TheGreek1973 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 11 hours ago, Hal2856 said: Maybe it was the tie today, and the fact that we haven't had a tie since Norv, but the more this season goes on the more I draw parallels from the way the team performs under Gruden to the way they performed under Norv: Bone headed coaching lapses, bad, bad defense, offense that can rack up yards but with no killer instinct, questionable penalties and basically always grasping a loss from the mouth of victory. I am truly curious what everyone else thinks on this. Anyone else see similarities? Is Gruden better? I'm just not sure. I am personally rooting for better. He has turned the team around quicker but I still wonder if that's front office only and The Redskins are winning despite Gruden as they did when Norv finally had some winning seasons. Would you be asking this question if Hopkins makes the chip shot FG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Just now, Cliffmark1 said: I think you keep Kirk and tell the coaching staff bye. Allow gmsm to pick a coach and we are a legit contender. I think it's crazy to assume that our coaching is a net negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Norv Turner is an example of why the argument for stability is BS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heisenberg Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 13 minutes ago, Cliffmark1 said: I think you keep Kirk and tell the coaching staff bye. Allow gmsm to pick a coach and we are a legit contender. Lol didn't Scot pick Mike Singletary in San Fran? Ridiculous at this point to give up on the coaching staff. I could maybe see replacing the defensive coordinator but barring a complete disaster in the second half of the season you stay the course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 1 minute ago, Darth Tater said: Norv Turner is an example of why the argument for stability is BS. Stability for stability's sake, sure. But Gruden's team has gone from bad in 2014, to average in 2015, and is still hovering around average in 2016 (might be slightly improved over 2015). I'm not sure you look at that trend and decide to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NattyBo Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Gruden is also without a doubt one of the top offensive minds in football in an offensively minded league. He had the guts to put his job on the line to play Kirk rather than RG3 last season. He also seems to have the respect of the players as well as a good rapport with them. Getting rid of him would be nuts. He still has room to grow and learn in terms of clock management, etc, and hopefully he will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paloosa Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 No this not Norv 2.0. But it is the same old crap that continues to go wrong with this team no matter who coaches them or who the players are. Lack of discipline and lack of focus, 15 Penalties says it all. But the Refs missed calls especially a blatant face mask. Anytime a players head turns because someone grabs a face mask that is an automatic 15 yards. You can't tell me that no ref could see that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Nervous Norvous? Maybe there is a little something there. Under the pressure of late game situations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 27 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: Stability for stability's sake, sure. But Gruden's team has gone from bad in 2014, to average in 2015, and is still hovering around average in 2016 (might be slightly improved over 2015). I'm not sure you look at that trend and decide to move on. What's the alternative? Last I checked Bill Bellicheck isn't walking through that door and every other coach in the league is more or less a product of their rosters/front office/organizational structure. You think Mike Tomlin or Pete Carroll win games in Cleveland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSSkinz Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I don't get why anyone would want to get rid of Jay, our offense is a hair away from bein nasty and Jay is a big reason. We haven't seen an offense like this in Washington in a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koolblue13 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Honestly, I don't know what to think. Watching this offense makes me feel like someone made me mashed potatoes, but didn't use anything but potatoes and water, while in a really nicely stocked pantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBass1724 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 I've been saying for weeks on twitter and with my friends that this is like a Norv era team. We can move the ball and score some points, but our defense can't get off the field on 3rd down and *usually* at the end of a game, we can't get the ball back because we can't stop the other team. I'm not a McVay hater by any means, but his playcalling is suspect at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinC Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 7 hours ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said: I don't know about Norval 2.0, but having a HC that didn't know you could have tied games in the NFL is Jim Zorn cringeworthy embarrassingly bad. Hail. He knew games could end in a tie. What he was saying was that he didn't think it would happen, let alone twice in two weeks. It was a strange way he phrased it but if you watch the press conference his meaning is clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: Eh - that happens whenever you hire a coach from another team. To me, that isn't on Norv for bringing players and coaches that he trusts. If the Redskin/Cowboy thing was an issue, then the owner shouldn't have hired this particular coach. While that's true, he was the 'face' of the franchise at the time, taking over for Gibbs. And it seemed his first move was to remove any stench of Gibbs, as if doing so would tarnish his legacy. Was there a competition for spots? nah, just a lineup of jobs being given to former Cowboys. I tried to have hope because we went from 3 wins to 6 to 9, but after that 9-7 season I was just immensely ready for him to go.Then 8-7-1, I was so done with him. Its like he (Norv) was the complete opposite of Jay. Norv never took the blame for anything. It was "well ya see what had happened was" and "if this and this and this". Jay has taken blame for stuff, supported his players, and actually changed (grown) as a coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal2856 Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Warhead36 said: What's the alternative? Last I checked Bill Bellicheck isn't walking through that door and every other coach in the league is more or less a product of their rosters/front office/organizational structure. You think Mike Tomlin or Pete Carroll win games in Cleveland? Well... To be fair... Belicheck didn't win in Celeveland... 54 minutes ago, jschuck12001 said: I don't get why anyone would want to get rid of Jay, our offense is a hair away from bein nasty and Jay is a big reason. We haven't seen offense like this in Washington is a long time. I'm not saying get rid of him... Just nervous that I see some really stark similarities between the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhead36 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 As far as the penalty problem goes, that's not coaching, that's a league wide issue right now. I think the Raiders had like 23 penalties yesterday. The entire NFL is a flagfest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBass1724 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 36 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said: While that's true, he was the 'face' of the franchise at the time, taking over for Gibbs. Petibon replaced Gibbs. Norv replaced Petibon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 25 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said: While that's true, he was the 'face' of the franchise at the time, taking over for Gibbs. And it seemed his first move was to remove any stench of Gibbs, as if doing so would tarnish his legacy. Was there a competition for spots? nah, just a lineup of jobs being given to former Cowboys. I tried to have hope because we went from 3 wins to 6 to 9, but after that 9-7 season I was just immensely ready for him to go.Then 8-7-1, I was so done with him. Its like he (Norv) was the complete opposite of Jay. Norv never took the blame for anything. It was "well ya see what had happened was" and "if this and this and this". Jay has taken blame for stuff, supported his players, and actually changed (grown) as a coach. I think he gets a bad rap, but think we're in better shape with Jay. The NFL isn't linear (especially in the infancy of FA) so Turner's 3-13 to 10-6 between 1994 and 1999 was pretty impressive to see. We had one dip in 1998, but other than that improved or stayed the same each year with him as coach. I don't truly believe we would have ever gotten anywhere special with him, but he took a gutted and old roster and transformed it into a viable, middle-tier team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, CBass1724 said: Petibon replaced Gibbs. Norv replaced Petibon. Yeah, but Petibon wasn't a full search hire. He took over in like March. The free agency and most of the draft scouting was pretty much already done. For Norv's entire time here I wished he'd hire Richie, but he seemed unwilling to hire a good DC. Norv was the guy who got rid of everything Gibbs. While I don't think many here would have had a problem had we kept Richie, when he was fired everybody (most of us) saw that next guy as Gibbs's replacement. But you're right I should hav inserted RIchie into that comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: Stability for stability's sake, sure. But Gruden's team has gone from bad in 2014, to average in 2015, and is still hovering around average in 2016 (might be slightly improved over 2015). I'm not sure you look at that trend and decide to move on. Stability does not make you good, it is an outcome of being good. If the Redskins screw the pooch ala Shanahan, it is time to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 7 minutes ago, Darth Tater said: Stability does not make you good, it is an outcome of being good. If the Redskins screw the pooch ala Shanahan, it is time to move on. I'm not really arguing that stability makes you good. I'm saying that I've seen nothing from Gruden that would suggest he can't succeed. He's improved each year and seems to do a great job motivating the players and establishing his offense. I would also argue that, even though stability doesn't make you good, instability can usually help in making you bad. We have spent 3 years now acquiring players to fit what Gruden does...that, more than anything else, is what plagued us in Snyder's earliest seasons. Having Norv players who had to execute Marty's scheme...then Marty players who had to execute Spurrier's scheme...then Spurrier players who had to execute Gibbs' scheme...then Gibbs player who had to execute Zorn's scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said: I'm not really arguing that stability makes you good. I'm saying that I've seen nothing from Gruden that would suggest he can't succeed. He's improved each year and seems to do a great job motivating the players and establishing his offense. I would also argue that, even though stability doesn't make you good, instability can usually help in making you bad. We have spent 3 years now acquiring players to fit what Gruden does...that, more than anything else, is what plagued us in Snyder's earliest seasons. Having Norv players who had to execute Marty's scheme...then Marty players who had to execute Spurrier's scheme...then Spurrier players who had to execute Gibbs' scheme...then Gibbs player who had to execute Zorn's scheme. Then your original choice to quote me makes no sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 5 minutes ago, Darth Tater said: Then your original choice to quote me makes no sense. You said that Norv Turner's tenure here shows that the stability argument is BS. All I'm saying is that one guy not being worthy of patience doesn't disprove that there are benefits to stability. Unless you KNOW the coach you have is the wrong guy, it's better to stay the course than to change things. There is nothing indicating after 2.5 seasons that Gruden isn't the guy to take us to the next level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Darth Tater said: Stability does not make you good, it is an outcome of being good. If the Redskins screw the pooch ala Shanahan, it is time to move on. Stability for stability sake does not make you good. But instability will absolutely make you not good. Change just for change sake makes no sense. You have to be patient enough to give it a chance. While we are in season 3 with Jay, let's be honest, this is really year 2 of Scot and Jay. You need to have those two positions working together. They clearly work together very well. Scot understands what kind of players Jay wants and has done a good job of starting filling the roster with those guys. When was the last time that with us being 10 pts down in the 4th Q you thought, we still have a chance here! It's been at least 15 yrs. Yet here we are. The team is still very much a work in progress. Jay has gotten better as a coach each year. Also, the players paly their ass off for him. In today's football that is so important. The guys have to want to play for the coach. They never give up. Lot's of guys with great passion and pride. We just need to finish filling the holes. I bet D gets a solid look in terms of talent next year. Just a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hal2856 Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 3 hours ago, TheGreek1973 said: Would you be asking this question if Hopkins makes the chip shot FG? Yeah. To be honest I've been talking about with some friends for a fo weeks and I am not a huge Gruden fan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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