkmate-if-washington-tags-him-again/

 

But who am I kidding?

 

Yeah I saw that, that's really explicit. I see no wiggle room in the language.  But I hope they try it anyway.  I am rooting for the contract to be capped off with a zoo to add the cherry on top.   Bruce pushed the limits on contracts during the uncapped year and that worked out -- lets see how this goes.

[Veryoldschool]

On 2/16/2018 at 12:28 PM, carex said:

Cousins camp would file grievance for violating spirit of the rules.  Spirit of the rules arguments are bull****

 

and anyway I think the Skins actually set precedent on this.  Sean Gilbert sits out 97 on the franchise tag, they retag him after that year and trade him for two first rounders.  With him sitting out the year it had to be obvious the purpose of the tag was just to recoup something

 

The Skins traded for Smith clearly they are moving from Cousins at QB.  I don't know what the rules but if the rules prohibit holding a player hostage the Skins seem to in an indefensible position because of the Smith trade.   The Skins lost a lot of cap space trying to be clever before and got spanked did they learn?  Maybe not,  perhaps Snyder is stupid enough to try something with Cousins instead of taking the 2019 draft pick.

[theTruthTeller]

36 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

This should all but put this idea to bed...

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2018/02/17/cba-gives-kirk-cousins-an-immediate-path-to-checkmate-if-washington-tags-him-again/

 

But who am I kidding?

I don't know how much Allen makes - top GMs make $3M and up - but even if he makes a measley $1M per year, couldn't he at least read the CBA?  How embarrassing is it to be schooled by Mike Florio?