twa Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Harris X is a pretty **** pollster. Kamala and all the other low digit candidates should drop out before voting actually starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 2 hours ago, PeterMP said: There are multiple studies that show consolidation is a major driving force of increase patient costs. E.g. https://blog.definitivehc.com/hospital-market-consolidation-patient-costs and competition keeps prices low: https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2014/10/competition-keeps-health-care-costs-low--researchers-find.html We can argue over the mechanism of the process, but it is hard to believe if consolidation is driving price increases to patients and competition is tied to lower prices that reversing the consolidations that have happened won't lower prices. Now, it might not be much or enough (and I tend to think it won't and if you go back to one of my posts I alluded to doing what was done to the insurance industry to other industries, and I suspect that we'll probably have to do the same with healthcare providers (e.g. profits and upper level management compensation will have to be capped for large health care providers)). But to unilaterally declare it isn't enough or to hold that it won't work at all isn't supported by the evidence. Up to a 54% increase for a hospital isn't something to sneeze at. And as @Renegade7 stated it is a complex problem and attacking it in pieces probably makes sense. If you can get a national public option and caps on drug prices to with stand court challenges and show they work, then doing more with respect to health care providers becomes a lot more feasible (at that time, the providers will become willing negotiators in terms of future and further regulation). (**EDIT** I'm sure if you look, you can find old posts of mine here where I argue that the health care market/industries are heavily inelastic. Which is essentially what you are arguing and has been a pretty common view by liberal economists. But over the last 5+ years there has been a number of studies that show that isn't the case. I'm honestly not sure why the markets appear to be as elastic as they are, but it is hard to argue with the studies that have come out. And I'd still argue the health care market/industries aren't rational or good markets for the reasons laid out by @gbear , but it is pretty clear they are heavily elastic (and going to a nationalized health care system won't make them rational or good markets either, I don't think.).) The studies definitely establish a correlation between mergers and higher prices, but it's still hard to say that they are comparing apples to apples or that the increase in price isn't simply an issue of correction. For example, many large health systems focus on improved patient outcome due to that metric being important in a post-ACA era. That means the same surgical procedure at hospital A may operate under a dramatically different set of rules and procedures than hospital B. As for the 54% increase, that's a single instance from West Virginia as covered by NYT where the town couldn't support two hospitals, merged, and eventually got bought out by the state's largest system. And the article mentions that average increase in rest of WV (where presumably the state's largest health system operates and perhaps even dominates in some areas) was a 10% increase. Why did the health system negotiate a 54% increase in that town alone? Was it predatory price increase or simple market correction? It's entirely possible that mergers are resulting in unnecessary increase in price. But it's also possible that some additional measures focused on improved patient outcome may be driving some of that increase as well (as well as improved bargaining power shifting money from insurance companies to healthcare providers). Consolidation and association of healthcare providers, to a certain extent, was a deliberate policy choice under ACA, largely in pursuit of improved care. It may prove myopic to call for a total rollback in pursuit of cost control. As for elasticity of demand, yes, we see elasticity in certain types of healthcare segment such as prescription drugs, diagnostic scans, and specialists, where people have time and resources to compare and shop around. But elasticity is essentially nil when it comes to preventative care and emergency care (obviously because people care more about the doctor than cost when it comes to primary care and no one is looking up whether that hospital 10 minutes further away may have cheaper triage fee). I'm not going to say that traditional market forces have no place in healthcare cost control. But it's not that simple either because, as you and I agree, healthcare is not a rational market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Taken to the Obamacare thread because we've gotten pretty far off topic from discussing Presidential candidates proposals and discussing health care in more general. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 3 hours ago, Cooked Crack said: Harris X is a pretty **** pollster. Kamala and all the other low digit candidates should drop out before voting actually starts. Kamala needs to exit now. I was a supporter but she's been a bad candidate. She needs to take what she's learned (if she's willing to accept constructive criticism) and think about 8 years from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 15 minutes ago, Hersh said: Kamala needs to exit now. I was a supporter but she's been a bad candidate. She needs to take what she's learned (if she's willing to accept constructive criticism) and think about 8 years from now. Yep. She's needs to avoid the embarrassment of getting crushed in her own state. At the moment it looks like it's a 4 way race: Rising Pete, Fading Lizzie, Cranky Bernie and Uncle Joe. Because he has money, Michael B. could make an impact if his strategy of starting on Super Tuesday pans out. It would pan out by him getting delegates. Still time for Pete to fall and someone else rise; though who would it be? There's still 16 candidates. Probably, need to chop that in half before Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 More folks need to follow Beto and Kamala's lead. Even though she made the December debate, no need to just spin your wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 11 minutes ago, Cooked Crack said: More folks need to follow Beto and Kamala's lead. Even though she made the December debate, no need to just spin your wheels. Smart move. Down to 15. Other people really need to take the lead and follow her. We've had one drop out each of the last 3 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Theres no doubt in my mind she saw that poll with Bloomberg ahead of her and jus said F it. I'm glad she dropped out as well, but not under those circumstances, that's jus insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 We need her focused and in the Senate. Maybe she'll use the experience in this election season sometime later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 Who's left: 7/28/17- MD Congressman John Delaney 11/6/18- Tech Entrepenuer Andrew Yang 12/31/18- MA Senator Elizabeth Warren 1/11/19- HI Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard 1/12/19- Former San Antonio Mayor/ US HUD Secretary Julian Castro 1/23/19- South Bend, IN Mayor Pete Buttigieg 1/28/19- Spiritualist/Author Marianne Williamnson 2/1/19- NJ Senator Cory Booker 2/10/19- MN Senator Amy Klobuchar 2/19/19- VT Senator Bernie Sanders 4/25/19- Former Veep Joe Biden 5/2/9- CO Senator Michael Bennet 7/19/19- Billionaire Tom Steyer 11/13/19- Former MA Governor Deval Patrick 11/24/19- Former NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg GOP 1/20/17- President Trump 4/15/19- Former MA Governor Bill Weld 8/25/19- Talk Show Host/Former U.S. Congressman- Joe Walsh Why Castro, Delaney, Gabbard, Willamnson & Bennett are still in is beyond me. Yang and Steyer are just vanity runs. Booker and Klobuchar aren't catching on with the voters. Patrick isn't going anywhere; so he's wasting his time. This race is really down to Warren, Sanders, Biden, Buttigieg and we will see after Super Tuesday, if Bloomberg's bet pays off. If TWA"s great love, Hillary got in; where would she poll? Sanders and Warren will be tied up in January/February with impeachment Senate trial. If Biden falters and Mayor Pete doesn't catch on with black voters; what happens. Could get real interesting soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 21 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said: If TWA"s get love, Hillary got in; where would she poll? First in @twa's heart! 😍 Quote Sanders and Warren will be tied up in January/February with impeachment Senate trial. If Biden falters and Mayor Pete doesn't catch on with black voters; what happens. Could get real interesting soon. If you were Biden or Buttigieg, would you consider calling for a moratorium on campaigning during the impeachment trial? All the spotlight will be on the senate anyway. Maybe it will come off as statesmen like Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 Kamala also positioning herself well for potentially being tabbed as a VP candidate or AG if a Dem wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 26 minutes ago, bearrock said: First in @twa's heart! 😍 If you were Biden or Buttigieg, would you consider calling for a moratorium on campaigning during the impeachment trial? All the spotlight will be on the senate anyway. Maybe it will come off as statesmen like no way. Keep campaigning. You know Trump will 13 hours ago, Hersh said: Kamala needs to exit now. I was a supporter but she's been a bad candidate. She needs to take what she's learned (if she's willing to accept constructive criticism) and think about 8 years from now. she knew once I was saying this, it was time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted December 3, 2019 Share Posted December 3, 2019 1 hour ago, Rdskns2000 said: This race is really down to Warren, Sanders, Biden, Buttigieg and we will see after Super Tuesday, if Bloomberg's bet pays off. If TWA"s get love, Hillary got in; where would she poll? Sanders and Warren will be tied up in January/February with impeachment Senate trial. If Biden falters and Mayor Pete doesn't catch on with black voters; what happens. Could get real interesting soon. I still think Klobuchar has a shot at this if people start looking at her as a compromise candidate and start to buy into one of her primary arguments, that she can win the Midwest back and has a track record of doing it. I read somewhere that John Kerry, and Obama during his initial run in 2008, were both polling very low in December but that was about the time they started catching momentum leading into the first states. So if there was ever a time for her message to catch on, it would be now. The path is there...there are enough people concerned about Sanders/Warren's plans, and others concerned about Biden being too old and making too many mistakes. This is about the time where she needs their supporters to start getting "really concerned" and start looking at potential alternatives. it doesn't hurt that she's already qualified for the December debate and that she's from a neighboring state to Iowa, so she should be good into January. Put another fun way, she's like a 5-7 seed in the NCAA tournament with the potential for a deep run if everything breaks right, whereas the top four are all 1-3 seeds with some flaws that don't make them shoo-in's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted December 3, 2019 Author Share Posted December 3, 2019 54 minutes ago, Forehead said: I still think Klobuchar has a shot at this if people start looking at her as a compromise candidate and start to buy into one of her primary arguments, that she can win the Midwest back and has a track record of doing it. I read somewhere that John Kerry, and Obama during his initial run in 2008, were both polling very low in December but that was about the time they started catching momentum leading into the first states. So if there was ever a time for her message to catch on, it would be now. The path is there...there are enough people concerned about Sanders/Warren's plans, and others concerned about Biden being too old and making too many mistakes. This is about the time where she needs their supporters to start getting "really concerned" and start looking at potential alternatives. it doesn't hurt that she's already qualified for the December debate and that she's from a neighboring state to Iowa, so she should be good into January. Put another fun way, she's like a 5-7 seed in the NCAA tournament with the potential for a deep run if everything breaks right, whereas the top four are all 1-3 seeds with some flaws that don't make them shoo-in's. I like her but Trump would sweep the floor with her Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 3 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said: I like her but Trump would sweep the floor with her I mean, define "sweep the floor." Klobuchar is extremely knowledgeable and has a great track record in the Senate. If "sweep the floor" means Trump behaves like a jerk and tries to talk over her while making no actual points...he's going to try that with everyone. I guess I'm still stuck hoping that voters won't think that's "funny" and an electoral majority will back the person who is civil and actually speaks to the issues, which she can do. She has to get there first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Note to everyone: campaigns tend to end when they run out of money. Not for other reasons. Why are Yang and Tulsi and Williamson still in it? They haven’t run out of money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 4 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said: I like her but Trump would sweep the floor with her I do not think that’s true (I mean, nothing I think matters, just saying) 2 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: Note to everyone: campaigns tend to end when they run out of money. Not for other reasons. Why are Yang and Tulsi and Williamson still in it? They haven’t run out of money. Yeah it’s cute to pretend there’s all these motives or strategies at play but the answer is money she wasn’t getting any because in addition to her low polling, there were plenty of rumors about a campaign staff that was a wreck and they just lost the CM so... yeah. It’s about money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 She was also burning through it because she was running a legit campaign to win, not a show campaign to gain attention for other purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 She peaked too early. im holding out for klobachar. I mean I guess I’ll vote for whoever the dems pick. But it’d be nice if it was someone I actually thought could do a great job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 Anyone who thinks Trump won the 2016 debates, is going to think he wins every debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted December 4, 2019 Share Posted December 4, 2019 1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said: Note to everyone: campaigns tend to end when they run out of money. Not for other reasons. Why are Yang and Tulsi and Williamson still in it? They haven’t run out of money. Someone needs to tell Delaney. Campaign was 10 million in debt in September. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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