Game of Thrones Season 8

[Momma There Goes That Man]

16 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

've already touched on the overconfidence part.  If I was the NK and I know that I am our only weakness, I stay as far away as possible until the war is won.  But again overconfidence can kill you.  History has thousands of examples of overconfidence changing the outcome so not sure why it's portrayal here is so implausible.

 

We are just left to assume he was overconfident because he was never developed as a character or really anything at all. 

 

16 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

As for the entire backstory, there is value in leaving some things to viewers imaginations.  It appears that unless you know every single fact in one of the largest fantasy worlds means that they failed.  Even Tolkien didn't explain everything.  Many viewers don't need to be spoonfed every single aspect.  It allows room for fan theory.  It's like some people who have images in their mind of what their favorite character may look like are sometimes disappointed when a movie is made that fills that role with someone that doesn't match that imagined image.

 

I don’t need or want everything explained to me or I think it’s a failure. Leaving things to the imagination is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. There are plenty of cases in this very story where it’s worked out. This is not the case but as a viewer invested in this story, I want and expect payoff for the things they’ve spent 8 seasons deliberately building toward. 

 

The WW haven’t done anything. There were no consequences to their arrival. The world is not changed in any way because of them. The people are not changed in any way. The status quote is the same.

 

They killed a lot of people. Any other war that has hit Westeros would do that as well. Hell all the noble houses and kingdom populations are decimated before the wall is even breached because of all the wars

 

Now the greatest threat in the world is finally here and it doesn’t mean anything. We didn’t even lose anybody of importance. Jorah? Wow.  There were just no consequences for the hero’s fighting, for Cersei choosing herself over helping humanity, for all of the foolish decisions that took place in battle etc. nobody faced any consequences. Nobody didn’t anything of value or significance until the final seconds when Arya’s deus ex machina took over. 

 

And also, does the world end if Bran is killed by the NK? Why is that the 11th hour save anyway? He has no significance it would seem since we also never have understood what role he is supposed to play in the world or why he matters at all but it was the only hint of motive or explanation they bothered with giving us.  

Edited April 30, 2019 by Momma There Goes That Man

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Again, you jags are treating the Night King like a person and not a weird zombie face of death monster thing. For whatever mystical reason, he had to kill Bran and he had to do it personally. The guy is a blue lizard monster snow creature. In nearly all of these types of stories, you need the Big Bad to face the hero (and in the Night King's personal story Bran is the hero for some damn reason) mano y mano or else it's not, you know, a story.

 

One thing I've been pondering is that for, like, four years Jon had no real place in the overall narrative of this story. And then he suddenly seemingly became the hero of the whole damn thing.

 

Well, last night, he was trapped behind a rock.

 

Melisandre did not seek out Jon or Dany. She sought out Arya.

 

The Brotherhood without Borders guy who is literally a messiah figure in the most specific sense died for Arya.

 

The Hound overcame his fears to protect Arya.

 

Arya may, in fact, be the hero of the whole ****ing story from Day 1, and we were distracted by all these other stories. Because, at the end of the day, who the **** cares about who is the male heir with the most direct claim to the crown. Seriously, who cares? I've never cared.

 

There is one more prophecy in this show if you recall. Cersei and a younger brother.

 

**** you. I have an English degree.

 

I watched the first two episodes again a few weeks back. In those episodes, there is only one obviously evil character - Jamie Lannister. Really, from start to finish, he is the villain of season one. But his darkest moment is episode one.

 

Since then, he's been the show's most consistently fascinating character.

 

I don't know who ends up on the throne, but I'm pretty certain that the most important conclusion left is that of Jamie, and his story concludes in front of his sister with some kind of weapon between them. What happens, I'm not exactly sure.

 

But I'm fairly confident at this point in saying that the entire point of this show was to see the journeys of Arya and Jamie. Everything else that happens is window dressing.

 

If there is a genius in this overall story - and I'm frankly not convinced there is - it would be that the tomboy and the child-maimer from Episode One were the two most important characters all along and we never really even noticed.

[Epochalypse]

4 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

We are just left to assume he was overconfident because he was never developed as a character or really anything at all. 

 

 

I don’t need or want everything explained to me or I think it’s a failure. Leaving things to the imagination is a perfectly acceptable thing to do. There are plenty of cases in this very story where it’s worked out. This is not the case but as a viewer invested in this story, I want and expect payoff for the things they’ve spent 8 seasons deliberately building toward. 

 

The WW haven’t done anything. There were no consequences to their arrival. The world is not changed in any way because of them. The people are not changed in any way. The status quote is the same.

 

They killed a lot of people. Any other war that has hit Westeros would do that as well. Hell all the noble houses and kingdom populations are decimated before the wall is even breached because of all the wars

 

Now the greatest threat in the world is finally here and it doesn’t mean anything. We didn’t even lose anybody of importance. Jorah? Wow.  There were just no consequences for the hero’s fighting, for Cersei choosing herself over helping humanity, for all of the foolish decisions that took place in battle etc. nobody faced any consequences. Nobody didn’t anything of value or significance until the final seconds when Arya’s deus ex machina took over. 

 

And also, does the world end if Bran is killed by the NK? Why is that the 11th hour save anyway? He has no significance either. 

I see a lot of contradictions here.  You're fine with things left to the imagination then complain that things were left to the imagination.

 

You say the NK is inconsequential and yet their existence explains the entire shaping process of Jon Snow, arguably the most important role in the story.  They explain why he and Dany meet and join forces, they explain why Jamie is no longer with Cersei, they explain why Dany no longer has a Dothraki horde, and now may be down to 1 or 2 dragons. How are they inconsequential?

[Momma There Goes That Man]

2 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

One thing I've been pondering is that for, like, four years Jon had no real place in the overall narrative of this story. And then he suddenly seemingly became the hero of the whole damn thing.

 

The unassuming nobody with nothing to his name being an extremely important or powerful person is pretty well known. Aren’t you a HP fan? Jon’s story was the backbone of this story as he was our window into what we were told was the real threat and in that, we were given glimpses of his leadership, honor, and all the other reasons he would be the hero for this story. His importance didn’t come out of nowhere tho it sure disappeared ridiculously fast. 

 

5 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Melisandre did not seek out Jon or Dany. She sought out Arya.

 

She didn’t seek out Arya either, she was hiding in the castle and Arya happened to be running away from wights and ended up in that room. She was just as likely to die without ever seeing Arya 

 

6 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

I don't know who ends up on the throne, but I'm pretty certain that the most important conclusion left is that of Jamie, and his story concludes in front of his sister with some kind of weapon between them. What happens, I'm not exactly sure.

 

He was the best character of seasons 1-3 then he kinda just hung around for the next few with no real character development until he was finally pushed away from Cersei. I’m extremely interested to see how his story concludes  

[visionary]

I think part of the problem (other than the strategy and execution complaints) some are having is the differences between the show and the books and accompanied lore which set up different sets of expectations.  

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

8 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

 

The WW haven’t done anything. There were no consequences to their arrival. The world is not changed in any way because of them. The people are not changed in any way. The status quote is the same.

 

 

 

Again, go back to Dany's "Break the Wheel" speech.

 

I've said for ages that if the point of this show is to just have one noble house replace another, we've been masturbating for a decade. Possibly literally because that red-headed wilding was hot.

 

These wars on all fronts have got us to the point where the wheel is almost gone. The Wall and Night's Watch - which were built on BS anyway - are gone. The Wildings - what's left of them - are part of the north (what's left of it) and one of them may end up in some ruling position at this point. Women rule the North and saved the world, literally. The only male Lanninsters seemingly left were in Winterfell fighting for it.

 

The end game is coming down to woman versus woman with cripples, ****s, and broken things on all sides of the battle.

 

Even if somehow in the end Cersei wins, the wheel is broken. She's a queen who relies on no one but a mad scientist, a Frankenstein, a gay pirate, and a bunch of mercenaries. Things are fundamentally changed in this world in a way that can't be restored, I think.

 

By the way, I like the fact that there once, like, a million wildings, and now there is maybe one and the response is "The WW didn't do nothin'."

 

They wiped out an entire civilization. And a pretty good one from what I can tell.

[visionary]

5 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

She didn’t seek out Arya either, she was hiding in the castle and Arya happened to be running away from wights and ended up in that room. She was just as likely to die without ever seeing Arya 

Are you so sure of that?   😉

 

 

Although I think she did seek out Jon as well at the Wall and helped Davos bring him back later and told Dany to talk to him.  Jon helped bring a lot of this together, but turned out to have less of a direct role in the Night King's end then most of us expected.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

6 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

The unassuming nobody with nothing to his name being an extremely important or powerful person is pretty well known. Aren’t you a HP fan? Jon’s story was the backbone of this story as he was our window into what we were told was the real threat and in that, we were given glimpses of his leadership, honor, and all the other reasons he would be the hero for this story. His importance didn’t come out of nowhere tho it sure disappeared ridiculously fast. 

 

 

HP was always about weird breeding to be honest. Harry wasn't a nobody. He had two amazingly important parents and had connections to like the oldest families in the wizarding world and had a bank vault filled with gold. HP had some weird themes if you really look at it closely.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

6 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

I see a lot of contradictions here.  You're fine with things left to the imagination then complain that things were left to the imagination.

 

You say the NK is inconsequential and yet their existence explains the entire shaping process of Jon Snow, arguably the most important role in the story.  They explain why he and Dany meet and join forces, they explain why Jamie is no longer with Cersei, they explain why Dany no longer has a Dothraki horde, and now may be down to 1 or 2 dragons. How are they inconsequential?

 

I am fine with things being left to the imagination if that’s the way they are written. I’m not fine with things written and built up to a certain point suddenly just dropping off a cliff and then being left to the imagination. There is a way to do that. Building something up for 8 seasons to ignore it and render it meaningless is not the way. 

 

I mean if the entire existence of the WW was to get Dany and Jon to meet and get rid of the Dothraki...ok I guess. It does seem now that there only real point is to be the forge that shapes Jon. What impact that will have I guess we will need to wait and see how the final episodes play out.

[Nerm]

1 hour ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Yeah but a he’s not some ninja assassin. That has never been established before. she can steal faces of dead people and mimic them as a sort of charm. That’s not what this is since she legit just ran past everybody. 

 

I have mixed feelings about Aria pulling off that move.  Her getting past the white walkers did seem pretty easy.  On the other hand, the white walkers were not really body guards.  None of them even flinched when Theon charged the NK.  They let the NK take him out, just like it looked like he was going to do to Aria.  Also, I don't think it was a coincidence that the Mormont girl was killed after being grabbed and held up like the NK was doing to Aria at the end.  Those two girls have a lot of similarities, so the scene was set up to look like Aria was going to die.

 

Im OK with the ending, but I personally would have found it to be a more fulfilling if Aria had given her life killing the NK (in the way the Mormont girl went out).  Switch those two fight scenes around, and it would be epic.  

 

I'm not disappointed by the episode at all, but I do feel like there were more compelling endings available.  

[Momma There Goes That Man]

9 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

Again, go back to Dany's "Break the Wheel" speech.

 

I've said for ages that if the point of this show is to just have one noble house replace another, we've been masturbating for a decade. Possibly literally because that red-headed wilding was hot.

 

These wars on all fronts have got us to the point where the wheel is almost gone. The Wall and Night's Watch - which were built on BS anyway - are gone. The Wildings - what's left of them - are part of the north (what's left of it) and one of them may end up in some ruling position at this point. Women rule the North and saved the world, literally. The only male Lanninsters seemingly left were in Winterfell fighting for it.

 

The end game is coming down to woman versus woman with cripples, ****s, and broken things on all sides of the battle.

 

Even if somehow in the end Cersei wins, the wheel is broken. She's a queen who relies on no one but a mad scientist, a Frankenstein, a gay pirate, and a bunch of mercenaries. Things are fundamentally changed in this world in a way that can't be restored, I think.

 

By the way, I like the fact that there once, like, a million wildings, and now there is maybe one and the response is "The WW didn't do nothin'."

 

They wiped out an entire civilization. And a pretty good one from what I can tell.

 

I agree and think the wheel should break and there shouldn’t be an iron throne etc.  this is the story of how a civilization evolves from a medieval monarchy. 

 

i guess my point is that the WW didn’t really do anything to break that wheel. The population of Westeros was barely hanging on anyway. 

 

They didn't change the status quo. Nobody but the nights watch and those close to the wall cared about wildlings anyway. 

 

The WW came and went and other than a bunch of nameless redshirts and a dip in the northern population, Westeros hasn’t changed at all. 

[Yohan]

15 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

 

 

There is one more prophecy in this show if you recall. Cersei and a younger brother.

 

The Valonqar prophecy is not part of the TV show, book reader.

[Captain Wiggles]

10 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

 

i guess my point is that the WW didn’t really do anything to break that wheel. The population of Westeros was barely hanging on anyway. 

 

 

They were the driving force behind uniting most of the world. Pretty much every faction n kingdom united to fight the WW n NK except Cersi n KL.

[visionary]

8 minutes ago, Yohan said:

The Valonqar prophecy is not part of the TV show, book reader.

Pretty sure he didn't get to that part of the series.  I think at least part of it is in the show, though not that word.

[Epochalypse]

You cannot have Jon Snow's development without the WWs.

 

You cannot have Dany and Jon's alliance without WWs.

 

King's Landing likely has no chance against all 3 dragons, full strength Dothraki and Unsullied.

 

Bran never finds out about Jon Snow's heritage without WW storyline.

 

Jon never meets Sam, who apparently is the narrator of this entire thing from most theories, without WW storyline.

 

I could go on and on.

 

I mean the threat and activity of the WWs were so critical to much of the story even if it wasn't the central theme of the story and I have enough backstory to satisfy me.  Think of the WWs as a plague.  We know how the plague started and the threat it poses.  We don't need to know much more than that for it to serve it's purpose.

1 minute ago, visionary said:

Pretty sure he didn't get to that part of the series.  I think at least part of it is in the show, though not that word.

Yeah I thought there was that one intro scene of young Cersei hearing the prophecy right? Too long ago to remember all the details.

[Yohan]

1 minute ago, visionary said:

Pretty sure he didn't get to that part of the series.  I think at least part of it is in the show, though not that word.

 

2 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

 

Yeah I thought there was that one intro scene of young Cersei hearing the prophecy right? Too long ago to remember all the details.

1. Cersei asks if she will wed the prince. Maggy responds, “You will never wed the prince. You will wed the king.”
2. Cersei asks if she will be queen. Maggy responds, “Oh, yes. You’ll be queen. For a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear.”
3. Cersei asks if she and the king will have children. Maggy responds, “No. The king will have 20 children and you will have three. Gold will be their crowns, gold their shrouds.”

 

 

The last line from the books is not in the show. 

[Elessar78]

6 minutes ago, visionary said:

Are you so sure of that?   😉

 

 

Although I think she did seek out Jon as well at the Wall and helped Davos bring him back later and told Dany to talk to him.  Jon helped bring a lot of this together, but turned out to have less of a direct role in the Night King's end then most of us expected.

Melisandre’s raison d’etre isn’t to defeat the night king. It’s to usher in the Lord of Light as the main deity across the narrow sea. 

 

Like she said in a previous season the visions are fuzzy. She clings to any hopeful king: Stannis, Jon, Dany, or Gendry. She’s got real magic (eternal youth, smoke baby, flaming arakhs, resurrection, etc) bit no real vision.

 

seems like R’hollor has a real interest in the events of Westeros but not sure why...

[visionary]

4 minutes ago, Yohan said:

 

1. Cersei asks if she will wed the prince. Maggy responds, “You will never wed the prince. You will wed the king.”
2. Cersei asks if she will be queen. Maggy responds, “Oh, yes. You’ll be queen. For a time. Then comes another, younger, more beautiful, to cast you down and take all you hold dear.”
3. Cersei asks if she and the king will have children. Maggy responds, “No. The king will have 20 children and you will have three. Gold will be their crowns, gold their shrouds.”

 

 

The last line from the books is not in the show. 

Might be because it's considered to much of a spoiler.  We'll have to see.  Maybe she'll remember that part of the prophecy before she dies.  I'm still not sure that she doesn't survive somehow though.  She always seems to come out on top even when everyone around her bites it.

Edited April 30, 2019 by visionary

[Warhead36]

Ohh yeah I completely forgot about Cersei's conversation with the witch.

 

I still think Jon takes the throne, with the "younger more beautiful to cast you down" implying either Arya or Sansa kill Cersei. I thought Arya at first but since she just had her moment in the sun, it might be Cersei that does it.

[Yohan]

1 minute ago, visionary said:

Might be because it's considered to much of a spoiler.  We'll have to see.  Maybe she'll remember that part of the prophecy before she dies.  I'm still not sure that she doesn't survive somehow.  She always seems to come out on top even when everyone around her bites it.

I’m not saying it’s not going to happen that way, but as of right now, no such prophecy exists on the show. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I’m tired of ragging on it. I love this show. It’s my favorite show and my favorite fictional story. I’ve seen the entire series 5 times.  

 

Thats why its so frustrating when things don’t have payoff. I’ve invested in this story. There are no longer consequences for any characters when they make mistakes either in battle or politically when that was something that the show was basically based on earlier.

 

Jon was literally enclosed in a circle, surrounded by hundreds of wights. It cuts away and when it cuts back there are like 5 on screen. 

 

They just don’t care anymore or are just incapable of bringing this thing home and that’s that. The ‘capture a wight’ plot last season showed that and this episode did as well. 

 

As someone said earlier, it’s GRRMs fault for failing to finish the books and giving them actual source material to adapt. Hopefully they can salvage the series and end on a high note with a worthwhile and satisfying conclusion but sadly I’ve lost that hope. 

14 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

Bran never finds out about Jon Snow's heritage without WW storyline.

 

Based on what? His experiences with the 3ER weren’t WW related   

16 minutes ago, Epochalypse said:

Jon never meets Sam, who apparently is the narrator of this entire thing from most theories, without WW storyline.

 

Sam shows up at the wall and Jon defends him well before either know about the WW

[Hersh]

I think the complaint about the NK comes from the show successfully doing so much quality character development that it feels like more should’ve been done surrounding who the NK was before being the NK or more about WW in general. Victim of their own success. 

 

[Yohan]

I get what you are saying @Momma There Goes That Man. The entire series it was leading to Jon being special (other then R+L=J). Stare downs with the Night King made that feel stronger and being killed and brought back to life for a purpose. I’m not sure what that purpose is or if he is special (besides being Aegon) hopefully we find out in the next three episodes.

[Captain Wiggles]

15 minutes ago, Hersh said:

I think the complaint about the NK comes from the show successfully doing so much quality character development that it feels like more should’ve been done surrounding who the NK was before being the NK or more about WW in general. Victim of their own success. 

 

 

I think thats what the prequel is for. GRRM want the series in pre production to be called The Long Night. Prolly for that reason n many more.

[Mooka]

9 hours ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

Nerds are ruining America.

 

Pffft, we give ya'll one half of a story and its immediately the biggest blockbuster success of all time.

 

Without us you're just left talking politics around here.