Assorted Militia/SovCit news,(formerly Bundy thread)

[Bliz]

I recognize that, in light of yesterday's events, I'm addressing something unimportant that has already been moved past.  But, as a construction lawyer, I thought I'd take a stab at addressing some of Larry's concerns regarding liens.

 

I'll certainly take y'all's word for it, that that's the way things ARE. But I've got to say, I've got a problem with that. Seems to me that what we've created is a situation where anybody who wants to can claim to own your house, and your only remedy is to go to court, at your own expense, and prove your innocence.

To get your judgment, you had to go to court, and prove that a debt existed. You had to at least give the accused an opportunity to contest your claim. And the burden of proof was on the person wanting the property.

Seems, to me, that seizing somebody's home should require AT LEAST that burden of proof.

(And yes, I realize that a lein is only a claim to own PART of your home. So what?)

I would think that a law is needed. Maybe two.

1). In order to place a lein on real estate, a judgment must first be obtained.
2). Falsifying a judgement is a criminal offense. (A felony, if the amount of the lein is more than $20, or whatever the threshold for felony theft is, in that jurisdiction).

Maybe, if there's some reason why it's necessary, you permit non-judgement leins to be placed, but such leins expire, say, one year after being filed, unless a judgment is obtained.

 

A lien is not a claim that you own someone's house, and it's not a claim that you have a judgment.  It's a public notice that you claim the owner of the property owes you money for work you did to improve the property, and that if they don't pay it then you have a right to go after the property.  But that's a long process.  You file the lien, file the lawsuit, win the lawsuit (by proving that you completed the work properly and were not paid), fail to collect on the judgment, initiate foreclosure proceedings, advertise the property for sale, then actually sell it on the courthouse steps.  I spent the last 10 years at an 8-person firm in Atlanta doing nothing but construction litigation, and in that time not one person at my firm ever actually foreclosed on a piece of property.  And we filed a LOT of liens.

 

There are 3 parties we have to protect here - the contractor/subcontractor entitled to be paid for their work (the routine screwing over of these guys is part of why we have lien laws in the first place); the owner who shouldn't have illegitimate liens on his property; and the subsequent purchaser who, if they buy the property without knowing about the claim, can not be at risk of a lien foreclosure action. Lien laws are an attempt to balance all of those interests.

 

The reason your proposal doesn't work is it ignores how long it takes to get a judgment.  Typically a lawsuit is going to take at least a year to win.  Longer if the subcontractor has to sue the GC and the Owner in separate venues or if there's an appeal.  If you had to win a lawsuit first, unscrupulous owners would rush to sell the property before the lawsuit was over, screwing over either the contractor or the subsequent purchaser.  That's why lien statutes require fast action.  In most states you have to file within 90 days after the work is done, which minimizes to the greatest extent possible the ability of those bad actor owners to sell the property to an unsuspecting purchaser before the lien can be filed.

 

FYI filing a fraudulent lien can subject you to punitive damages, attorneys fees and criminal penalties, in some states.

 

Gee, I could have sworn that I mentioned that they weren't claiming all of your house, just part of it.

And it's still wrong. In order to attack something so basic, the plaintiff should have to go to court and prove that the debt exists.  (In a setting where the owner has the right to object.  That includes being told that the claim is being made.)  The owner should not have to prove his innocence. 

 

To actually foreclose on the lien, the contractor has to prove their claim first and obtain a judgment in court, basically by winning a breach of contract action and proving that they dotted all their i's and crossed all their t's in filing the lien.  Again, the lien is just a notice to the world that a claim--not a judgment--exists.

 

I do not believe that the only possible way to resolve said disputes, is to allow the contractor to encumber the homeowners property, with no burden of proof whatsoever, and the homeowner must then give in, or go to court and prove his innocence.

Maybe I'm silly, but I think the burden of proof should be on the contractor, and that said proof should come before encumbering the property.

And, like I suggested. If there's some compelling reason why the contractor has to get the encumbrance first (say, an electrician who didn't get paid by the general contractor, and the house is about to be sold next week), then let them get a temporary, one year, encumbrance, while they wait for their court date.

 

That's exactly what a lien is.  A temporary encumbrance.  If you don't file suit within a year (typically), the lien is automatically invalid.  The only reason 10 year old liens are a problem for anyone is because title companies are a pain in the ass and will treat an obviously expired lien as if it were valid because they are prohibited from using their brains.

 

Also, for what it's worth, it's easy to get a lien off your property without going to court.  All you have to do is bond it off.  You pay a bonding company 3-5% of the amount of the lien, they issue a bond, the lien transfers from the property to the bond, and *boom* the property is free and clear to sell.  

Edited January 27, 2016 by Bliz

[No Excuses]

So apparently this is all a ploy by Obama, Hillary and the Russians to steal Bundy land because it's super rich in Uranium.  LOL

[PCS]

That's one of them.Another is that is part of a master plan by the President to keep the power of the presidency after his term is done. Going to declare martial law and open the Fema Camps. 

 

 

 

News about last night. 

 

http://koin.com/2016/01/27/bundy-brothers-5-others-booked-into-mult-co-jail/

 

 

Also. One of the guys with Bundy who was arrested and then released,put up a video,(that's been taken down now),stating that Lavoy apparently stayed in the truck,then tried drive through police and away from scene and got himself stuck. Left the truck and charged officers. Shot then. After that,he told anyone who was on the way to the refuge to turn back. Wouldn't do any good and where the hell were they before this went down.  

 

 

Edit: Raw story with a video from one of the militants there. 

 

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eyewitnesses-knock-down-conspiracy-theories-about-lavoy-finicum-dying-with-his-hands-up/

 

 

Edit 2:  Here's the youtube video in the Raw story article. 

 

[tshile]

If you've never had the pleasure of interacting with one of these people, it can truly be frightening.

 

Not in the 'omg are they going to hurt me' way, but in the 'holy **** people actually think like this' way.

 

The level at which these people are convinced of what they say is partly fascinating but also partly terrifying.

 

And for many of these people it's not like they're impoverished or economically 'left behind', or that it's something they were raised believing (which is where you see most brainwashing like this take hold - people who are too young to know any better, or people who have been crapped on by society so much they believe they have few real options.) It's like they're people who spent too much time on the internet one weekend and got lost. Like if you know someone that took too much lsd and never came back.

 

I once had someone outline a very long plan about how the government was going to fake attacks on civilians to get people to attack the military/police to justify internment camps and marshal law. Or maybe it was fake attacks on police/military to get them to attack civilians, to create the unrest that lead to the camps and marshal law. I can't remember.

 

They're like those people that think the world will end because the Mayans stopped counting or the year would start with a 2. Except they're much closer to actually selling everything they own because they actually believe what they say.

 

---

 

On another note. I watched the Netflix documentary on the cartels in Mexico which included some of the US border militias.  (If the documentary is to be believed as an objective view) They're quite different people than this (though there is some overlap...) Was pretty interesting.

Edited January 27, 2016 by tshile

[The Sisko]

That's one of them.Another is that is part of a master plan by the President to keep the power of the presidency after his term is done. Going to declare martial law and open the Fema Camps.

Gawd's honest truth! I seent them FEMA coffins, now. Don't tell me I didn't. 

 

 

News about last night. 

 

http://koin.com/2016/01/27/bundy-brothers-5-others-booked-into-mult-co-jail/

 

 

Also. One of the guys with Bundy who was arrested and then released,put up a video,(that's been taken down now),stating that Lavoy apparently stayed in the truck,then tried drive through police and away from scene and got himself stuck. Left the truck and charged officers. Shot then. After that,he told anyone who was on the way to the refuge to turn back. Wouldn't do any good and where the hell were they before this went down.  

 

 

Edit: Raw story with a video from one of the militants there. 

 

http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eyewitnesses-knock-down-conspiracy-theories-about-lavoy-finicum-dying-with-his-hands-up/

Meh, just more lies by the libruhl Joo run media. This guy was paid to say this.

[PCS]

On the live feed now,(provided by Fry the dumbass in the compound). They are definitely planning to go down fighting. Worried about sunrise attack so they're "deploying." Sounds like Blaine Cooper is in charge of the 6-8 left? Wants someone with a high powered rifle on a ridge and told everyone to have a "give no quarter" attitude and no lone wolves or loose cannons either.  

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

Hard to fathom dying for a fictional cause. I'm not sure there is a real cause that I'd be willing to die for.

[DogofWar1]

On the one hand, watching those live streams would be hilarious. On the other hand, I'm worried they're gonna dragnet the IPs of watchers and stuff us on a list. I'm sure we're all on lists somewhere for something, but I'd prefer to be on as few lists as possible.

Edited January 27, 2016 by DogofWar1

[Larry]

I'm wondering if these morons realize that what they're doing with all this tough talk, is loudly informing everybody in America that the cops are justified in killing them. 

[Bang]

On the usual conspiracy theories around these types of morons..  the thing that always kills me and i have never ever heard even a whit of an answer for..   what does the US government stand to gain by imprisoning all of it's citizens in camps and performing genocide?

 

The democrats being in the Oval office always seems to spark these sorts of things..   you know,, the same ones who want to tax us to death and provide free everything to everyone,, wants to .. uh.. imprison everyone they could potentially tax so they can provide services for,  uh..   people they rounded up and put in FEMA camps so they could exterminate them.

 

None of makes a single lick of sense, and you really REALLY have to be a special kind of stupid to buy into it.

 

~Bang

Edited January 27, 2016 by Bang

[PCS]

Over 4,000 viewers in the live stream and counting. These folks are something that's for sure. Stream just went down but it's done that several time so far. Timed out or something.  They're pretty timely in getting head counts from around the place. They also mentioned a .50 rifle in place,(tower).  They're going to start getting punchy soon. Most haven't slept since yesterday morning. Dangerous time there. Start seeing stuff and then shoot at it. 

 

Edit. Right after I post that this shows up. 

 

 

 Follow

Andrew Dymburt‏@DymburtNews

The @FBI is advising journalists to leave now. Could be gearing up for a move on #Malheur keep it locked to @KOINNews for updates

 

 

 

Press has been told by FBI no safety, move back 10 miles.

[Larry]

Over 4,000 viewers in the live stream and counting. These folks are something that's for sure. Stream just went down but it's done that several time so far. Timed out or something.  They're pretty timely in getting head counts from around the place. They also mentioned a .50 rifle in place,(tower).  They're going to start getting punchy soon. Most haven't slept since yesterday morning. Dangerous time there. Start seeing stuff and then shoot at it. 

 

This is one of those situations where I think that what's needed, is time.

Assuming there's a perimeter set up, and hostages removed, then everybody in there was exactly two choices:

1). Die

2). Go talk to the nice judge.

I think if I'm the cops, my attitude is "hey, guys, I get paid by the hour. Take all the time you need, to think about it."

Set up a perimeter, and let Al Gore talk to them till they fall asleep.

[Corcaigh]

Patton Oswalt sums it up in a tweet ... poetry:

 

Ammon Bundy stares from the back of a police van. Will his cause be remembered? 

A heron glides through the moonlight, clutching a dildo.

 

 

https://twitter.com/pattonoswalt/status/692210802963644416

[PCS]

 Follow

John SepulvadoVerified account‏@JohnLGC

.@OPB was told by FBI that we were on our own -- essentially stuff is going down and we need to move.

 

•  
  

[PCS]

Older guy in Refuge just drove up to help replace batteries to radios. He was very excited and animated as he shared news that he "heard" other "militia" are on the way and will drop via parachute like navy seals to join them.  Meanwhile,most vocal and visible of Militia that have been there the past few weeks,Oathkeepers/PPN have basically sent out "orders" for all "patriots" heading into the area to stand down until more details emerge.  I just heard them discuss how the governor will pardon them because the American People will demand it.  He's talking on the phone right now and said that God directed to this day. He's bound and determined to make his stand there and die there. Convinced that help from around the country is on the way. He was born for this. They're going to go down in history. This is the second American Revolution. I think he's talking to his parents. 

 

Edit. He was talking to his mom. 

[Destino]

Older guy in Refuge just drove up to help replace batteries to radios. He was very excited and animated as he shared news that he "heard" other "militia" are on the way and will drop via parachute like navy seals to join them.  Meanwhile,most vocal and visible of Militia that have been there the past few weeks,Oathkeepers/PPN have basically sent out "orders" for all "patriots" heading into the area to stand down until more details emerge.  I just heard them discuss how the governor will pardon them because the American People will demand it.  He's talking on the phone right now and said that God directed to this day. He's bound and determined to make his stand there and die there. Convinced that help from around the country is on the way. He was born for this. They're going to go down in history. This is the second American Revolution. I think he's talking to his parents.

Amazing how strong they cling to their delusion. Parachuting in? They wouldn't show up when this started, for a month of time when they were begging for support, but now they are coming in like an action movie? Pretend time is over, I hope these clowns realize it before anyone else ends up dead.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

They kind of remind me of my friends and I playing make believe whatever when we were 8.

[PCS]

No. They most likely won't. The truly believe in what they're doing for one reason or another.  And there are many like them out there of course. They also bought into the story about Lavoy being assassinated and basically have said all LE are fair game now.  

 

Also there is this. 

 

https://www.facebook.com/Assemblywoman-Shelly-Shelton-435691143246699/

 

 

 

 

Assemblywoman Shelly Shelton

8 hrs · 

In any given generation there are men who are willing to stand for what they believe. Most of the time they are demonized and the uninformed are made to believe they are criminals.

From Moses who killed an Egyptian for abusing his people, to Jesus who died on a cross as a condemned criminal, many of those who operate outside the box and promote love and justice over the current form of government are treated as outcasts and many times murdered.

Today we were reminded that the power of evil is still alive and well as LaVoy Finicum was gunned down and murdered in Oregon. LaVoy was a man who had documented the suffering to which he and his family had been subjected, via the heavy hand of the government, through his writings and his videos.

Unlike his executioners the value of his life didn't depend on the value of his salary or his pension. The value of his life came from his sacrifice for others. When he saw similar injustices imposed on the Bundy family he went to help. When he saw injustice towards the Hammonds in Oregon the value of his life was demonstrated daily as he promoted change to stop the injustice.

His position always remained steadfast. His offense was education and action. His defense was his God given 2nd amendment right.

Recently he showed his concern for those who had previously been abused by the same government by providing video evidence that proved the Paiute artifacts in Oregon were safe and available for them to finally possess as their own - even as the Paiute, having been beaten down into submission and reliance on the government, spoke badly of him. Moses suffered the same fate as those who were afraid of freedom, preferring dependence, turned against him in the wilderness.

Lavoy Finicum was a hard working rancher and family man. He was the definition of a patriot and a Godly man of love and kindness. He represented the spirit of patriotism, justice, bravery and honesty that didn't put "getting home safe to his family" over integrity. Men like that have defended and built great civilizations for centuries. Today they are almost extinct.

For any who feel he was a criminal, like those who felt Moses and Jesus were criminals, I would implore you to investigate the peaceful work that Lavoy did in his life from the Bundy Ranch where thousands protested without a shot fired, to today in Oregon, where the shots fired came from the government at an unarmed Lavoy Finicum.

Lavoy will be missed by our family. He will either be the first of many to stand up against the corrupt government we have created or he will be the last to stand.

Time will tell.

 

 

 

**************

 

 

Someone just tweeted swat and others go through a roadblock. News reporter was using her phone to record their news van approaching a road block when a voice from the roadblock said, "Put the phone down". She did.  

[PCS]

Okay. Live feed back up. These guys are very agitated now. They know the press has been asked to move back. Trackhoe is working hard and it appears they're spooning up dirt and digging in. Calling for vets to fight for their country there. Telling them to get there and get some. If anyone tries to block them from coming,kill them. 

 

Pictures from Burns Airport shows a blackhawk,(there's  two),and armored vehicles ready to go. 

[tshile]

It doesn't really sound like they're handling the media very well...

 

I'm one to give the benefit of the doubt to the FBI in this case, but they're not really doing themselves any favors if they are indeed stopping the media that's there from recording what is going on.

[PCS]

They didn't stop the media. Just told them that if they stayed,they're on their own.  

 

They just spotted a drone,(there has been one there and it filmed them a few days ago),and tried to shoot it down just now. Trackhoe continuing to dig. 

 

 

Bigger guy who talked to his mom just said He knows his "brother"s are coming but he won't say from when and where. Said don't be afraid of the roadblocks. Just get out and shoot them.  He just stated that his wife is there with him. 

 

 

 

A convoy just entered the refuge, vehicles loaded with latrines, snow plow and concrete barricades #Oregonstandoff

[Larry]

They should send in Hueys. With speakers playing "Ride of the Valkeryes".

And when they all come out to greet their reinforcements, arrest them.

[Destino]

What's up with the major news networks barely covering this? This is normally something they'd be running with 24 hours a day. CNN has been all Trump news.

[GoDeep81]

Any link to "live feed"?? All I find/see are still pics and uploaded video?

[tshile]

What's up with the major news networks barely covering this? This is normally something they'd be running with 24 hours a day. CNN has been all Trump news.

 

Is it possible the FBI talked to them beforehand and they actually decided not to fan the flames on this one?