Pass First, Run Second

[Suffolk_Skins]

2 hours ago, Califan007 said:

Absolutely my thought as well...

We have done this before. Jackson big penalty on Sunday and Doctson play call against Dallas. In fact a lot of our shots deep are on first down. Need to get Jones rolling first couple of possessions then take a shot. Sean does like to do this.

[Darth Tater]

When 11 ants could score against your defense, you have to make sure you don't let the other guys get on offense too often.

[repo_4]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Two weeks ago "run the damn ball"

This week "throw the damn ball"

I wonder where we'll be in two weeks.

"Let the runner throw the damn ball!"

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

"Run the football!" ~ Me for the last 35 years.

I'm a 3 yards and a cloud of dust kind of guy myself.

We have a 230lbs running back with 4.4 speed.

Run him constantly and every once in a while, PA DJax or Jamison deep when they drop the safeties.

Just now, Suffolk_Skins said:

We have done this before. Jackson big penalty on Sunday and Doctson play call against Dallas. In fact a lot of our shots deep are on first down. Need to get Jones rolling first couple of possessions then take a shot. Sean does like to do this.

Yep. Build a rhythm. Get the flow going on offense. We will score points like that early and safely. Run and quick rhythmic passes.

By the second half, they have to adjust and respect the short/intermediate field. Then you're firing daggers deep and humiliting them.

[illone]

The key is to self scout and go against your own tendencies which is what other teams are being coached to look for...

i.e. Skins passing on first down 70% of the time, so therefore expect pass...  Time to call some running plays.

No matter what your strength is you absolutely have to maintain balance because it opens up your strength to be more effective.

[skins island connection]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Two weeks ago "run the damn ball"

This week "throw the damn ball"

I wonder where we'll be in two weeks.

Preparing for the Lions. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

You must've been so excited to see this thread. 

I've been a big proponent of running an uptempo/4WR offense with Kirk.  However, I think it's important for us right now to really commit to the ground game.  With the young beef up front, we should make every effort to give them/MJones some much needed confidence.  To me, this also means running into an 8 man box on occasion.  We have no respect at the LOS right now, and I think we need to embrace a more physical style.  

I think our balance has been much improved the last two games.  I hope it continues.

Interesting factoid: Matt Jones had 11 rushes (I think, maybe 12), through the first 3 quarters. Similar with the Giants game. 

Our balance is better, but we're still pass-heavy early, and then run to close out games.  I'm completely fine with this.  As long as we're not banging out head against the wall on first down repeatably, I'm ok. 

It is ok to run into the occational 8-man box.  Good running teams can do that.  But, if you have an 8 man box, and Reed, DJax, Crowder, V. Davis, Garcon, Niles, etc., a quick little slip-screen to an outside guy can net BIG yards.  One thing I don't think that we've taken advantage of enough this year is going 3 TE, 1 WE, 1 RB, and then showing run, and going pass. Doesn't even have to be off of PA.  You have so many TEs on this team that can catch, if you do it a few times, even when we go "heavy" you're going to see teams less included to stack the box.  Which should help the running game.

The way this team is built, we are a "pass to set up the run" type of team.  Which is fine.  I just think you've got to know what you are, do both well, and punish teams for selling out in either direction.  

[Koolblue13]

That's the damn formation I've been dying to see all offseason. It's freaking unstoppable and we can run and pass well out of it.

[Bishop Hammer]

Man the OP made me realize Gruden and McVey are a slightly more component version of Steve "Spurious".  At least they know to protect the QB and you have to run occasionally.

[diehardskinsfan]

In my opinion, we are way too predictable when Kirk is in the shotgun. Our running game is much more effective when Kirk is under center and we seem to move the football down field more consistently. I would like to see more plays designed to get Kirk moving around a bit too. Our season really started to change last year when Kirk started tucking em down and making them account for him running for first downs and touchdowns. If he is coached to run at times, maybe we win the Steelers game and our D stays off the field.  Httr

[RandyHolt]

It's more than.... run moar or pass moar = glorious victory.

In no particular order.... we need to take what the defense gives us. A corner way off, take the gift yards - make em move up and then boom. Reed in single coverage vs a LB or Strong inside the 10.... even you know that one.  But more importantly, Jay needs to trust Kirk and let him audible to fully take advantage of what they give us... something i suspect he only trusts Kirk in small doses, like inside the 10 with Doctson in the game.

We also have to keep the opposition guessing, be unpredictable, if we ran a ton last week, you know a DC prepared for that. Work him. Exploit that injured DB, or guy in off the street. Work a favorable matchup over and over, make the DC adjust for once.

[Insert annual complaint] - I think all Ds remain very vulnerable to hurry up. They panic and go prevent / base D / no subs / call TO.  Who year after year is the best D vs hurry up - why are there no stats on that? I bet no team is good at stopping it. Jay clearly does not want to relinquish control of a single play... and presume of calling timeouts, his favorite (struggle). Maybe he should for a series or 2 a game.

We do keep good tempo overall, but why not go foot on the neck completely, just for a series, once a year. Or start a game with 10 scripted plays where McVay from the safety of a quiet booth does not need to communicate with the QB every damn play. He and Cousins should be on the same page from a week of prep.

But make no mistake, the strength of our team is passing, so we should be able to run vs paranoid pass D's where they are in cover 3 etc, and keep the peace and end the annual discussion of not running enough. Without the turnovers our D grabbed the last 2 games, was our running the key to victory... I don't think so.  We would have lost. Irony.... is that cleveland running so much led to their backups in the game, who fumbled the bumpkin for us.

[Warhead36]

Run/pass balance is kind of a weird stat. In order to run the ball a lot you actually have to be a pretty good passing team too to sustain drives, unless you want to just literally run run pass which doesn't work unless you have a dominant RB/OL which we don't have. You also have to run well on 1st down. If you're only getting 1-2 on 1st down you kind of have to throw on 2nd and then likely throw again on 3rd unless you pick up the 1st on 2nd down. It all works together. That's why I never like at run/pass ratio and go crazy, there are a lot of in game factors that go into it.

Mathematically, it makes more sense to pass first and pass often. Think about it like this: if the average pass play gets you 5 yards, and the average run play gets you 3, why wouldn't you throw more? That doesn't even factor in that we're a much better passing team than running team for a variety of reasons. Obviously you want to run it more on certain situations(goal line, short yardage, clock kill, etc.).

 

[Brokenstriker]

It really comes down to doing what you do well and limiting what they do well.  You can win with a pass heavy offense just like you can with a run heavy offense ... but you need to be good at different things depending on which you choose.  Success comes in ways.  For an offense ... score a TD every time you get the ball usually works ... realistically though you want to score with as many possessions as possible, when don't score you want to put the other team as deep in their own zone as possible and leave them as little time to do something as possible.  If you can't maintain drives because you have an all or nothing running or passing attack ... your chances of winning goes down steeply.  RGIII is a perfect example of this type of passing attack ... his signature drive is 3 and out, with the occasional and comparatively rare 'big' pass play to get close enough to stumble in for a TD or kick a FG.  A running attack that can't line up and count on getting 3 yards ... not 3 yd/carry ... but 3 yards each carry most of the time is going to have a hard time winning with a run heavy attack.  Every Redskins team since Stephen Davis left the skins has had that problem.  Interestingly ... Evan Royster was the most effective back when it came to getting positive yards but he wasn't flashy enough.  (yeah I know ... but look at the games he started at RB as opposed to the ones he was pushed into 3rd pass protection before you go all 'Royster sucked' ... don't just look at average ... look at standard deviation).

We can win with pass heavy and pass first.  The passing attack has a high completion percentage (move the chains), a good look long first check down if necessary QB, and this will all make the running attack better if done wisely.  Even without a killer running game if you keep runs in the attack play action can still be a killer if you do PA on the obvious run downs and can complete the pass with some degree of reliability for the necessary yards to keep the drive alive.

Biggest problem we have on offense ... is our defense.

[LaxBuddy21]

For all the complaining we do about run versus pass, we have been moving the ball either way in all 4 games. I don't think you have to establish anything. I think you need to take what the defense gives you and be a threat to do both on any given play. Like others have said, be unpredictable especially in the redzone. Our run/pass mix was not the issue in any of our games. Our defense has been the issue and being predictable in the red zone. 

[SWFLSkins]

On 10/4/2016 at 11:24 AM, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

You must've been so excited to see this thread. 

I've been a big proponent of running an uptempo/4WR offense with Kirk.  However, I think it's important for us right now to really commit to the ground game.  With the young beef up front, we should make every effort to give them/MJones some much needed confidence.  To me, this also means running into an 8 man box on occasion.  We have no respect at the LOS right now, and I think we need to embrace a more physical style.  

I think our balance has been much improved the last two games.  I hope it continues.

VOR is right most the time man, I think yes you have to stick with the run, but you have to change it up to catch them sleeping. 

[mossomo]

On 10/4/2016 at 5:11 AM, SWFLSkins said:

 

But I would like to see us do some Gibbs calls, throw deep when they are expecting run on first down, run on 2nd down, then throw. We seem so predictable at times, and when we are not it usually works. 

 

To an extent to establish the run you have to force it, and be patient with it. But you can also supplement the run with screens, sweeps and etc. 

The run is coming together.  It's nice to see D's tired in the 4th with running plays being made to burn the clock.

[NoVaSkins21]

One thing that may be related is all of this passing on 3rd and 1 and getting NOTHING.  The OL may not be the best but Gruden and McVey need to have more faith in them to stop with this passing on the money down.  They could've salted the game away a lot sooner than they did by just picking up all the 3rd and 1s today by running the ball.  In addition, they become very predictable by showing their hand by passing the ball on 3rd and1 all the time.  

[NeverSurrender]

I like the calls.. If I was an opposing coordinator trying to scheme against us I would be forced to cover the entire field.  I think that makes us very unpredictable.

[Warhead36]

1 hour ago, SAli457180 said:

One thing that may be related is all of this passing on 3rd and 1 and getting NOTHING.  The OL may not be the best but Gruden and McVey need to have more faith in them to stop with this passing on the money down.  They could've salted the game away a lot sooner than they did by just picking up all the 3rd and 1s today by running the ball.  In addition, they become very predictable by showing their hand by passing the ball on 3rd and1 all the time.  

But the receivers were open. If Cousins hits those guys which he should then we're praising the coaches for being bold and aggressive and passing on obvious run downs.

Tht 3rd and 6 paly in particular...Jax had his man beat. Should have been a game icing TD.

[NoVaSkins21]

29 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

But the receivers were open. If Cousins hits those guys which he should then we're praising the coaches for being bold and aggressive and passing on obvious run downs.

Tht 3rd and 6 paly in particular...Jax had his man beat. Should have been a game icing TD.

Yes, the WRs were open, but Cousins isn't polished enough yet to hit those guys in stride.  That's why the better call is to go with run and chew up clock rather than give the ball back to the opposing offense.