LATime.com Neo-Nazis didn't start the violence at state Capitol, police say

[Kilmer17]

Or boat.

People are going to start showing up to these things with weapons to protect themselves from the protestors.

I imagine the first time that happens the protestors will start showing up with weapons.

Oh for sure the left will blame trump and guns.

[TradeTheBeal!]

People are going to die in the US in the near future.

Bold prediction!

[Destino]

You are conflating two very, very different things in a way that isn't really honest, IMO.  The colleges may be overly PC, but the use of violence has rarely if ever been a part of it.  

 

Combining these two bogeymen together in this way makes both problems seem larger and more overwhelming than either of them actually are.   

 

Is the level of violence on campus because the protestors are different or because the reaction to them is different? 

 

A bunch of kids hoping to hear what right wing troll Milo Yiannopoulos has to say at DePaul University aren't Nazis or Trump.  They'll leave and furiously complain on the internet.  Trump isn't leaving, he's having security throw them out while he does his macho routine that incites his supporters to violence.  Nazi's are crazy to start with so violence is probably something they were secretly hoping for. 

 

The mentality behind the disruption however, is the same.  They will stop the event or someone will have to physically stop them from doing so.  I'm not sure forcing choice between capitulation or a physical confrontation really qualifies as non-violent.

 

This feels, to me, very much like the right wing refusing to own their crazy wing and accept that their long lived inflammatory rhetoric plays a role in it.  When Cliven Bundy decided to not pay his bill and faced down authorities much of the nonsensical justification is rooted in the right wing anti-government play book.  Yes some are more extreme than others but a radical many give birth to a violent few.  The violent ones aren't born from nothing. 

[Destino]

People are going to die in the US in the near future.

 

I'm kind of hoping that once Trump is defeated people regain their senses and this stuff is squashed and seen as entirely unacceptable again. 

[Kilmer17]

Sadly, I don't think Trump is the cause.

[Commander PK]

JERRY JERRY JERRY JERRY!!!!!!!

Take care of yourself...and each other.

[Burgold]

Sadly, I don't think Trump is the cause.

The danger of lighting of fire is that once it's lit it is extremely hard to control or put out. Trump isn't the only spark. Clearly, as Predicto pointed out there was frustration which led to the Occupy movement which although it was largely peaceful had some violent flare outs. Throughout the country there is frustration whether it's with the economy, jobs, prison system, homicides, etc. I think that underlying anger and disquiet explains the popularity of both Trump and Sanders to a large degree.

 

That said, Trump loves making people angry and he's good at it. Trump uses the language of us vs. them a lot and that stirs antagonism. People react to it especially people who have historically been harmed by this kind of rhetoric before. I liken it to a person who has been slapped often in the past or seen a parent abused. For some, when they see a raised hand afterwards it's hard not to flinch. It's hard not to strike out.

 

People are responsible for their own actions. That goes for verbal actions as well. Verbal violence should be confronted with verbal violence. Scottish Twitter's response to Trump is the right approach. Fisticuffs or worse is not.

 

Still, there is a reason why scapegoating has always led to violence. That reason is because it is meant to.

[Renegade7]

Sadly, I don't think Trump is the cause.

 

No, but he's been like a liter of lighter fluid even to parts of the fire we hoped were just smoldering.

[Zguy28]

I thought about starting a thread on this exact thing

i think its a general intolerance of anything deemed unPC. It should be a concern for us all

Tolerance then - accepting the fact that others have views different than your own while not accepting the truth of said views

 

Tolerance now - accepting others views as equally true and if you disagree with me I have every right to shut you up, even with violence.

 

I would say to tell them violence, even in counter, is unPC. But then they would probably turn and beat on me too.

[Bang]

I really really have a hard time "tolerating" Nazism.
There are some things that are intolerable, and if the opposing view is "all of you should die because of your color / race/ nationality" then I see no reason at all to be tolerant.
Nazis are a threat by their very embrace of the nazi ideology. 

But being violent gives them what they want.

~Bang

[tshile]

tolerant in that case bang, is:
they've legally acquired a permit to protest, which they're allowed to do.

so... ignore them.

not really hard to do.

in fact, there's an argument to be made that if these 'protestors' didn't bother protesting (much less causing violence) significantly fewer people would have even heard about their stupid little march.

[Burgold]

tolerant in that case bang, is:

they've legally acquired a permit to protest, which they're allowed to do.

so... ignore them.

not really hard to do.

in fact, there's an argument to be made that if these 'protestors' didn't bother protesting (much less causing violence) significantly fewer people would have even heard about their stupid little march.

2-edged sword. Ignoring them might work, but then again, ignoring them and letting them talk led to 6 million deaths and WWII.

Violence isn't the answer, but neither is staying silent/ ignoring them.

[Xameil]

2-edged sword. Ignoring them might work, but then again, ignoring them and letting them talk led to 6 million deaths and WWII.

Violence isn't the answer, but neither is staying silent/ ignoring them.

I think there were a few more red flags and steps between letting them talk and 6 million deaths.

[TheGreatBuzz]

I really really have a hard time "tolerating" Nazism.

There are some things that are intolerable, and if the opposing view is "all of you should die because of your color / race/ nationality" then I see no reason at all to be tolerant.

Nazis are a threat by their very embrace of the nazi ideology. 

But being violent gives them what they want.

~Bang

I don't think tolerating is the best word but I can't think of a better one.  But the great thing about our country is that the masses don't have to approve your message. 

 

"I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it."

[Burgold]

I think there were a few more red flags and steps between letting them talk and 6 million deaths.

Well, we are talking about Nazis in this thread. I think those inbetween steps have been taken. They're not exactly a group celebrating love, compromise, and unity. We have also seen many times that ignoring these groups lead to their hate and power spreading.

[Bang]

I have a hard time jiving that with just how many Americans died to destroy them and their views.

And ..  they did do a lot of talking in the past, and it led directly to all those deaths. Pretending they are not connected is ludicrous. Nuremberg was them talking.
what happened next is what is important. Their talk demands action.

 

But, i do get why in america we must "tolerate' them,, and 'ignore" them.

And to me, an opposing viewpoint is someone who believes in God, or wants to home-school, or believes abortion should be illegal..  Those are "views"... those are ideas that are benign in their discourse and disagreements. they are also views in which i have no problem tolerating or defending, because they are personal choices that do not affect others in a dangerous manner.
Advocating master race supremacy and death unto all others isn't what i call a view,, more like a direct threat.
But, tolerance and ignorance are our way, even if in some cases I think it's abused..  such as Nazis, who's views have put the entire world into a desperate war to stop them from achieving their goals. The results: the largest catastrophe in terms of lives lost in the whole of human history.

Besides, as we all know, if we just pretend cancer isn't cancer,, then it turns into dreams of sugarplums and goes away.

 

~Bang

[The Evil Genius]

I don't think anyone loves the violence that took place across the street from me. And those who started it and continued it are wrong. 100%.

 

Has anyone really talked about what the purpose of the Traditional Worker's Party congregation was? Was it to to intimidate as white power gatherings are suppose to do? To show support for race based policies that one candidate doesn't seem to be shrinking away from? To make America the great white power again? What exactly was the point of the rally? That really does play a part of the discussion.

[Xameil]

Well, we are talking about Nazis in this thread. I think those inbetween steps have been taken. They're not exactly a group celebrating love, compromise, and unity. We have also seen many times that ignoring these groups lead to their hate and power spreading.

No and I agree, but many groups express equal hate for races and religions verbally.

I was just pointing out it wasn't that Hitler spewed his hate verbally and then the next day killed 6 million people. He gave the world ample signals, and even stated his eventual intentions in a book. But before that there were many steps before his hate speech went to mass murder and genocide.

Plus we are talking about a small group of non influential people doing a small demonstration. Not to mention a demonstration that would have gone completely un-noticed had the protesters done nothing.

I think we are a far ways away from comparing the American neo-Nazis to the third reich.

[Zguy28]

I have a hard time jiving that with just how many Americans died to destroy them and their views.

And ..  they did do a lot of talking in the past, and it led directly to all those deaths. Pretending they are not connected is ludicrous. Nuremberg was them talking.

what happened next is what is important. Their talk demands action.

 

But, i do get why in america we must "tolerate' them,, and 'ignore" them.

And to me, an opposing viewpoint is someone who believes in God, or wants to home-school, or believes abortion should be illegal..  Those are "views"... those are ideas that are benign in their discourse and disagreements. they are also views in which i have no problem tolerating or defending, because they are personal choices that do not affect others in a dangerous manner.

Advocating master race supremacy and death unto all others isn't what i call a view,, more like a direct threat.

But, tolerance and ignorance are our way, even if in some cases I think it's abused..  such as Nazis, who's views have put the entire world into a desperate war to stop them from achieving their goals. The results: the largest catastrophe in terms of lives lost in the whole of human history.

Besides, as we all know, if we just pretend cancer isn't cancer,, then it turns into dreams of sugarplums and goes away.

 

~Bang

I hear you loud and clear Bang. I have difficulty tolerating them as well. And my tolerance comment was more in general than specific because it seems like (aided by sensationalist headlines no doubt) that this new form of "tolerance" is taking issue with other, less threatening, views or movements or whatever.

 

Question for everybody, why does not everybody feel the same way about Communism? Is it because of McCarthyism or that its a Leftist idealogy or that they don't advocate race-based policy? I really am curious as to opinions on that.

No and I agree, but many groups express equal hate for races and religions verbally.

I was just pointing out it wasn't that Hitler spewed his hate verbally and then the next day killed 6 million people. He gave the world ample signals, and even stated his eventual intentions in a book. But before that there were many steps before his hate speech went to mass murder and genocide.

Plus we are talking about a small group of non influential people doing a small demonstration. Not to mention a demonstration that would have gone completely un-noticed had the protesters done nothing.

I think we are a far ways away from comparing the American neo-Nazis to the third reich.

Not to mention, prior to WWII, many Americans were sympathetic to Nazi Germany (Charles Lindberg comes to mind). We didn't enter the war to stop the Holocaust if I remember correctly, we did it because we were attacked by Japan who was an ally of Germany.

[visionary]

https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2016/06/28/trump-sacramento-and-future-white-nationalism-interview-matthew-heimbach

Trump, Sacramento, and the Future of White Nationalism: An Interview with Matthew Heimbach

 

A violent confrontation in Sacramento, Ca., on Sunday between members of the white nationalist Traditionalist Worker Party (TWP), members of the Golden State Skins (GSS), and antifascist counter-protesters left a number of people hospitalized.

 

The scheduled protest, for which the TWP had secured a permit at the California State Capitol, immediately turned into a brawl and became yet another episode of political violence during this presidential election year.

 

Today, Hatewatch reached out to Matthew Heimbach, the head of the Traditionalist Youth Network (TYN) and the TWP, to get his perspective on what happened in Sacramento, Trump's candidacy, and the recent “Brexit” referendum where the United Kingdom voted to leave the European Union.

[The Evil Genius]

The only people who are pretending they were unaware of the potential violence on Sunday are the city and the state police.

 

Violence was going to happen. It was promised by both sides.

 

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article86491542.html

[Burgold]

No and I agree, but many groups express equal hate for races and religions verbally.

I think we both hear each other, but it's a delicate line. Hitler's hate speech and his recruitment of militias to bully people in the streets caught fire pretty quickly. In addition, the use of pamphlets and speeches filled with hate rhetoric was well-suited to a population that was prone towards antisemitism already.

 

I don't think it's entirely the same, but it is worth considering. In November, December and all the way pretty much into May, the Republicans ignored and refused to attack Trump for his rhetoric figuring he would implode and cooler heads would prevail. One by one, each was sunk as Trump continued to attack. Eventually, all those other "reasoned" voices became irrelevant as the party aligned itself more and more with Trump. Now, the establishment is bending over backwards to embrace him.

 

Silence and ignoring problems sometimes work. Often, they beget bigger problems.

[twa]

The only people who are pretending they were unaware of the potential violence on Sunday are the city and the state police.

 

Violence was going to happen. It was promised by both sides.

 

http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article86491542.html

 

If they attack us we will fight back is not a promise of violence to happen

[Burgold]

Violent Pro-Trump Neo-Nazis to Crash GOP Convention

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/06/29/violent-pro-trump-neo-nazis-to-crash-gop-convention.html?via=desktop&source=twitter

 

After a knife fight in Sacramento, neo-Nazis have decided to take their talents to Cleveland to defend Donald Trump supporters during the GOP convention.

The neo-Nazis who organized the pro-Donald Trump rally in Sacramento, California, thatturned bloody over the weekend have a new destination: The Republican National Convention in Cleveland.

“We’re essentially just going to show up and make sure that the Donald Trump supporters are defended from the leftist thugs,” Matt Parrott, spokesman for the white-nationalist Traditionalist Worker Party, told McClatchy, claiming that roughly 30 members of the party would head to Ohio in July.

[Destino]

We do not tolerate awful groups like American Nazis.  We reject them out right and I certainly would never hire one or offer my hand in friendship.  **** them.  The point here is that we respect the idea of freedom of speech, of peaceable assembly, and really of thought.  We combat ideas with better ideas.