Rawstory: Dash cam video shows unarmed black man with hands in air before Tulsa police shoot him dead

[Ray-Ban Dan]

6 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

You can't be serious. Not in this thread, much like the people you called idiots, is a decent chunk of our population that believes none of these shootings are unjustified. So I'll ask you again, are they idiots too? 

I don't know of anyone like that, myself. Haven't heard one single person say that the OK shooting was justified. Or the one in SC, where the cop killed the guy that was running away from him. 

Of course there are unjustified police shootings. But, for the most part, the ones that seem to garner the most attention ,nationally, are usually found to be justified, once all the facts are out.

[Gamebreaker]

3 minutes ago, Ray-Ban Dan said:

I don't know of anyone like that, myself. Haven't heard one single person say that the OK shooting was justified. Or the one in SC, where the cop killed the guy that was running away from him. 

What does that have to do with my question? Are you saying that no one in this country thinks all of these shootings are justified? Just look at videos of citizens at a Trump rally if you doubt it. Now I'll ask for a third time, are they idiots too? 

[grego]

10 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

What does that have to do with my question? Are you saying that no one in this country thinks all of these shootings are justified? Just look at videos of citizens at a Trump rally if you doubt it. Now I'll ask for a third time, are they idiots too? 

personally, I think if someone thinks every police shooting is justified, they are an idiot (I don't know of anyone like that, but I'm sure someone may believe that). and anyone who believes 'hands up, don't shoot' is a thing, they are idiots too.

[Ray-Ban Dan]

20 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

What does that have to do with my question? Are you saying that no one in this country thinks all of these shootings are justified? Just look at videos of citizens at a Trump rally if you doubt it. Now I'll ask for a third time, are they idiots too? 

You have any proof of this? I mean, you can think all Trump supporters (just for the record, I'm not one of them) are racist all you want. But that doesn't make it true.

Besides, I was giving you my personal experiences with discussions I've had about police shootings.  Like I said, not even once have I heard someone say the OK or SC shootings, were justified. 

But nice job trying to deflect attention away from the ridiculous agenda the BLM movement has been pushing the past few years.

[Popeman38]

40 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

What is the point of this post? I said it looks justified.

 I was posting the picture to add the visualization to what you were saying. Calm down...

[Gamebreaker]

38 minutes ago, Ray-Ban Dan said:

You have any proof of this? I mean, you can think all Trump supporters (just for the record, I'm not one of them) are racist all you want. But that doesn't make it true.

Besides, I was giving you my personal experiences with discussions I've had about police shootings.  Like I said, not even once have I heard someone say the OK or SC shootings, were justified. 

But nice job trying to deflect attention away from the ridiculous agenda the BLM movement has been pushing the past few years.

I'm deflecting? I asked you a direct question three times and you're bull****ting on the answer. The truth of the matter is you have no problem calling black Americans idiots multiple times in this thread but can't answer yes or no about white Americans who think all police shootings of black men are justified. Who here has the agenda? 

[Ray-Ban Dan]

39 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

I'm deflecting? I asked you a direct question three times and you're bull****ting on the answer. The truth of the matter is you have no problem calling black Americans idiots multiple times in this thread but can't answer yes or no about white Americans who think all police shootings of black men are justified. Who here has the agenda? 

I answered your question. It's not my problem the answer didn't suit you. I specifically said "I" had never heard or read anyone say that ALL killings by police were justified. I then said: "of course all of the killings AREN'T justified". And I even gave you two examples where they were not. You're the one that labeled all Trump supporters (which you incorrectly assumed I was) racists, as a feeble attempt to deflect attention away from the conversation we were having about the myth of "hands up, don't shoot", that the BLM movement has erroneously been pushing for over two years now.

Lastly, I'm not calling ALL black Americans idiots. If you had read what I posted earlier, regarding the CA shooting, it said that the crowd of supporters weren't all black. Just as they weren't in the Charlotte protests, etc I'm calling all of the people that still believe "hands up, don't shoot" ever existed, idiots (MO, CA). It's not that difficult, man.

[Corcaigh]

[LD0506]

Can I vote? "All shootings are justified" = idiot, embarrassing willful idiot that shames us all.

As usual this is only a tiny fraction of the populace and the huge % in the middle sees riots and stops giving one large ****. THAT'S a problem

"Hands up don't shoot"? Why would I care? It's caught on, let 'em use it, there's a truth at the core of it and IMO, most importantly, it isn't getting anyone killed.

And don't anyone even dare try to blame that for officer deaths, that is crass beyond belief. People that choose that might try to rationalize their behavior that way, but they are just ignorant a-holes, and those come in all colors and flavors.

 

[grego]

2 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

Can I vote? "All shootings are justified" = idiot, embarrassing willful idiot that shames us all.

As usual this is only a tiny fraction of the populace and the huge % in the middle sees riots and stops giving one large ****. THAT'S a problem

"Hands up don't shoot"? Why would I care? It's caught on, let 'em use it, there's a truth at the core of it and IMO, most importantly, it isn't getting anyone killed.

And don't anyone even dare try to blame that for officer deaths, that is crass beyond belief. People that choose that might try to rationalize their behavior that way, but they are just ignorant a-holes, and those come in all colors and flavors.

 

there are definitely people who believe that 'hands up' happened and don't accept the findings. and I'm sure there are people who accept that it didn't happen, but repeat it anyway because its seen as furthering a cause. (not unlke the OJ verdict- some believed he didn't do it, some knew he did, but celebrated his acquittal anyway because of past injustices)

I do think its potentially dangerous to push an emotionally charged narrative that's not true. theres already so much emotion concerning this issue, pushing this slogan is not helping.  people are saying 'hands up don't shoot' at protests for a police shooting that already appears to be completely justified.

that's not good.

[Gamebreaker]

43 minutes ago, Ray-Ban Dan said:

I answered your question. It's not my problem the answer didn't suit you. I specifically said "I" had never heard or read anyone say that ALL killings by police were justified. I then said: "of course all of the killings AREN'T justified". And I even gave you two examples where they were not. You're the one that labeled all Trump supporters (which you incorrectly assumed I was) racists, as a feeble attempt to deflect attention away from the conversation we were having about the myth of "hands up, don't shoot", that the BLM movement has erroneously been pushing for over two years now.

Lastly, I'm not calling ALL black Americans idiots. If you had read what I posted earlier, regarding the CA shooting, it said that the crowd of supporters weren't all black. Just as they weren't in the Charlotte protests, etc I'm calling all of the people that still believe "hands up, don't shoot" ever existed, idiots (MO, CA). It's not that difficult, man.

At no point did I call you, or even imply you were a Trump supporter. You completely made that up. Being unable to call people who believe all the shootings to be justified idiots does not equal Trump supporter. I mentioned them because many of them are the very people you've never heard of. 

Now giving me ANY answer to my question isn't actually giving a direct answer. A simple yes or no was all that was needed. Instead, you punted on first down. I didn't ask you if you knew anyone who held those opinions, so why are you telling me? You didn't tell us you personally knew any protestors who've said "hands up, don't shoot" but you've shown zero restraint in calling THEM idiots. Your answer was irrelevant to the question and you knew it. 

I'm done with this thread. Enjoy your bubble. 

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

Another woman on the video who was wearing hospital-style work clothing said she’s the man’s sister. She appeared distraught, repeatedly shrieking and crying, telling officers that she had called them to help her brother, who she described as mentally ill.

“I just called for help, and you came and killed him,” she said.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/police-shoot-kill-man-san-081905272.html

Mental health counselors trained in identifying and de-escalating a mental health crisis should be the first contact when a family member calls in bc a family member with known mental health issues is acting strange. Police officers are like hammers and will treat any contact with a "suspect" like they are a nail. 

A person going through a bad bi-polar spell or schizoprehenia  will not respond well to officers who are trained to immediately make a show of force and to demand strict and immediate compliance by yelling.   

I know it will require more funding and protocol will have to be developed to ensure that mental health responders are not put in danger .. but in 5 to 10 years, there is no reason why someone, who never committed a crime, should be dead bc they have a mental health issue.  

[LD0506]

I understand why people doubt and fear, I understand why they ask questions and want answers, even protesting before the facts are in is an American thing, but at some point they need to accept that they have some responsibilities as well, and that to me means not letting it turn into something ugly that negates their efforts. Rocks, bottles, molotov ****tails or gunfire are not forms of protest. "Hands up don't shoot" doesn't cross that line.

People ought to be able to trust their police, is that really too much to ask? Police need the trust of their community or they are just an occupying force, something they are neither trained or outfitted to do. Dialogue, open communication, answers and reassurance when there are "issues", that's how you address this turmoil.

Upset, fired up crowds are going to say **** to provoke, that's just the way things are, but I'd want LEOs to understand that responding with professional courtesy, even and especially in the face of provocation, is part of their job. No, it isn't pretty, it isn't easy, but it is essential.

[Ray-Ban Dan]

35 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

At no point did I call you, or even imply you were a Trump supporter. You completely made that up. Being unable to call people who believe all the shootings to be justified idiots does not equal Trump supporter. I mentioned them because many of them are the very people you've never heard of. 

Now giving me ANY answer to my question isn't actually giving a direct answer. A simple yes or no was all that was needed. Instead, you punted on first down. I didn't ask you if you knew anyone who held those opinions, so why are you telling me? You didn't tell us you personally knew any protestors who've said "hands up, don't shoot" but you've shown zero restraint in calling THEM idiots. Your answer was irrelevant to the question and you knew it. 

I'm done with this thread. Enjoy your bubble. 

It's impossible with you. I said "of course not all of the police shootings were justified". How many times do I have to post it?

This whole back n forth started because you took exception to me calling a few dozen supporters (black and white) idiots, for chanting "hands up, don't shoot" to protest the shooting of someone who did NOT in fact have their hands up! Unbelievable. So what DO you call them then?! And this isn't an isolated incident. This stuff has been going on since that phrase was disproven in the Mike Brown case---more than two years ago.

[Bozo the kKklown]

3 hours ago, Ray-Ban Dan said:

Who is doing that? 

your first posts about the Tulsa shooting was the standard, "why was he acting strange" even though the video was out, so the answer is you.

[grego]

20 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

your first posts about the Tulsa shooting was the standard, "why was he acting strange" even though the video was out, so the answer is you.

trying to clear this up cuz I think theres some confusion- game was asking if anyone who denies there are any unjustified police shootings was an idiot. ray was saying he hadn't heard anyone say such a thing (to be fair, I haven't either). I think the implication is, of course that person would be an idiot and he said of course there are unjustified police shootings, but it doesn't seem like its actually a thing. whereas, people chanting 'hands up' are definitely a thing.

[Bozo the kKklown]

3 minutes ago, grego said:

trying to clear this up cuz I think theres some confusion- game was asking if anyone who denies there are any unjustified police shootings was an idiot. ray was saying he hadn't heard anyone say such a thing (to be fair, I haven't either). I think the implication is, of course that person would be an idiot and he said of course there are unjustified police shootings, but it doesn't seem like its actually a thing. whereas, people chanting 'hands up' are definitely a thing.

thats completely fair, but I think the issue that many people who want our policing to change is that the immediate response from those who think the status quo is fine. "Not all the information is out," etc. Basically holding up a standard of proof that they do not apply when the situation is reversed. They are not listening but instead say, "hey calm down. You shouldnt be this upset yet. Wait for everything to come out first."

[Ray-Ban Dan]

41 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

your first posts about the Tulsa shooting was the standard, "why was he acting strange" even though the video was out, so the answer is you.

First of all, his question was: "Are the people who claim there are no unjustified shootings idiots too?" And since I've clearly pointed out in the thread that not all of these police shootings are justified (with examples), leads me to believe you either haven't read the entire thread, or just causing trouble.

Here is my first post on the OK shooting (pay close attention to the final paragraph):

 

"Saw the video earlier tonight. A few things struck me as odd:

1. Who leaves their broken down vehicle in the middle of a two-lane road? He was a huge guy. There was no reason for it to be in the middle of the road. Strange.

2. He had his hands up. But he appeared to be walking away from the cops, towards his suv. He then appeared to reach in his window. Not normal behavior.

Now, before anyone jumps the gun and thinks I'm saying he deserved to be shot--don't. Just pointing out that he didn't appear to be following all commands."

 

[grego]

21 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

thats completely fair, but I think the issue that many people who want our policing to change is that the immediate response from those who think the status quo is fine. "Not all the information is out," etc. Basically holding up a standard of proof that they do not apply when the situation is reversed. They are not listening but instead say, "hey calm down. You shouldnt be this upset yet. Wait for everything to come out first."

 

ya, waiting til facts come out is definitely a good idea, and in that sense I think video is great. it allows us to make quicker judgments about shootings. but theres kind of an inadvertent downside- now that video is so commonplace, we are going to question shootings where there is no video or where the video isn't clear (like charlotte). weve kind of raised the bar for standards of proof.

[Popeman38]

7 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

"hey calm down. You shouldnt be this upset yet. Wait for everything to come out first."

We should all apply this logic to every situation. The internet is a great asset for people, but it is also, unfortunately,  a great obstacle at the same time. Transparency does not equal immediacy. Right now, the expectations are the video will be made available as soon as the public learns about an incident.  If it's not, the assumption is there is something to hide. And based on history I understand completely why this is, but it is an unrealistic expectation to have the video the same day.  Tulsa handled everything beautifully, but the police force there has been working with social justice leaders and faith leaders for years to help ease the frustration with police. Change is happening right now, but it isn't going to be an overnight change. And I fear that our lack of patience nowadays won't allow a peaceful-ish change.

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

http://www.theroot.com/articles/news/2016/09/jimmy-james-tyson-justin-carr-charlotte/?utm_content=buffera41f5&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/special-reports/charlotte-shooting-protests/article104237666.html

^^ Appears that Justin Carr was not shot by police or with a rubber bullet but by another person, I wont call him a protester bc I dont think he was there to protest. 

-------------------

https://www.yahoo.com/gma/young-girl-emotional-council-speech-laments-shame-fatal-163048671--abc-news-topstories.html

If you havent watched and heard the words of the little girl speaking through her tears to the Charlotte Council, its powerful and a click away. Under a lot of emotion, she did an amazing job. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

38 minutes ago, grego said:

 

ya, waiting til facts come out is definitely a good idea, and in that sense I think video is great. it allows us to make quicker judgments about shootings. but theres kind of an inadvertent downside- now that video is so commonplace, we are going to question shootings where there is no video or where the video isn't clear (like charlotte). weve kind of raised the bar for standards of proof.

 

34 minutes ago, Popeman38 said:

We should all apply this logic to every situation. The internet is a great asset for people, but it is also, unfortunately,  a great obstacle at the same time. Transparency does not equal immediacy. Right now, the expectations are the video will be made available as soon as the public learns about an incident.  If it's not, the assumption is there is something to hide. And based on history I understand completely why this is, but it is an unrealistic expectation to have the video the same day.  Tulsa handled everything beautifully, but the police force there has been working with social justice leaders and faith leaders for years to help ease the frustration with police. Change is happening right now, but it isn't going to be an overnight change. And I fear that our lack of patience nowadays won't allow a peaceful-ish change.

My point isnt about waiting for camera or all the facts.

If a man shot at police and killed one of them, the conversation is not "lets wait for facts." It is immediately that person is vermin or scum and should be electric chaired, etc. The standard is different when shoe is on the other foot.

More than that, to me, using the "calm down and lets wait" even if all the facts are out pisses me off because those people are not listening to the concerns and fears.

 

Going forward, like with Zimmerman and the Bmore police involved in the Freddie Gray murder, they get celebrated by certain sectors in America. Its all a sick mess.

[TheGoodBits]

This thread seems fun.

[grego]

19 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

My point isnt about waiting for camera or all the facts.

If a man shot at police and killed one of them, the conversation is not "lets wait for facts." It is immediately that person is vermin or scum and should be electric chaired, etc. The standard is different when shoe is on the other foot.

More than that, to me, using the "calm down and lets wait" even if all the facts are out pisses me off because those people are not listening to the concerns and fears.

 

Going forward, like with Zimmerman and the Bmore police involved in the Freddie Gray murder, they get celebrated by certain sectors in America. Its all a sick mess.

 

I think if someone shoots a cop, its assumed that that person was not justified in doing so. I'm not sure how many cases there have been of justified cop shootings, but itd be interesting to look into it.

some people celebrate Zimmerman and don't listen, but definitely not all people.

 

[LD0506]

1 hour ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

This thread seems fun.

 

Do you cut yourself when you're feeling anxious?