The (only!) official ES all things Kirk Cousins should we shouldn't we off-season thread.

[mistertim]

6 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

You've simply been nothing but contrarian about his abilities and the prospect of re-signing him in numerous threads.

 

I've laid out plenty of facts in here.  Things that have happened in numerous SIMILAR (not exact) situations around the league in the past several years.

 

You laid out your opinion.... which coupled with a buck fifty would get us a cup of coffee at the Wawa.

 

So as Smecker would say... we'll start the ass kissing with you.

 

Ok so when you give stats they are "fact". When I do, they are "opinion"? Please.

 

Your argument has just as much that is opinion based as mine does. Everything from what Scot thinks he's worth, what other teams think he's worth, whether or not he can correct issues in his game, whether or not the issues were him or due to some other factors.....it's all nothing but opinion. So it looks like we can both get a cup of Wawa coffee.

 

If I seem "contrarian" when talking about Cousins it is probably because so many people here are 100% on board with signing him for whatever his price is no matter what. I happen to have some concerns about his game that make me not believe he is worth what he'll be asking and I bring that up as a counter-point to the "give him whatever he wants" posts. As I've said more times than I can count, I think Kirk is a good QB and I would like him to stay here. But of course you ignore all of that and go with the nice, simplistic (but admittedly well tested and classic) "you're just a hater" argument. 

[DC9]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

Ok so when you give stats they are "fact". When I do, they are "opinion"? Please.

 

No...

 

When I said "teams gave up _________ for Cutler and _______ for Bradford," those are called facts.

 

When you said "I don't think teams would give up ______ for Cousins and that is my opinion," then that is called an opinion.

[mistertim]

Just now, DC9 said:

 

No...

 

When I said "teams gave up _________ for Cutler and _______ for Bradford," those are called facts.

 

When you said "I don't think teams would give up ______ for Cousins and that is my opinion," then that is called an opinion.

 

Yes and it is your opinion that those things will have any bearing at all on what happens with Cousins.

[DC9]

 

Par for the course for me... you should know I only do this when I'm 100% right and I have that pain in the ass whose been biting at my ankles.

 

I think the last one was my brother with Art Briles and before that it was that Orakpo freak...

[actorguy1]

I posted this in the other Kirk thread as well. To paraphrase a tweet I read in the other thread, A free agent's cost is often set by a competing GM/Owner's willingness to stupidly overpay for a player who plays the same position. For many years, that was the Redskins. Stupidly overpaying for free agents and making it more difficult for other teams to sign theirs. Karma is a **** and now it's our turn to be on the other end. I am still very much for re-signing Kirk but it ain't gonna be cheap. 

[DC9]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

Yes and it is your opinion that those things will have any bearing at all on what happens with Cousins.

 

Of course they'll have bearing on what happens with Cousins.  That is how the league works. 

 

And that is why the 49ers are saying they'll give up the number 2 pick PLUS.

 

Get on board with the re-sign train.  It's that simple.

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, DC9 said:

 

Of course they'll have bearing on what happens with Cousins.  That is how the league works. 

 

And that is why the 49ers are saying they'll give up the number 2 pick PLUS.

 

Get on board with the re-sign train.  It's that simple.

 

Can you please give me a quote from a SF FO person who said they were willing to give up the #2 pick and more for Kirk Cousins?

 

And Cutler has no bearing. That was literally almost 10 years ago. I could see the Bradford thing perhaps, but I doubt everything would hinge on it.

[RemoveSnyder]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

Trenton RobinsonVerified account ‏@T_Robinson39  12h12 hours ago

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How is it even a question in people's head @KirkCousins8 is the best thing to happen to the @Redskins since I don't know when literally

[SkinsRx]

On 1/21/2017 at 1:45 PM, dckey said:

I am in agreement with you until you get here!!!  This is where I have the problem.  How many QB's have been in this position, that has never won a playoff game and become the highest paid QB?  From my understanding we will franchise him and if another team is willing to make him the highest paid qb for his body of work then i'm ok with him walking.  I like Kirk but those types of contracts are for players that will elevate a poor team around him because of how much he takes from the cap, elite top 3 type talent, and even then it is hard to build a team like that ie saints, colts, ravens, GB has possibly one of the best to ever play and barely made the playoffs and are winning because of him.  I just don't view Kirk that way, he's top 7 talent to me!!!  Where should the line be drawn I guess is where I am at with the situation.  To me I'm not going above 23mil per year 60 guaranteed, that's still top 5 money.  

 

I think Matt Ryan is the closest QB to compare Kirk to.  In NFCC game today, Joe Buck made a comment about Ryan saying that in previous seasons he used to make a lot of "head-scratching interceptions."  Remind you of someone?  Now Ryan is headed to the Superbowl and is possibly going to be the 2016 NFL MVP.  Going off-topic a little bit, but did anyone notice how similar the Falcons and Skins were this year in terms of stats?  Overall, they were #2 in offense, we were #3.  I don't remember exact defense rankings, but I believe both teams were in the 20's.  Even our scores vs. the Packers were similar!  We beat the Packers 42-24 and they beat them today 44-21.  The main difference of course was they put up a LOT more points in the red zone, which is why they're still playing and we're not.

 

Anyway, I see a lot of similarities between Ryan and Kirk.  Two very productive QBs, yet not considered elite like Rodgers or Brady.  So I think it's fair to assume Kirk will be seeking a contract similar to the 5-year extension Ryan signed in 2013.  Kirk has previously stated that he only wants his fair share of the salary cap.  Ryan's 5-year contract averages about 15% of their cap thru 2018.  Going off of next years estimated salary cap of $168 mil, 15% puts us around $25 mil/yr.  That would make Kirk the highest paid QB in the league (Luck would be #2 at $24.6 mil/yr).  Guaranteed money will probably be in the $50 mil range (Luck got $47 mil and Ryan got $42 mil guaranteed). -- http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/2017/

 

As much as I hate to say it about a QB who hasn't won a playoff game for us yet, I still think you gotta do it.  Sign him to a long-term deal.  Playing under the franchise tag will cost us $24 mil in 2017 and around $34 mil in 2018.  That would be $78 mil guaranteed money in 3 yrs.  The 49ers currently have about $17 mil more cap money than us and are desperate for a QB.  Kyle will probably do everything he can to convince his new team to go after Kirk.  Trading for the #2 overall pick this year sounds awesome, but seeing Matt Ryan today kinda gave me hope on what we can expect from Kirk in the future.  That's why I've changed my mind on signing Kirk to a long term deal.  I think we gotta keep him even if demands top 3 money.

 

 

[mistertim]

^^ It really does go to show you how much of a difference being crappy at scoring TDs in the red zone made. You're right that in other areas of offense we were somewhat similar to the Falcons. But our red zone TD efficiency was godawful and we just couldn't punch the ball into the end zone. 

 

And I don't think SF's #2 overall will do it. They'd probably need to do that plus their 2nd or another 1st next year. 

[Conn]

Posting a relative part of a post from another thread here:

 

Nobody in this building wants another rebuild, even if we have a better foundation for one now and even if Gruden is extended first and assured he'll see it through. Even if McCloughan is given the green light. Nobody. That's why we'll be signing our above average at worst QB and trying to win games like a sane franchise.

 

He's not Osweiler for christ sake, it's not going to blow up in our face--it's just going to effect how we build the roster around him. And since we've done a piss poor job of that in the first place through the last two years I have no idea why you'd rather gamble on the roster currently around Kirk improving enough to cover for no Kirk, over just gambling on Kirk and taking everything else as a bonus on top. But that's just me. We've had our two best seasons in a row since the glory days with Kirk playing pretty well. Why not just add to that formula and see what happens rather than go all Madden franchise mode on it and start over.

 

I'm a McCloughan believer but we've done nothing since he got here to make me sure that we could put together one of those stacked rosters that just needs a game managing mid-round rookie QB to pilot it to wins--certainly not sure enough to give up on a good enough QB over some cap space we rarely use wisely anyways. I like having a reason to cheer on Sundays and like being able to believably hope for a win any given week. A good QB gives you that even if he's not top 5, even if he's overpaid.

[Ron78]

On 1/7/2017 at 1:21 PM, DC9 said:

Kirk Cousins.  Handle this situation carefully.  Historically we have not done this.

 

The first chance we had to do this, we didn't re-sign a youngster named Trent Green.  He finally got to play in his last year when he threw for almost 3500, 23 TDs and 11 picks.  Green was clearly better than any QB on the roster, just like Davis was clearly the best running back... but I digress. 

 

What happened to Trent Green after he left the Redskins, who underbid him and he ended up with the Rams?

 

Remember, he was NOT good enough.  Now, I'm not stupid - I know he didn't play that season, but I think he would've played pretty well and he did for a the rest of his career.

 

 

After Trent left we decided to make a trade.  We traded for Brad Johnson.  Who went on to have a pretty good season with the Redskins.  Throwing for 4,000 yards, 24 TDs and 13 picks... We won a playoff game and were a bad snap away from making it to the NFC Championship game that year...

 

How did we reward Brad?  Well, for you youngins out there... we ACTUALLY tried to "undo" the trade.  We then signed Jeff George.... and just about everyone else the following off season. 

 

We totally ****ed up the team chemistry and went into the ****s of the NFL for the next decade plus... only occasionally finding our way out. 

 

For Brad... he again, was obviously NOT good enough to be here despite having one of the best seasons in the history of the team.  Then he linked up with a Gruden and here was the result:

 

 

 

Kirk isn't Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers.  He's also not Jason Campbell, Patrick Ramsay, Mark Brunell (who also has a ring as a FG holder), or Robert Griffin III. 

 

He's Trent Green.  He's Brad Johnson. 

 

Give him a good team around him on both sides of the ball and he's good enough to win you a Championship.  Sometimes that is good enough.

 

Sign him to a long term deal.  Show him you believe in him.  Then move on and build the rest of the team around him.

 

History shows us that we **** this situation up.  And at this stage, we can't afford to.

 

Kirk Cousins is no where near as good as Brad Johnson.  Danny was still running the franchise like fantasy football team back then, and he had some kind of man crush on Jeff George.  I agree that Trent Green is a comparable situation though.  Personally, I think Trent Green was a disappointment the rest of his career, so the comparison doesn't really help your cause.  I say sign Kirk Cousins so we can trade him to San Francisco for draft picks.  Kirk will never win the big one.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

6 hours ago, Ron78 said:

 

Kirk will never win the big one.

 

At this point, I would be elated if a QB could take us to the conference championship game. Five years into his career, Cousins compares comparably to Matt Ryan. Why is it ridiculous to think he could do what Ryan did this year in the near future? 

[DC9]

Just now, mistertim said:

 

Can you please give me a quote from a SF FO person who said they were willing to give up the #2 pick and more for Kirk Cousins?

 

And Cutler has no bearing. That was literally almost 10 years ago. I could see the Bradford thing perhaps, but I doubt everything would hinge on it.

 

Oh you know darn good and well what is out there right now.

 

When San Fran hires a front office person I'll be sure to get a quote from them... just for you. 

 

It would be amazing if you were that thorough in researching for your own opinion.

Just now, TD_washingtonredskins said:

 

At this point, I would be elated if a QB could take us to the conference championship game. Five years into his career, Cousins compares comparably to Matt Ryan. Why is it ridiculous to think he could do what Ryan did this year in the near future? 

 

Yeah, that is the game changer for me.

Just now, Ron78 said:

 

Kirk Cousins is no where near as good as Brad Johnson.  Danny was still running the franchise like fantasy football team back then, and he had some kind of man crush on Jeff George.  I agree that Trent Green is a comparable situation though.  Personally, I think Trent Green was a disappointment the rest of his career, so the comparison doesn't really help your cause.  I say sign Kirk Cousins so we can trade him to San Francisco for draft picks.  Kirk will never win the big one.

 

Actually Danny had just bought the team and didn't really make any changes at all in Brad Johnson's first (and only good) year here.

 

It was the next year that was shenanigans.

[DC9]

 

 

 

I guess we shouldn't use trades like this where you trade proven comodities for assetts to obtain unknown players...

 

Cause technically we very well could hit on all of them.  Cleveland has just been doing it wrong.

[TheBlueIndian]

Right now KC might be Tony Oh NO , with the back breaking picks and stuff, but he has proven that he will continue to get better.

 

The sad thing is that in some alternate universe a faction of our fanbase would rather have the doofus from Dallas. Makes no sense to me. We have a proven commodity in KC who is in his prime. Draft picks are a huge gamble and not reasonable compensation. Seriously we have some major holes in the bucket and huge question marks all over the roster. How long before Trent Williams starts to decline or gets booted for a season ?

 

Redskins in a nutshell.....the last 20 or so years......

Day one - We  walk down the hall, and open a door at the end ....suddenly some guy busts us on the head with a hammer.

Day two - We  walk down the hall, and open a door at the end ....suddenly some guy busts us on the head with a hammer

Day three - We  walk down the hall, and open a door at the end ....suddenly some guy busts us on the head with a hammer

Day four - We  walk down the hall, and open a door at the end ....The guy with the hammer isn't there....so we go looking for him... INSANITY

 

[S.T.real,lights,out]

Couldn't agree more. 

Kirk is the guy and he's only going to continue to get better. If the Falcons gave up on Matt Ryan when he was struggling early they wouldn't be where they are today. Could say the same about the Giants. It take time to become a star at the QB position. In just two years of starting Kirk is well on his way to being that.

 

Do u think the Chargers wished the kept Brees? I would be willing to bet they did. 

 

But yet we have people that are just forgetting everything we have went through overt the last 20+ years. "Trade Kirk to the 49ers for two first round picks...then send those picks to NE for Jimmy G."

 

   

[Tarpon75]

Give Kirk a running game and backs that can do anything near what Atlanta's can and this offense would be unstoppable.Most of the red zone problems would be fixed with even a consistently average running game.              I believe it would set this team back years if they allow Kirk to get away.                          I saw it  posted earlier in this thread that Brad Johnson was better than Cousins is and that is just not true.Brad was however a good QB and the team suffered the consequences when they let him go. I hope the Redskins find a way to keep Kirk in town.

[TheGreek1973]

I seriously can't believe people are still on the fence and even against KC.  The most important position in football and one that needs continuity, some people want to role the dice once again after this team suffering for decades at this position.  I just don't know what to say anymore.

 

its funny how DC9 posted what the Browns "got" for trading out of that 6th pick instead of getting Julio Jones.  Remember what we got for trading out of our pick and didn't pick JJ Watt?  Kerrigan and Gardner.  Now Kerrigan is a decent player, but how much better would our D be right now with JJ Watt?

 

The QB position is infinite more important, and for some to say we will find a replacement if Cousins "costs" too much is mind boggling.  KC will only get better.  When you have a guy that lives and breaths football, with decent skills, he will get better.  Look at his numbers now.  If he gets slightly better we are talking about a QB that drops 30 TDs 13 INTs and at least 4700 yards on average on the opposition, and he only 28.  Where the hell we are going to find a QB with this type of production?  And to think the capital we spend to get that type of production in 2012 that didn't pen out, imagine now if this team had 3 number one picks on it and a 2nd round pick. 

 

I just don't get some of you.  Get this guy signed Scott, learn from your mistake last year and do the right thing.

 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

I'm a McCloughan believer but we've done nothing since he got here to make me sure that we could put together one of those stacked rosters that just needs a game managing mid-round rookie QB to pilot it to wins--certainly not sure enough to give up on a good enough QB over some cap space we rarely use wisely anyways. I like having a reason to cheer on Sundays and like being able to believably hope for a win any given week. A good QB gives you that even if he's not top 5, even if he's overpaid.

 

Craig Hoffman on 106.7 summed it well for me yesterday -- saying a variation of what I've been saying this weekend -- he believes in Scot's ability to build up this roster.  He has proven that credential wise in his career.  He doesn't believe in Scot's ability or ANY GMs ability to find a franchise QB -- because a franchise finding GM doesn't exist.    It's not impossible to find a franchise QB but you are much more likely to fail in that effort than succeed and that dance is likely going to happen over many years.  

 

A GM who specializes in finding a franchise QB is a fantasy.   And this is coming from me who argued on behalf of Scot with some of the rabid anti-Scot people on the board who accuse him of being a poor evaluator of Qbs citing him passing over Aaron Rodgers and also signing Matt Flynn.   My point to them was its an unfair hit.  Scot did ultimately help find a franchise guy in Russell Wilson but to attack Scot for having a hit and miss record on QB is silly because is there is no such GM who nails it on QB without fail.   

 

That's why I am stuck on this point.  It's not about whether Kirk is better than this guy or that guy and the various gripes (most of which I disagree with) people have with him.  IMO the operative point is what's plan B?   How do the Redskins march on without him?  Do you guys feel confident that we won't miss a beat with McCoy or Sudfeld or some guy from this draft?  Because IMO that's the relevant point.    

 

For all this its about Jay's system makes the player.  Colt in the same system had a 46 QBR and 36 QBR.  Kirk was just about double Colt's at 72.    IMO this is the debate in play.   It's not about Kirk in a vacuum.    It's about we feel pretty comfortable with plan B so what's the big deal -- we take the money that would go to Kirk, add a few players and we won't skip a beat.  Or Plan B looks like crap and we don't want to go 5-11.

[Going Commando]

9 hours ago, mistertim said:

^^ It really does go to show you how much of a difference being crappy at scoring TDs in the red zone made. You're right that in other areas of offense we were somewhat similar to the Falcons. But our red zone TD efficiency was godawful and we just couldn't punch the ball into the end zone. 

It's because we can't run the ball consistently.  Especially not against a loaded box like you face in first and goal situations.  The interior of our offensive line is not as good as Atlanta's, and our RBs are nowhere near as good either.  They have much more team speed and creativity at their skill positions, which helps you win match ups and salvage broken plays.

 

Bottom line, to be consistent in the red zone, you have to be able to run the ball.  You have to make a defense honor that aspect of your offense and be able to punish them for mistakes in lane integrity and tackling.  We'll get better at scoring in the red zone if we get better blocking up front and better running backs.  It's important that we find a mainstay at center like Atlanta did.  It's really hard to get consistently good run blocking when you're going to your third string center every season.

[DC9]

Just now, Skinsinparadise said:

 

For all this its about Jay's system guys.  Colt in the same system had a 46 QBR and 36 QBR.  Kirk was just about double Colt's at 72.    IMO this is the debate in play.   It's not about Kirk in a vacuum.    It's about we feel pretty comfortable with plan B so what's the big deal -- we take the money that would go to Kirk, add a few players and we won't skip a beat.  Or Plan B looks like crap and we don't want to go 5-11.

 

The Vikings are a pretty good example of what a team looks like who have a pretty decent supporting cast and a very good defense but no franchise QB (as I said above).  I also think Bridgewater is supremely overrated and he never should've made the Pro Bowl ahead of Cousins last year, but I digress.  Also look at those Redskins teams with Jason Campbell, namely the 2007 squad.  Pretty good, maybe above average, but never threatening anyone of note.

 

Was listening to a really interesting interview driving up to VA on Friday morning on North Carolina radio.  It was with Steve Logan, who coached Matt Ryan at Boston College and has had some NFL coaching experience as well.  Anywho... he picked the Patriots and the Packers to win, and his reasoning was "The Falcons have the 28th ranked defense in the NFL."  Even citing the fact that the Falcons have the number 1 offense, he said defense wins you championships.  He then said "If you give me Matt Ryan and a mediocre offense and the Texans defense, I will win you a Super Bowl."  For me, that's almost exactly how those Seahawks teams were constructed save for Marshawn Lynch.  Sure, Wilson can extend plays and be creative, but ultimately if you have a good QB and a good defense, then anything can happen.  Heck... look at the current Patriots roster... they have some dude named Chris Hogan who played LAX as their number 1 weapon right now.  Defense is smothering.

 

I think Cousins might need one or two more seasons of talent around him on offense before he's ready to be "the guy who shepards youngins to greatness," like the other franchise QBs that we see.  Heck, for all we know he could be ready now it's just difficult with guys like Jackson in the huddle.... but I think that's the end game goal.  Get a great defense put together and then let Kirk lead it.  Have a nasty ****ing defense hold the score low and give that QB plenty of chances to get a drive together.

[DC9]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Ron78 said:

 

Kirk Cousins is no where near as good as Brad Johnson.  Danny was still running the franchise like fantasy football team back then, and he had some kind of man crush on Jeff George.  I agree that Trent Green is a comparable situation though.  Personally, I think Trent Green was a disappointment the rest of his career, so the comparison doesn't really help your cause.  I say sign Kirk Cousins so we can trade him to San Francisco for draft picks.  Kirk will never win the big one.

 

Kirk Cousins crushes Brad Johnson on most metrics.  Not once in his career did Johnson match Kirk's QB rating, completion rate, yards.  And I am talking comparing Brad's career year, his best year compared to Kirk's last 2 seasons.  If you look at Brad's total career its almost comical to compare the two -- Kirk eats him for lunch, breakfast and dinner.  But I am glad this was brought up.  Kirk is clearly better than Brad Johnson.  And letting Brad go is lamented till this day as one of the biggest signs of Danny's mismanagement.    The Kirk situation could potentially be a lot worse.