The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Don't confuse my appreciation for more than what it is. Before Bruce, I appreciated Dan for making me learn to meditate. After Bruce though, when I saw things i advocated for being put in place, i could relax more come early March. If Bruce is the fired tomorrow, hopefully that system of not overspending on free agents, and valuing the draft is not lost. 

 

 

Lot of draft picks were traded under Bruce as to the Shanny regime.  Scot was zealous about keeping and adding picks.  As for Bruce yeah in 2014 & 2017 all was good in terms of keeping picks.  If you fear going back to Vinny's era of giving up picks like crazy.  I think/hope Dan has learned from that.  The idea of just holding on to your picks is what 95% of the team's do.   It's not rocket science. 

 

21 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

Kirk's situation was a gamble and Bruce may have lost. But it will be really bad if we sign Kirk and then go back to 100 million dollar contacts 

 

I don't see it as exclusively a failed Bruce gamble.  I see it as him doing a poor job negotiating the deal both from a money side and also from making Kirk feel wanted.  I agree with ex-agent Joel Corry when he was asked to rate on a scale of 0-10 (with 10 being horrible) how the Redskins handled the Kirk contract.  His answer was 12.

 

I gave Bruce the benefit of the doubt on both the Scot situation and the Kirk contract in 2017 until it all unfolded.  So I didn't have any irrational dislike of the dude.  I just observed what happened and hated how it all unfolded.  

 

And, if Kirk gets a 100 million dollar contract, its not bad business IMO -- that's good business.  That's what teams do to lock in their franchise QBs.

 

You seem hung up on the big mistakes of the past.  I get it.  But #1 reason for the losing IMO has been no quarterback.  Having bad quarterbacks and wasting draft picks to fix it and squandering seasons developing busts at that position is even a bigger deal for the misery here than Vinny trading away draft picks. 

 

I am surprised for someone who is so bent on reliving all that pain forget the QB component of it.  The QB component was the lead dance for the pain.  Yeah signing a top 10 QB who you developed and signing guys like Haynesworth are apples and oranges to say the least.  It's not even in the same conversation.

 

My thing on Bruce though remains he should stay in his lane.   I don't dislike the dude when he stays in his lane.  I think its odd that he's willing to stick his neck out so much.  Florio (who I typically don't care for) said when they fired Scot that he didn't expect Bruce to hold on to the power where the buck stops with him because if he did it would make him a target for when things go south.  And why would he want that?  Well, now he is that target.  In Bruce's shoes, I'd put someone else out there as THE guy.

[Wildbunny]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

If I'm a fan of Bruce Allen, I'd be praying that he finds a way to lock Kirk up.  Because if Kirk goes, Bruce will be next. 

The real question is 'how long will Bruce survive as Team President if Kirk ever hits FA?'. Not long I believe.

 

I believe Bruce would last shorter than Kirk signing a contract somewhere else so the new guy can try to save anything he can, if possible...

[@DCGoldPants]

FYI-The Giants fired and hired a replacement at GM all before the season ended. 

 

There is a reason why even ownerships that have been part of the NFL forever feel they need these guys.

 

I think Mara is a jerk and has used his influence to go after division rivals. But his team is going rebound faster because if they had a Bruce Allen type..... He'd be fired by now. 

[SkinsFTW]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 Florio (who I typically don't care for) said when they fired Scot that he didn't expect Bruce to hold on to the power where the buck stops with him because if he did it would make him a target for when things go south.  And why would he want that?  Well, now he is that target.  In Bruce's shoes, I'd put someone else out there as THE guy.

 

Snyder fired Schottenheimer because he didn't like someone else playing with his toys. He fired Shanny because he didn't like someone else breaking his toys, but somehow the firing of McCloughan was Bruce Allen trying to gain power?

 

It's all Dan Snyder and always has been.

 

He doesn't like having his yes men interfered with by competent professionals. Therefore there was no replacement. History proves that Snyder prefers the fubar setup over competence.

 

Gibbs played along with the Snyderatto Charade, and those teams peaked before they decided he needed Al Saunders to help him run the offense.

 

We just can't have nice things with the 3 year old mentality running the team. Learn to live with it or follow Kirk out the door when he finds a better place.

[Thinking Skins]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Lot of draft picks were traded under Bruce as to the Shanny regime.  Scot was zealous about keeping and adding picks.  As for Bruce yeah in 2014 & 2017 all was good in terms of keeping picks.  If you fear going back to Vinny's era of giving up picks like crazy.  I think/hope Dan has learned from that.  The idea of just holding on to your picks is what 95% of the team's do.   It's not rocket science. 

 

We can differ in opinions on this. When Snanny left, it seems that so did those trades.  Maybe Bruce had some evil scheme where he was trying to make the team worse to eventually gain control to make it better, but i think that's a convoluted idea. What we see more of us that GMs in general seem to like younger players and coaches seem to like vets. That's not a Redskins thing, but a general thing and it's a main reason why coaches perform purely as gms. They undervalue the drafts. With Snyder, we've given every coach too much power until now. And i like how things are, even this year with bringing in all the UDFAs and practice squad players. I think that's a Bruce thing and i think it's not by coincidence that this trend began when Mike left. 

 

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And, if Kirk gets a 100 million dollar contract, its not bad business IMO -- that's good business.  That's what teams do to lock in their franchise QBs.

 

I'm not worried about Kirk getting 100+ million. That's expected. I'm worried about the next Haynesworth/Hall/Lloyd/Archuletta/etc that is a bust who we can't cut because of dead money. 

 

Quote

You seem hung up on the big mistakes of the past.  I get it.  But #1 reason for the losing IMO has been no quarterback.  Having bad quarterbacks and wasting draft picks to fix it and squandering seasons developing busts at that position is even a bigger deal for the misery here than Vinny trading away draft picks. 

 

So this is you and i disagreeing on the ingredients to make a perfect cake. I say that with everything else we can win with Ramsey or Campbell or another young QB who doesn't make mistakes and is a game manager. That's why i respect teams like the Ravens and Steelers who continued to win without a QB before they found their guys. 

 

Quote

My thing on Bruce though remains he should stay in his lane.   I don't dislike the dude when he stays in his lane.  I think its odd that he's willing to stick his neck out so much.  Florio (who I typically don't care for) said when they fired Scot that he didn't expect Bruce to hold on to the power where the buck stops with him because if he did it would make him a target for when things go south.  And why would he want that?  Well, now he is that target.  In Bruce's shoes, I'd put someone else out there as THE guy.

This is all above my head. There is so much that i don't know about and don't care about. Right now i just want a winning team. Under Bruce we have stability and seem to be doing it the right way. There's a lot of rumors and stuff about his personally and how he treats people and whether Kirk likes him, all stuff that i don't get paid enough to worry about. To me it comes down to are we ready for the draft, can we sign Kirk and if not do we have a backup plan. If Kirk is gone next year and wet have vision forward because we signed Jimmy Garoppolo then i can sleep. If we sign Alex Smith and draft a rookie, it's not what i want but i can sleep. What i don't want though is going back to trading a second and third for Andy Dalton because it's a step back in both qb and the draft and team philosophy in terms of trading picks. 

[Skinsinparadise]

25 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

 Maybe Bruce had some evil scheme where he was trying to make the team worse to eventually gain control to make it better, but i think that's a convoluted idea. 

 

I didn't say Bruce had an evil scheme to trade picks and it was part of some convoluted plan to grab power. That's ludicrous.  I doubt he was even the originator of the trades -- I think that was likely Dan.   To each their own, but I think I am much more balanced on Bruce than you are. 

 

I actually gave plenty of strong arguments for Bruce on the Kirk contract last off season.  It all made sense to me as long as he ended up signing him that off season in the end.  I don't have any attachment to anyone in the FO.  I even had Bruce's back on the Scot stuff initially saying look if Scot was a problem cool lets see what Bruce had next up his sleeve. 

 

I don't lionize anyone in the FO.  Just because Bruce does it -- doesn't make it right.  And I am not picking on him, I feel that way about everyone there.

 

25 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

 

So this is you and i disagreeing on the ingredients to make a perfect cake. I say that with everything else we can win with Ramsey or Campbell or another young QB who doesn't make mistakes and is a game manager. That's why i respect teams like the Ravens and Steelers who continued to win without a QB before they found their guys. 

 

I don't want to turn this into the Kirk thread.  So I'll be brief.   Steelers were 6-10.  Ravens 5-11 before they landed those players.  They were good before that but bottomed out.   Bottoming out and building a roster and hoping to land the next great QB in the draft -- is a sad song we've played for over 20 years.  Denver has a loaded roster in theory -- would I want to be them?  Nope. If you are into trying that again, to each their own. 

[Riggo-toni]

1 hour ago, @SkinsGoldPants said:

FYI-The Giants fired and hired a replacement at GM all before the season ended. 

 

There is a reason why even ownerships that have been part of the NFL forever feel they need these guys.

 

And the guy he hired, Gettleman, has a proven track record with both the Giants and the Panthers. Notice how precipitously the Giants went down the tubes and then the Panthers went to the SB after he changed teams. This guy was there for the taking, but Cousin Brucey passed him over cuz he had no Tampa time...just like we passed over Wade Phillips for the incomparable Joe Barry. Today the Giants sent us on our way back to the NFCE cellar.

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Snyder fired Schottenheimer because he didn't like someone else playing with his toys. He fired Shanny because he didn't like someone else breaking his toys, but somehow the firing of McCloughan was Bruce Allen trying to gain power?

 

It's all Dan Snyder and always has been.

 

He doesn't like having his yes men interfered with by competent professionals. 

 

I've made the point several times on this thread that the FO structure gives Dan the ability to do what he wants without interfering.  And that's what it feels like the bottom line is.

 

Dan's team.  Dan's FO structure.  Dan's the bottom line in everything.  

 

I just think there is plenty of evidence that Bruce has added his own special stamp to some of the dysfunction.  I doubt for example Dan told Bruce hey dude doesn't it bother you that people are playing up Scot's picks -- go tell whomever will listen that Morgan Moses was one of your guys.  Kirk's contract issues has Bruce's signature all over it.  Kirk's camp, Scot's camp seem to focus on Bruce not Dan.  Is Dan responsible? Of course.  But I think Bruce has brought some of these problems all on his own.  

 

[Burgold]

As crazy as it sounds, I think 2018 is the do or die year for Bruce and company.  Here's why.

 

Everyone said that the Redskins executed one of the best drafts in the entire league in 2017.

         The thing about the 2017 class is very few are giving the FO credit for it. Many are saying (fairly) that the Redskins merely executed Scott's board. That this draft was better than the Scott draft isn't really here or there. That it was better than a Shanny/Allen draft isn't really here or there. What matters is that they need to do it again. They need to show that the team they assembled can execute great drafts routinely. That it wasn't an accident, fluke, or the result of relying on someone else's work.

 

The other thing the the Redskins front office deserve credit for is managing to assemble a team that could be competitive despite relying on 3rd stringers at multiple positions for much of the year. That's quite an accomplishment. It's impressive and one of the reasons that this year is so hard to pin down.

 

The last issue is the Kirk Cousins issue. It's possible that ship has sailed and that the team has mucked it up so badly that no matter what they do they can't fix it, but even if that's the case they have to show better effort. I understood why they went with the franchise tag in 2016. I didn't last year. Worse, I didn't understand why neither side put forth any effort to try to get this done. They basically decided to go with the franchise offer and stopped negotiating. I want to see the Redskins roll up their sleeves and court the hell out of Kirk. I want to see them try to knock him off balance with the opening offer. I do not want to see them put forth a reasonable low offer expecting the normal negotiating song and dance. The thing is, the Redskins lost this bet. They bet Kirk would come down to Earth and they could get him more cheaply. If they don't believe Kirk's the guy then let him walk. If they do think he's worth keeping then to me it's long term deal or bust. If the Redskins franchise Kirk again they lost. If they let him go they lost. The only way the Redskins can come out winners is if Kirk does too. I honestly don't know if Kirk is worth the contract that he's owed by the Redskins, but he is due that contract if only because the Redskins kept screwing up.

 

Still, I don't think Bruce should be canned this year. There are compelling reasons (minus kirk) to believe that the Redskins Front Office did a good job in 2017. I do think he should be on the shortest of leashes.

 

 

 

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

43 minutes ago, Burgold said:

Still, I don't think Bruce should be canned this year. There are compelling reasons (minus kirk) to believe that the Redskins Front Office did a good job in 2017. I do think he should be on the shortest of leashes.

I'm not a pitchforks kinda guy, but this line of reasoning is the same that was used for giving Joe Barry one more year.

 

I don't give a **** how many excuses/leashes we give Bruce, he has never shown the ability to assemble a championship team.  Not even close.  Anywhere.  Me personally, I don't need to add another year to the list for further proof. 

 

He is an anchor on our FO and organization.  The sooner he leaves the better. 

[Thinking Skins]

I'm with Judy about everything you said @Burgold. I'm impressed with the UDFAs and the draft and i give the front office credit for this because they had to make the (phone) calls. I'm sure that in 2015 we had Williams and Scherff ranked high, but when the moment came and they were both in the clock (something we had imagined couldn't happen), Scot made the call to go with Scherff. In 2017 Allen was there and I'm sure there were thoughts to go with someone else but the front office went with Allen. We did similar thing when Orakpo dropped. 

 

But i agree that if we don't do it again in this year's draft and pick some good players again it's all for naught. I really want cousins back, but i don't want to imagine it because i think it's so unlikely. As a result i do wonder if the next guy we bring in can make us forget about cousins. I remember when we lost Trent Green, we brought in  Johnson and were able to go 10-6.

[Boss_Hogg]

Are the Washington Redskins the only team in the NFL without a true football GM? 

 

 

[Berggy9598]

40 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

I'm with Judy about everything you said @Burgold. I'm impressed with the UDFAs and the draft and i give the front office credit for this because they had to make the (phone) calls. I'm sure that in 2015 we had Williams and Scherff ranked high, but when the moment came and they were both in the clock (something we had imagined couldn't happen), Scot made the call to go with Scherff. In 2017 Allen was there and I'm sure there were thoughts to go with someone else but the front office went with Allen. We did similar thing when Orakpo dropped. 

 

But i agree that if we don't do it again in this year's draft and pick some good players again it's all for naught. I really want cousins back, but i don't want to imagine it because i think it's so unlikely. As a result i do wonder if the next guy we bring in can make us forget about cousins. I remember when we lost Trent Green, we brought in  Johnson and were able to go 10-6.

Went 10-6 yes, but that was 1999 and we didn't find consistent play at QB until 2015. I sincerely hope if Cousins is replaced it's not another one year wonder followed by a decade and a half of mostly caca

[Makaveli]

Not sure how legitimate SportingNews is or how credible the author is, but could there be any truth to this?

 

SN: Bucs should keep Dirk Koetter as coach, for sake of Jameis Winston

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The NFL rumor mill is already churning with gossip that Bruce Allen may leave his post as Washington’s football czar to get the band back together on Florida’s gulf coast. We do know for certain that Gruden still lives in Tampa. Statues of him and other key members of the 2002 Bucs are the centerpiece artwork of the lobby at team headquarters.

 

This is the first I've heard of "rumors" about Allen leaving and it seems unlikely.

[Wildbunny]

3 hours ago, Burgold said:

Still, I don't think Bruce should be canned this year. There are compelling reasons (minus kirk) to believe that the Redskins Front Office did a good job in 2017. I do think he should be on the shortest of leashes.

Only reason I see Bruce being shown the door is if Kirk leaves through FA and Dan gets mad at it and send him to Pluto...

[carex]

23 hours ago, SkinsFTW said:

 

Snyder fired Schottenheimer because he didn't like someone else playing with his toys. He fired Shanny because he didn't like someone else breaking his toys, but somehow the firing of McCloughan was Bruce Allen trying to gain power?

 

It's all Dan Snyder and always has been.

 

He doesn't like having his yes men interfered with by competent professionals. Therefore there was no replacement. History proves that Snyder prefers the fubar setup over competence.

 

Gibbs played along with the Snyderatto Charade, and those teams peaked before they decided he needed Al Saunders to help him run the offense.

 

We just can't have nice things with the 3 year old mentality running the team. Learn to live with it or follow Kirk out the door when he finds a better place.

 

yeah, cause people they don't change at all in 18 years

[carex]

2 hours ago, Berggy9598 said:

Went 10-6 yes, but that was 1999 and we didn't find consistent play at QB until 2015. I sincerely hope if Cousins is replaced it's not another one year wonder followed by a decade and a half of mostly caca

 

part of that was the coaches, not just the front office.  Spurrier sucked and Patrick Ramsey never had a chance to develop because of him, and Gibbs and Shanny were both allowed to go out and acquire a past their prime veteran that delayed developing a solid starter. 

 

And I still think people underestimate Jason Campbell.  He was never great but he was an okay QB

[Berggy9598]

12 minutes ago, carex said:

 

yeah, cause people they don't change at all in 18 years

Every single person to come in building and try to do things professionally, bar Gibbs, was eventually chased out of the door. 

[Wildbunny]

8 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

Every single person to come in building and try to do things professionally, bar Gibbs, was eventually chased out of the door. 

They haven't fired Gruden yet.

 

Now, in this kind of jobs, everyone will get fired sooner or later. That's part of it.

Broncos fired Shanahan, Giants fired Coughlin... Happens all the time to everyone. I'm pretty sure there's not a coach that hasn't been fired at least once in his career. (except Tomlin, but he's rather the exception here)

GMs are all alike,

Some here are crowning Gettleman as a competent GM. He's not that popular in Carolina. He's the one that send Norman into FA.

 

So stating that everyone here is being shown the door, well, that's just casual life in the NFL.

[Berggy9598]

Just now, Wildbunny said:

They haven't fired Gruden yet.

 

Now, in this kind of jobs, everyone will get fired sooner or later. That's part of it.

Broncos fired Shanahan, Giants fired Coughlin... Happens all the time to everyone. I'm pretty sure there's not a coach that hasn't been fired at least once in his career. (except Tomlin, but he's rather the exception here)

GMs are all alike,

Some here are crowning Gettleman as a competent GM. He's not that popular in Carolina. He's the one that send Norman into FA.

 

So stating that everyone here is being shown the door, well, that's just casual life in the NFL.

If you ignore take at face value and ignore the fact that a. There was a circus every time, and b. McCloughan and Schottenheimer were fired even though they did a good job. 

[Burgold]

19 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

Every single person to come in building and try to do things professionally, bar Gibbs, was eventually chased out of the door. 

I still have my doubts that Shanny tried to do things professionally. With the exception of RGIII's rookie year he was a six win a year coach. I think he was coasting on reputation by the time he got here.

[carex]

8 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

Every single person to come in building and try to do things professionally, bar Gibbs, was eventually chased out of the door. 

 

Bruce Allen, like him him or not, is professional enough that he's been employed consistently in the league for two decades, minus one year.  And who are these supposed professionals shown the door?  Spurrier? Zorn?  Shanahan maybe, but he was in the fourth year of a five year deal that gave him total control.  Would you really give total roster control to a guy who might not be back the year after?  And GMSM, whether you want to admit it or not, has had drinking problems.

 

Your case is selective and biased

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

One of the more interesting sides to the Dan/Bruce homers is that they dump blame on coaches, players, "GM"'s, etc. yet Dan and/or Bruce are responsible for employing these folks.

 

Moral of the story: Dan and Bruce both suck no matter which way you try to spin it.

[Wildbunny]

2 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

If you ignore take at face value and ignore the fact that a. There was a circus every time, and b. McCloughan and Schottenheimer were fired even though they did a good job. 

 

Every team that lose looks like a circus.

McClouhhlan doing a good job remains to be seen. The Matt Jones or Sua Cravens picks doesn't look that great right now...

Schottenheimer went 8-8 which I would say is average, regarding to NFL standings.

So the good job stuff is according to you.

 

 

Now, I was pointing out that what you claimed as an incompetent way of leading an NFL team happens in every NFL teams and to every NFL coaches. Because, sooner or later you'll hit a rock bottom, or you won't improve enough, and the owner will want some fresh blood on the bench and in the office to try to go to the next step.

[carex]

15 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

If you ignore take at face value and ignore the fact that a. There was a circus every time, and b. McCloughan and Schottenheimer were fired even though they did a good job. 

 

Schottenheimer didn't do that good a job.  8-8 and his vets like Green and Bruce Smith didn't like him

10 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I still have my doubts that Shanny tried to do things professionally. With the exception of RGIII's rookie year he was a six win a year coach. I think he was coasting on reputation by the time he got here.

 

Plus I don't think Shanny has had a good relationship with a QB besides Elway in his career.  I don't think his ego and the ego of a top quality QB can co-exist