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2018 Comprehensive NFL Draft Thread

Going Commando

By Going Commando
in The Stadium

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MartinC

MartinC

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, wilco_holland said:

Second difference is that big hand QB's are able to use more of the middle part of there finger to get the grip. Their fingers wrap more around the ball and are firm on the laces. Small hand QB's use more the tip of the fingers, it's more the end of the finger that holds onto the laces. 

 

 

Every QB should be using the tips of their fingers - you don't want your palm on the ball at all when you hold it. There are QBs who develop their own way and palm it - Aikman was one. But thats not how you would coach a young QB.

 

But hand size does matter. It's more about the span of thumb to end of index finger than finger length though - you get a better grip the wider that span is.

7 hours ago, wilco_holland said:

Hohoho, sparky package Kalen Ballage. I don't think he is the most pure RB talent but his size and speed are so interesting. If you get him in space he is explosive but not really the type of player that is shifty between tackles. You need to have a good O-coordinator to get most out of this guys pure athletic talents.  

 

I live in Phoenix and have seen a lot of Ballage at ASU. He's a good size/speed guy but he runs high, has poor vision and (as you say) is not shifty. He's a straight line runner. He's also poor in blitz pick up (and shows no interest in doing that job). He is another version of Matt Jones IMO.

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted

John Keim Retweeted Grant Paulsen

Key: Can be a three-down guy, play DT in nickel. Should be a person of interest for the Redskins over the next few months.

John Keim added,

Grant PaulsenVerified account @granthpaulsen
Booger McFarland talking Vita Vea on #GrantAndDanny: "If you are running the 3-4 defense and you're looking for the second coming of Haloti Ngata or Vince Wilfork, he's your guy."
 
 
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clskinsfan

clskinsfan

Posted
Posted
12 hours ago, mistertim said:

So he's basically the same height as Brees. However, there is a big difference between successful shorter QBs like Brees/Wilson and Mayfield. Both Brees and Wilson had VERY big hands for their size. Both were 10.25 inches. Mayfield's are quite a bit smaller. I think that makes a pretty big difference. 

 

Hand size is a bit misleading IMO. Heath Shuler had 10.63" hands. And was a 6'2. He didnt have as big an arm as Mayfield. But he was excellent at TN. He was about as good a first round QB prospect as there could be. And he failed. The list is long of those failures regardless of hand size :). Bottom line is first round QB's are a crapshoot. I think guys are much more prepared to go into the NFL game now then they were back in 1994. But it is still an adjustment that some guys just never make.

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MartinC

MartinC

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, clskinsfan said:

 

Hand size is a bit misleading IMO. Heath Shuler had 10.63" hands. And was a 6'2. He didnt have as big an arm as Mayfield. But he was excellent at TN. He was about as good a first round QB prospect as there could be. And he failed. The list is long of those failures regardless of hand size :). Bottom line is first round QB's are a crapshoot. I think guys are much more prepared to go into the NFL game now then they were back in 1994. But it is still an adjustment that some guys just never make.

 Shuler failed because he could not grasp (or execute) an NFL playbook not because of hand size. He could not even call plays in the huddle.

 

The mental side - ability to learn the playbook and understand the play concepts, then process information REALLY quickly - is what separates those that make from those that don't. This assume a baseline physical skill set. Once you have that baseline things like arm strength, height etc start to become far less important.

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skinny21

skinny21

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

Every QB should be using the tips of their fingers - you don't want your palm on the ball at all when you hold it. There are QBs who develop their own way and palm it - Aiken was one. But thats not how you would coach a young QB.

 

But hand size does matter. It's more about the span of thumb to end of index finger than finger length though - you get a better grip the wider that span is.

 

I live in Phoenix and have seen a lot of Ballage at ASU. He's a good size/speed guy but he runs high, has poor vision and (as you say) is not shifty. He's a straight line runner. He's also poor in blitz pick up (and shows no interest in doing that job). He is another version of Matt Jones IMO.

That's weird, I was just watching some (more) of Ballage's tape and that's exactly who came to mind.  Lacked fluidity and burst too (more so than Jones in my mind), something I think our guys are also lacking.  

 

 

I'd be curious how people are ranking the top backs - specifically the backs that fit our need/system.  

 

I like Jones a lot, but not sure he has the frame to hold up.  Same criticism for Wadley.  Also like Johnson (uh...), but I can't tell how well he'd fit our system.  

 

For me its Barkley, Guice, Michel, and then Penny, Johnson, Jones, Chubb (not necessarily in that order).   Haven't checked into some other guys yet (Webb and Carter, for example), but hard no on Scott and Ballage.  

 

 

As as of now, I have 

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skinny21

skinny21

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

John Keim Retweeted Grant Paulsen

Key: Can be a three-down guy, play DT in nickel. Should be a person of interest for the Redskins over the next few months.

John Keim added,

Grant PaulsenVerified account @granthpaulsen
Booger McFarland talking Vita Vea on #GrantAndDanny: "If you are running the 3-4 defense and you're looking for the second coming of Haloti Ngata or Vince Wilfork, he's your guy."
 
 

That's just about ideal for me.  Don't get me wrong, I prize versatility a bit less than Gruden appears to, but a guy that can (ably) play NT and DT would be huge for us - it gives us the run stopper we've needed and a sub/injury replacement for our starting DTs.  

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MartinC

MartinC

Posted
Posted
27 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

That's just about ideal for me.  Don't get me wrong, I prize versatility a bit less than Gruden appears to, but a guy that can (ably) play NT and DT would be huge for us - it gives us the run stopper we've needed and a sub/injury replacement for our starting DTs.  

 

FWIW I read we are not high on Vea but are high on Payne.

 

Now that might be just because we figure Vea will be gone before we pick and Payne will likely still be on the board. Its also that time of year when most of what you hear/read is BS.

 

It also seems though that we are spending a lot of time looking at the QB's ...

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Skinsinparadise

Skinsinparadise

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, MartinC said:

 

FWIW I read we are not high on Vea but are high on Payne.

 

Now that might be just because we figure Vea will be gone before we pick and Payne will likely still be on the board. Its also that time of year when most of what you hear/read is BS.

 

It also seems though that we are spending a lot of time looking at the QB's ...

 

I agree with this point, the one thing I'd throw out there on this and I mentioned this point awhile back on this thread is Tomsula last summer said something to the effect of he doesn't like his nose tackles to be the traditional big mammoth size.  He said it different than that but however he said it -- it left me with the impression that he wants his nose tackles a bit more nimble than the stereotypical one.   So it made me wonder if Payne is more up his alley than Vea. 

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Tay

Tay

Posted
Posted

I agree that Vea is a big talent, but it wouldn't surprise me to see him drop further than most people project. It seem that there's a recent trend where run stuffing D Linemen are not seen as a premium position early in the first round.  

 

The first run stuffing D Lineman selected last year was Dalvin Tomlinson at 55. In 2016 it was Kenny Clark at 27.  I remember 2016 being surprising because many people expected the Alabama DTs to go early (Reed and Robinson). The ended being selected at 49 and 46 respectively.

 

It'll be interesting to see if that trend continues with Vea.

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clskinsfan

clskinsfan

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Tay said:

I agree that Vea is a big talent, but it wouldn't surprise me to see him drop further than most people project. It seem that there's a recent trend where run stuffing D Linemen are not seen as a premium position early in the first round.  

 

The first run stuffing D Lineman selected last year was Dalvin Tomlinson at 55. In 2016 it was Kenny Clark at 27.  I remember 2016 being surprising because many people expected the Alabama DTs to go early (Reed and Robinson). The ended being selected at 49 and 46 respectively.

 

It'll be interesting to see if that trend continues with Vea.

 

A lot of that has to do with the pace NFL offenses have started to use. Green Bay did it to us in our last payoff game against them. They get a matchup they like (in this case it was Terrence Knighton) and force you to keep the fat guys on the field. Now Rodgers is a master at doing it and they killed us with that. But you are seeing more of it used in the league now. 

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Always A Commander Never A Captain

Always A Commander Never A Captain

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, clskinsfan said:

 

A lot of that has to do with the pace NFL offenses have started to use. Green Bay did it to us in our last payoff game against them. They get a matchup they like (in this case it was Terrence Knighton) and force you to keep the fat guys on the field. Now Rodgers is a master at doing it and they killed us with that. But you are seeing more of it used in the league now. 

 

Unlike Knighton, Vea can actually push the pocket.  He's better suited in base, but he seems to be the rare NT that wouldn't suck in Nickel.

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mistertim

mistertim

Posted
Posted

I think it probably just has more to do with the type of 3-4 we prefer to run. Not so much the more old school 3-4 where every DL is a big 2 gapper and the LBs flow downhill and make the plays, but more of a penetrating 3-4 Under 1 gap approach where the DL guys, including the NT, are not just trying to eat up blockers but penetrate into the backfield. Its super rare to find a guy who is huge and can also penetrate consistently. Vea seems much more like a pure 2 gapper though he has shown that he can also push the pocket. I guess maybe they just prefer more nimble guys.

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MartinC

MartinC

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Unlike Knighton, Vea can actually push the pocket.  He's better suited in base, but he seems to be the rare NT that wouldn't suck in Nickel.

 

This thing about a nose tackle ...

 

Better to think of D-line in terms of what technique they play and 1 gap versus 2 gap. We are in nickel over 60% of snaps and then we are in a 4 down line look normally. In that Kerrigan and Smith usually play 7 or 9 tech and we have a 3 and 5 tech inside. In base we have rarely have a zero tech but more often have a 1 or 2 tech.

 

We play manly 1 gap in both base and nickel.

 

So in drafting and interior NT type D-Line high you are looking for someone who can play 3 downs. That means someone who can play 1/2 tech in base and slide out to 3 tech maybe in nickel and who can get up field in a 1 gap system. That’s a rare beast.

 

When most people think of a 3-4 they think of a big space eating 2 gap NT. Thats not what we will be looking for. And if we were it’s not someone you draft with a top 15 pick.

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

I think it probably just has more to do with the type of 3-4 we prefer to run. Not so much the more old school 3-4 where every DL is a big 2 gapper and the LBs flow downhill and make the plays, but more of a penetrating 3-4 Under 1 gap approach where the DL guys, including the NT, are not just trying to eat up blockers but penetrate into the backfield. Its super rare to find a guy who is huge and can also penetrate consistently. Vea seems much more like a pure 2 gapper though he has shown that he can also push the pocket. I guess maybe they just prefer more nimble guys.

 

Great minds :-)

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Redskins Reparations

Redskins Reparations

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, TheShredSkinz said:

Remember him being a near 5star recruit for VT. Flashed a lol this year but probably left a year early. Could be a mid round gem line a lot of VT players. I could see Seatlle looking at the corner.....the tall one.

 

Settle is the 3rd ranked NT in this year's draft behind Vea and Payne. Draft experts are predicting Settle to be drafted in the 2nd round. I would hope the front office addresses NT in the draft if they fail to sign a quality starting NT in free agency.

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mistertim

mistertim

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, skinny21 said:

I wouldn't have guessed so, but does Taylor fit in that mold? 

 

I think Taylor is more of a situational guy for us when we want to run a more 2 gap run stuffing base sometimes, usually on 1st or 2nd down or short yardage situations. He didn't cost us much so it isn't really a problem having him pretty much just for that role. However, there's a difference between having a decent vet for mediocre money and using a top 15 pick on a guy. If you use a top 15 pick on a DL guy you want him to be an every down sort of dude and be able to stuff the run, penetrate, rush the passer...especially in the more 3-4 Under 1 gap base that we tend to run. I just don't think Vea is the right guy for our system. Doesn't mean he isn't a hell of a player.

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“Misdirection”

“Misdirection”

Posted
Posted

Settle is a nimble dude, I recall a couple clips recently if him on a scoop and (almost) score and a punt return.

 

http://www.thekeyplay.com/virginia-tech-football/2016/07/12267/massive-defensive-tackle-tim-settle-shows-his-wheels 

 

And here he is gunning down a punt returner in practice 

 

http://www.thekeyplay.com/virginia-tech-football/2016/07/12267/massive-defensive-tackle-tim-settle-shows-his-wheels

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