Matt Jones Monday night

[TSO]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I'm sticking with the coaching staff opinion at the end of last year. Doesn't have the heart for it.

 

Exaggeration. Per the norm with Matt around here. They mentioned it once, and not in the way you are, but still stuck with him before he got hurt. 

The same coaching staff that stuck with him this offseason and continue to give him every opportunity to excel, right? Or are we getting into conspiracy territory now and are going to claim Scot is forcing them to do so?  

This claim of yours is extremely weird considering they're doing that... why in the heck would they allow him to start if they questioned his heart? 

Here's what was said this offseason on him: 

Quote

"Matt played well and we're very excited about him," Gruden said, via CSN Mid-Atlantic. "We let a heck of a running back, and a very productive running back, go because we have Matt."

.................................................

"We need him to protect the ball a little bit more," Gruden said. "He's a big, strong, powerful back that I think can handle the workload; time will tell on that. We're taking a bit of a gamble here, but based on our professional opinion, we believe he can handle it and be very, very effective at it, toting the rock."

Jones owns the size-speed combo coaches love and his ability to catch the ball out of the backfield makes him a three-down candidate, if he puts the rookie struggles behind him.

Gruden left zero doubt Jones will assume the No. 1 role.

"That's what we envision, yes. He's got the size. I mean, he's got the measurables, that's for sure. That doesn't always translate, so we'll see. We like Matt. We think he's a smart football player and he runs very, very hard. Now we just have to make sure the ball security is there (because) he can catch the ball out the backfield. He's a very good solid football player that we have high hopes for."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000648206/article/jay-gruden-were-taking-gamble-on-rb-matt-jones

 

Yeah, mmmhhhmmm... they took the gamble on him knowing he doesn't have the heart. That makes perfect sense, KB.  

[Taylor703]

@thesubmittedone

I've basically been wrong about one player and that was Robert but if you want to exaggerate now go for it. 

Anyway, he's been bad. Your opinion is that he's developing and that's fine. I'm not asking for him to be replaced because honestly I'd give him the rest of the year to see if he can figure it out. I personally don't think he will but with me being so wrong all the time like you said, the guy will most likely be a Pro Bowler. 

[TSO]

Just now, Taylor703 said:

@thesubmittedone

I've basically been wrong about one player and that was Robert but if you want to exaggerate now go for it. 

Anyway, he's been bad. Your opinion is that he's developing and that's fine. I'm not asking for him to be replaced because honestly I'd give him the rest of the year to see if he can figure it out. I personally don't think he will but with me being so wrong all the time like you said, the guy will most likely be a Pro Bowler. 

 

And Kirk.  

But there's been others... I've just forgotten. You have a habit of giving off snap judgments and writing people off. Or am I mistaking you for someone else? If so, forgive me, but I'm pretty sure it's you, lol. 

Don't get me wrong, there are many around these parts that do that. I just hate it when it happens with a young developmental prospect. We've seen time and again how some guys become studs in their 3rd or even 4th years. 

[elkabong82]

4 minutes ago, Taylor703 said:

@thesubmittedone

I've basically been wrong about one player and that was Robert 

 

 

Dan, is that you?

[Taylor703]

1 minute ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

And Kirk.  

But there's been others... I've just forgotten. You have a habit of giving off snap judgments and writing people off. Or am I mistaking you for someone else? If so, forgive me, but I'm pretty sure it's you, lol. 

Don't get me wrong, there are many around these parts that do that. I just hate it when it happens with a young developmental prospect. We've seen time and again how some guys become studs in their 3rd or even 4th years. 

I think our only differences have surrounded around Kirk and Robert which I've had no issue admitting I was wrong. 

Im not sitting here saying to cut Jones. I think he could be a nice asset as a third down back catching the ball out of the backfield but as of right now I just don't see him as a lead back. Honestly I don't think we have one on the roster so benching would be pointless. Just roll with him and see what happens. 

2 minutes ago, elkabong82 said:

 

Dan, is that you?

No. I don't think I've been vehemently against or for any other players? Most of our arguments surround around the QB position. 

[s0crates]

@thesubmittedone you're doing great work here. People are not being objective about Matt Jones at all, it seems they are looking for reasons to hate him. I'm not sure why that is, but it may be partly bitterness over letting Alfred Morris go.

I think you're right he has shown improvement. His 4.1 YPA this year is up over last year's 3.4 YPA, and he isn't fumbling as often.

He has a lot going for him. He's proven to be a very reliable receiver out of the backfield (9.1 YPC this year), he is pretty good in pass protection, he is fast for his size (4.55 40-yard dash), and he is big (232 lbs). He certainly has the tools.

He does have his shortcomings. He needs to keep working on his vision, decisiveness, and ball security. Hopefully he can work with coaches and improve in those areas, because if he does, then he has the potential to be very good indeed.

[TSO]

21 minutes ago, Taylor703 said:

I think our only differences have surrounded around Kirk and Robert which I've had no issue admitting I was wrong. 

Im not sitting here saying to cut Jones. I think he could be a nice asset as a third down back catching the ball out of the backfield but as of right now I just don't see him as a lead back. Honestly I don't think we have one on the roster so benching would be pointless. Just roll with him and see what happens. 

 

I could've sworn there were other things, though. Maybe it was with the coaches?  

Bah, no matter what, I appreciate you being a good sport about this. I know that's one thing about you I've always liked. I was a bit harsh in response to you and I apologize.  

[Taylor703]

Just now, thesubmittedone said:

 

I could've sworn there was other things, though. Maybe it was with the coaches?  

Bah, no matter what, I appreciate you being a good sport about this. I know that's one thing about you I've always liked. I was a bit harsh in response to you and I apologize.  

 Dude it's all good. We've disagreed before but you've always been fair to me. 

 

[NeverSurrender]

Im wondering if his shoulder injury is the reason for his indecisiveness.  I can imagine that if it is bothering him it would make him think twice before lowering his shoulder in the hole and delivering a blow to a defender.  That's really what I want to see him do.  I mean can you guys imagine a 5'9 195lb corner trying to tackle this guy?  As his he is just accepting defeat on contact.  Should be something to watch if he ever figures it out though. 

[Koolblue13]

1 hour ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Exaggeration. Per the norm with Matt around here. They mentioned it once, and not in the way you are, but still stuck with him before he got hurt. 

The same coaching staff that stuck with him this offseason and continue to give him every opportunity to excel, right? Or are we getting into conspiracy territory now and are going to claim Scot is forcing them to do so?  

This claim of yours is extremely weird considering they're doing that... why in the heck would they allow him to start if they questioned his heart? 

Here's what was said this offseason on him: 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000648206/article/jay-gruden-were-taking-gamble-on-rb-matt-jones

 

Yeah, mmmhhhmmm... they took the gamble on him knowing he doesn't have the heart. That makes perfect sense, KB.  

 

[TSO]

@Koolblue13 He already has, in different ways, considering the things you've said about him going into the season. But I'm not sure you'd recognize it, honestly. At this point I have no idea if you ever will, unless he just goes absolutely wild and kills it for 8 straight games. Or two seasons.  

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, thesubmittedone said:

@Koolblue13 He already has, in different ways, considering the things you've said about him going into the season. But I'm not sure you'd recognize it, honestly. At this point I have no idea if you ever will, unless he just goes absolutely wild and kills it for 8 straight games. Or two seasons.  

Quote feature makes me nuts.

Anyway, other than 5 quarters of football, mostly against the Brown's, has he done to prove me wrong?

Runs too high, knees too low, legs don't keep moving, falls down from arm tackles, no vision, lacks patience, dances too much.

But he's got the messurables!

[wit33]

There's an argument for Jones, really? 

Rob Kelly is coming for his job and it appears is going to get more action. 

[TSO]

36 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Quote feature makes me nuts.

Anyway, other than 5 quarters of football, mostly against the Brown's, has he done to prove me wrong?

Runs too high, knees too low, legs don't keep moving, falls down from arm tackles, no vision, lacks patience, dances too much.

But he's got the messurables!

 

Nope, this only proves your clear bias.

He has shown better pad level this season in general. Has been decisive behind the LOS more often than not. Has shown better vision behind the LOS and has often found lanes even when the initial one was taken away by someone losing their block. Has shown much better patience this year, hasn't bounced it outside like he was last year. Hasn't danced much behind the LOS.

I don't know what it's at now, but going into the game he was in the top 5 overall in yards after contact for RBs according to PFF. How does that happen if he's just falling down from arm tackles? 

Now, once he gets past the LOS, he's got clear vision issues and doesn't seem to be as decisive. He's trying to make too much happen too often instead of just using his size. I agree. But you're ignoring a lot with your assessments. It's all you've done with him. I know you feel good about it because he's become ES's new favorite target^tm  , but you're wrong. 

[wit33]

23 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said:

ES's new favorite target

In your mind, does it appear Rob Kelly will be the recipient of more carries this week? If so, this directly correlates with The play of Jones. Now, the way I broke down Gruden' s presser was trying to still keep Jones confidence while stating Kelly will get a shot at making an impact. 

This doesn't happen if Jones is playing good (whatever good means). 

[RandyHolt]

I was expecting to see Rob get some touches early in the year. I suspect Jay was waiting for the inevitable fumble to get Kelley touches, ostensibly telling Matt if you don't fumble the job is yours. I wonder if Jay and Scot consider Jones a polished runner; he looks very raw to me.  Some things appear to be more important than polished running, starting with pass pro. 

[s0crates]

53 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I was expecting to see Rob get some touches early in the year. I suspect Jay was waiting for the inevitable fumble to get Kelley touches, ostensibly telling Matt if you don't fumble the job is yours. I wonder if Jay and Scot consider Jones a polished runner; he looks very raw to me.  Some things appear to be more important than polished running, starting with pass pro. 

 

. . . and reliable hands on check downs. Jay likes to pass. 

Also, good point about holding Jones accountable. I think there is something to that. Kelley came in shortly after the fumble.

I'll also add that the sequence in the game where they were rotating the two of them almost every other down looked effective, at least as I remember it.

EDIT, Here it is (3rd Q):

1-10-WAS 20 (6:09) M.Jones right guard to WAS 32 for 12 yards (L.Webb; E.Weddle).
	1-10-WAS 32 (5:36) R.Kelley left guard to WAS 48 for 16 yards (E.Weddle; A.McClellan).
	1-10-WAS 48 (4:54) K.Cousins pass short left to P.Garcon ran ob at BAL 42 for 10 yards.
	1-10-BAL 42 (4:23) K.Cousins pass short middle to M.Jones to BAL 29 for 13 yards (L.Webb).
	1-10-BAL 29 (3:41) M.Jones right guard to BAL 26 for 3 yards (E.Weddle).
	2-7-BAL 26 (3:01) (Shotgun) R.Kelley left guard to BAL 23 for 3 yards (T.Jernigan).
	3-4-BAL 23 (2:18) (Shotgun) K.Cousins pass short middle to P.Garcon to BAL 14 for 9 yards (J.Powers).
	1-10-BAL 14 (1:39) M.Jones right guard to BAL 13 for 1 yard (T.Jernigan; B.Williams).
	2-9-BAL 13 (:53) (Shotgun) K.Cousins pass short right to J.Crowder ran ob at BAL 8 for 5 yards.
	3-4-BAL 8 (:24) (Shotgun) K.Cousins pass incomplete short left to D.Jackson [E.Dumervil].
	4-4-BAL 8 (:18) (Field Goal formation) D.Hopkins 27 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-N.Sundberg, Holder-T.Way.

[TSO]

13 hours ago, wit33 said:

In your mind, does it appear Rob Kelly will be the recipient of more carries this week? If so, this directly correlates with The play of Jones. Now, the way I broke down Gruden' s presser was trying to still keep Jones confidence while stating Kelly will get a shot at making an impact. 

This doesn't happen if Jones is playing good (whatever good means). 

 

Well, I'm not sure. Earlier this year the same was said about Kelley. I think it was after week 2 leading up the Giants game? 

Then what, he got like one drive the entire game? 

I do think they're growing a little impatient with Matt. However, I don't think their impatience with him is anything at all like the irrational fan type we've seen here... I think they're trying to find whatever way they can to light a fire under him, because they want him to become what they believe he can become. 

Until I see Kelley getting the bulk of the carries, I'm going to say increasing his carries has more to do with helping (by keeping him fresher, which was mentioned in that presser) or trying to improve Matt's game (through motivation via anger at losing snaps and the potential of losing more) than it is a punishment for him not playing well. 

It could also be about holding him accountable for fumbling as mentioned above which is, again, more about motivating him. 

If it's simply "he's not playing good", then they should just give Kelley the bulk of the carries and see what he can do. Instead, the most Jay said was they want to give him "a couple more shots". 

I'll change my tune if that's what happens (Kelley getting the bulk of the carries). 

Does that make sense? 

[Koolblue13]

We're #29 in rushing attempts. Jones is plenty fresh.

[Darrell Green Fan]

I have lost count on the number of plays that look to be working and then it turns into a disappointing 2 yard gain.  I was fine with the Morris decision, thinking he lacked the gear to turn an 8 yard run into 20.  But that same play for Matt Jones results in 2 yards far too often. If we can all see it then it is obvious that he is not the answer.

 Look around the league, a good back just isn't that hard to find.  Those thinking he is middle of the pack are is simply not paying attention to the other backs around the league.  He is near the bottom.

[crabbypatty]

11 hours ago, thesubmittedone said:

 

Nope, this only proves your clear bias.

He has shown better pad level this season in general. Has been decisive behind the LOS more often than not. Has shown better vision behind the LOS and has often found lanes even when the initial one was taken away by someone losing their block. Has shown much better patience this year, hasn't bounced it outside like he was last year. Hasn't danced much behind the LOS.

I don't know what it's at now, but going into the game he was in the top 5 overall in yards after contact for RBs according to PFF. How does that happen if he's just falling down from arm tackles? 

Now, once he gets past the LOS, he's got clear vision issues and doesn't seem to be as decisive. He's trying to make too much happen too often instead of just using his size. I agree. But you're ignoring a lot with your assessments. It's all you've done with him. I know you feel good about it because he's become ES's new favorite target^tm  , but you're wrong. 

 

I'd probably be the last person here to agree with KB, but he's right. Jones may be showing better vision and pad level, or whatever improvements he's shown, but even though it's an improvement for him, it's still not up to par for average NFL standards. Even a blind man can see how much is being left on the field with Jones, and it's a ton on almost every play. That's what's so infuriating about him. You think that that guy West from Bmore would miss as badly as Jones does with all the holes/running room (Jones) has had lately and he still can't get it done, and still leaves a TON on the field.. West would be leading the league in rushing, or be damn near to it if he had Jones' opportunities, even with the 29th in the league ranking at rushing attempts.

He may not have danced much behind the LOS, but his vision is poor and he sure does a ton of dancing IN the hole, with that little jump/stutter step he does going into it vs just hitting it with authority. He tries to run around guys vs. running through them. He does not have that killer instinct of "the only thing between me and the goal line is you, so you gotta go" mentality. Personally I think he's just too passive for the position and the league given his size/speed/weight.

He's not the new ES target for no reason.. The guy is not getting it done, and leaves a TON on the field, even worse than Kirk.. and that's saying something.

[Panninho]

I looked at every single rushing play we had against Baltimore on coaches film. I am by no means an expert so it might be that I misjudge some situations but more often than not there was just not a lot there. Long got manhandled on a few running plays and Lauvao seemed to miss some blocks (I saw him standing in the nowhere 2 times I think). On 1 play Jones definitely missed a cut back behind Reed and Lauvao that could have gotten a good amount of yards I think but most of the time the running lanes closed pretty damn fast. My take is that Baltimore has a great rushing defense and we created some great lanes at the snap but when Jones arrived a lot of those lanes closed extremely fast.

Most people complain that Jones stutters and has no decisiveness but I couldn't tell that from the tape. He chose the favorable lane in most situations and committed to that lane. On one play in the redzone he made the right cut to the outside but Lauvao (I think) got driven back into his running lane so he ran into Lauvao which looked dumb in the first sequence but the middle was stuffed and behind Lauvao Trent Williams had the only other defender pretty much sealed. That run most definitely was designed to go through the middle but I think it was the right play to bounce it outside. Unfortunately Lauvao got driven back.

Of course there where a couple of yards here and there that might have been added with perfect execution but that is the case for every team. That potential cut behind Reed and Lauvao would have gotten a few extra yards for sure. But from what I saw I think that this was just a run defense superior to our rushing offense. I still think that we are on the right track. Scherff looked great. He drove two guys to the ground with ease and seemed to block really well. Long and Lauvao on the other side where the obvious weaknesses when it came to run blocking. I won't hold it against Long because he had 2-3 pretty good blocks as well (on that Kelley 16-yards run he drove their NT to the ground) and plays a completely new position. But to me it's obvious that the C is still the position that hurts our running game the most. Long did good in pass protection though and we should give him time to improve his run blocking game.

My conclusion is that we should try to run it to the outside more often against the Eagles. They have great DTs so run blocking is going to be a problem through the middle. I don't think Matt Jones is a special player right now but I also think the criticism he receives is too much. I don't know how many posts i saw where people complained that he dances around 5'9" cornerbacks instead of running through them since Sunday. Yeah that is an issue but there was not a single play where that happend against the Ravens. So why would people bring that up again after he had 3 good halfs of running the ball against the Giants and the Browns? I think all he needs is more carries. It took him some time to find a groove against the Browns and the Giants but it's the same with the blocking of our O-Line. Playing pass 70% of the time won't improve their run blocking as well.

I also think our running game is very uncreative. We run very few late hand offs or pitches and almost exclusively run the ball with at least 2 TEs on the formation. It's not a big magic for defenses to defend the run against us.

[TSO]

@crabbypatty See, your post is exactly what I'm talking about. And further proof of Matt being more targeted here than anything else. I mean, please, before a single down was played this season the guy was written off. 

As for what I mean when I say this is exactly what I'm talking about... it's the exaggerations, hyperbole, and general extremist thinking that goes on the majority of the time when discussing Matt that ruins any attempt at a normal and fair discussion regarding him. 

Just look at your post. A "blind man" can see he's leaving stuff on the field, and "it's a ton on almost every play". "He leaves a TON on the field" (your capitalization, not mine). 

What utter nonsense and hyperbole. You don't average over 4 ypc by doing that. He's certainly missed some opportunities here and there, but just like with Kirk they're being way too magnified while the good is omitted. 

Your claim of of running holes and lanes makes it sound like our Oline is just amazing at run blocking. Again, utter nonsense and hyperbole. They've done much better, but you talk as if there's gaping hole after gaping hole being opened up by them. 

"West would be leading the league... even with 29th in the league rushing attempts..." running behind them? Are you kidding me!? We just saw West have a pedestrian stat line against us with a pretty decent amount of attempts and some big holes, especially early on, didn't we? And you come up with that one!? 

Like, thanks for proving my point. No one seems to have an ability to discuss Matt's issues without throwing any objectivity out the window. It's really something. I don't know what that something is, but it's certainly not rational. 

If he's that utterly terrible as so many are claiming here, I don't see how the entire coaching staff shouldn't be fired for playing such an utterly useless player this much, let alone have him start. I mean, they must clearly be complete idiots who have zero knowledge of football because "even a blind man..." blah blah blah. 

Scot should be hung for spending a 3rd rounder on him, too. And constantly praising his abilities whenever asked about him. Or, heck, even when he's not asked and just brings him up gushingly on his own. 

Oh, and every defensive coordinator we've faced that allowed him to have any type of success against their defense should immediately kill themselves. How dare they insult the game of football for allowing such a high YPC average to such a terrible player. Oh yeah, it's not their fault. Our incredible run blocking Oline opened up gaping holes all the time and Matt just walked for those yards before being taken down by a pinky. 

Awesome. 

[TSO]

4 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

We're #29 in rushing attempts. Jones is plenty fresh.

 

How about the last three games? You know, the more recent and therefore relevant ones? Yeah, I mean, we're not hardcore enough on here to know there's been an obvious difference in rush attempts since those first two games, right?

And that wasn't the only reasoning I gave. *pulls hair out*

[Koolblue13]

Jones has all the tools. He's a fantastic receiving threat. I think he'd make one of the better 3rd down backs in the league.

I just don't think he's got the Moxy to be an every down, dirty stuff back.

I do think we should start Fat Rob or Mack Brown.